Attitudes towards children-how do the cultures differ??

[Eclipsepearl]

Here in France, it's a very un AP attitude. Baby carriers are rarely used (and only front packs or whatever). Children are considered possessions and are to be controlled. Scolding for every tiny detail, etc.

You can imagine the clashes I have over this, especially since I'm quite AP in such an environment. Luckily, so was my mom so I get support at home, as well as my friends back in California.

I was just wondering, do any of you run into problems with this? Does it BUG you the attitude towards discipline, crying, holding, etc. is different towards yours'? I know some AP parents run into this right in their own country so it's not unique to intercultural relationships.

By contrast, some of you might get more support for your parenting style. Feel free to chime in too!

[pear-shaped]

This is a great idea for a thread! My dd is only 2.5 so I'm still just noticing and figuring out the different what typical parenting is like in Italy. I wouldn't say that the typical attitude is completely un-AP here, though there are some things that go very much against AP principles, at least as I understand them.

On the positive side, I think cosleeping is pretty common and accepted. Breastfeeding of infants is really encouraged (though health care providers generally give ridiculously bad advice meaning that most women don't succeed. I also think Italians really appreciate childhood and want to let children be children- for example, schools teach reading later here than they do in my home country.

Another example of this is not very positive- parents and grandparents (who tend to do a lot of the parenting here) are often very indulgent...at the same time there is a lot of scolding, which seems contradictory. What I see a lot of is adults basically creating the sorts of behaviors that then make them angry when they finally lose their patience. Does that make sense?

As for other un-AP aspects, there is great emphasis on early weaning and the introduction to solids involves spoon-feeding pretty much exclusively, at least in the region where we live. People were (and continue to be) shocked that I let my dd eat with her hands. Also there's the tendency to make baby/kids foods even into early childhood rather than just giving children what their parents eat if its age appropriate. It's like they have this idea that the food adults eat is bad for children.

The very structured weaning is just one example of not following babies' and childrens' cues. The worst example of it is making children follow adult schedules. I know many toddlers and young children who are perpetually irritable because they are always overtired (no naps, up until midnight and later, then off to school in the morning.) Mealtimes are another example of this...there is the expectation that they should eat lots at two mealtimes and not really snack or graze much during the day. That may work with some kids, it doesn't for my dd and I've yet to meet one for whom it does, really!

I rarely see anyone babywearing. They're really into carriages and strollers here. The ideal baby is one that doesn't need to be held because then its easier for mom to cook and clean. When I used to tell people about how many hours a day I used to hold my high needs dd, to a one everyone asked, 'how do you cook?'

Homeschooling is pretty unheard of. Children are sent to preschool typically at 3 sometimes earlier even if there is a sahp (in Italy that will almost always mean sahm!) My dd will be going too, in just a couple of weeks...I am really sad about it but I feel soooo much pressure and I need to find work anyway. But everyone talks about how its so important to send them so that they can be 'socialized.' I question that with people but it's an idea that is treated like fact so no one will even discuss it!

I've noticed that parents tend to be really overprotective and even micromanage their children's lives, often even into adulthood. I think this is similar to what you said about treating children as possessions and controlling them.

Overall, I think there is a very positive attitude toward childhood that would seem to fit really well with AP, but then somehow in practice, they do a lot of things that aren't AP at all.

I've noticed that people tend to be quite impressed with my dd (in terms of her diet, her level of independence (obviously not terribly high because she's still little, but I mean her ability to do things like put on her own shoes, stuff like that) and her confidence (partially due to her character I'm sure, but I like to think it also has to do with my meeting her needs and helping her create a secure attachment), but they often think what I do is weird or unhealthy. So they like the results but not the methods.

[physmom]

While DD has mostly grown up so far in the US she's spent about 5 months in Germany and DH's side of the family is Brazilian so I can speak a bit about those two countries (but I'm not an expert since my observations come from such sort periods of time and mostly from immediate family).

Germany:

I really don't know much about the typical family since most of my friends there don't have young kids. But I do see a lot of moms that nurse and certainly there's carriers around too. I've even gotten questions on the street about DD when she's in a carrier. It's also very, very environmentally friendly so you could find tons of wooden toys (although they obviously have a lot of plastic toys around too). The toy stores seemed to focus a lot on pretend play toys too. Basically, we had a lot of fun looking for toys there.

Nobody there really questioned our parenting style. We've never gotten any comments about extended nursing or co-sleeping from friends so I assume it can't be that weird? It also seems pretty norm for moms to stay home at least the first year with the kid.

Brazil:

Ok, most of this is filtered through DH and also what I know of his family. Breastfeeding is common (and just going to the mall I saw tons of mothers nursing kids of all ages without covers). However, supplementing is common too and normally done with nursing. Also, kids get solids pretty early on and c-sections rates are somewhere between 50-70% (according to friends I have no clue if those stats are accurate). Cosleeping seems pretty normal and DH's uncle has a son who is 14 and still sleeps with them! Baby wearing I didn't see much there but I did see a ton of moms carrying their babies in their arms.

DH's family (no clue how normal this is) is, in general, VERY wary of doctors and don't believe anything they say. I guess, that's not necessarily un-AP just something I've noticed.

Oh, and they are VERY authoritarian and micromanaging. I also get the impression that kids aren't allowed to experiment a lot and try things on there own. People think I'm incredibly strange for letting DD explore and get dirty. She's already more independent than a cousin of hers who is 12 and her mom still cuts up her food for her and forces her to eat and basically does her homework for her!

[texmati]

DH was born in india-- very AP. Dh hates the idea of cribs, play pens, baby sitting, and we are now butting heads over putting up some sort of gating system to keep DS in the living room!

I didn't realize how different even my expectations are from my coworkers, for example (I'm second gen). For example, I never expected DS to sleep in his own bed/room before age 2, and I didn't expect for me to get any sleep before that time either.

[ewe+lamb]

Well I'm scottish and dh is north african and we live in france, I'm very AP and have been since - well forever, anyway, there are loads of things that bug me - lol, I knew the minute we'd touched down and were in the airport that we were in france the familar 'tu va tomber' - you're going to fall; resounded in my ears!

We co-sleep, breastfeed tandem nursed, carried the whole lot, folk started out thinking I was mad but now that they are seeing the results well, at least it's planted a seed, lots more mothers are carrying their little ones now, I just reckon that france - and italy - I lived there for 4 years are about 20 years behind other parts of europe!! It's a shame about the breastfeeding rates but again with the horrendous information that drs give out really you can't expect anything else, baby steps .....

[cappuccinosmom]

In dh's culture, behavior is very AP, mostly out of necessity--co-sleeping, EC, extended breastfeeding, babywearing. Babies get every need met and are not disciplined or trained.

But the emotional side of things is very suppressed (affectionate touch is something that is totally private), and harsh corporal punishment is normal. Also, toddlers are often cared for by (slightly) older siblings, and children who aren't in school are working by age 6-7 (childcare, cattle/goat herding, scavenging, street selling, farming, etc). By 4-5, there's a shift from total need-meeting to "It's a hard world. Grow up already".

That's not to say parents don't love their children and feel emotionally attached to them. And there is difference based on personality (I met dh's uncle, and he was a very emotionally open and sweet, and renowned in the area for his kindness and loving nature) as well.

Dh and I are still working out cultural differences. We were in agreement on infant care, co-sleeping and breastfeeding and the like. But the meet-every-need-immediately idea was new to me, and it took a while to get used to it. Also, with dh working, I was left to do that myself and came very close to insantiy with the sleep deprivation. When I wanted to (gently) sleep train at about 1 yo, he thought I was harsh. But then our oldest turned 4 and suddenly dh was all over him, pushing him to "man up" and stop being a baby, and took a very harsh attitude towards him, and not being affectionate with him.

Over the years we started moving towards each other and gradually met in the middle. With each subsequent child he softened a little, and I got more comfortable with the AP lifestyle.

I have no idea what my in-laws would think of our family life. They are very tolerant, polite people so I don't imagine I'd hear anything about it. My parents think dh is rather harsh but understand where he's coming from and see that I balance him out well.

[SubliminalDarkness]

My DH's background's culture sounds much the same as cappucinomom's husband's. My DH is from Pakistan. And there, they coslept until they were 8-10, were full-term breastfed(not sure how long DH nursed but his youngest brother didn't wean until he was nearly 5), cross-nursed(that we can figure out, DH was breastfed by at least three of his aunts), and so on.

But yes, when there was punishment, it was very harsh. My DH's family was odd with him and he was allowed to really run wild. He got away with a lot he shouldn't have, and when they did crack the whip it came down in a big way. There is also not tons of hugging, kissing, vocal expressions of affection.... etc.

I was raised very standard American. Bottlefed, slept in a crib, CIO, baby swing/bouncy seat, spoon fed baby cereal at 4 months, and so on. My parents were just very conventional in every imaginable way. I was put in ballet, then softball as well. School was very important. Piano lessons. Yada yada. I was the only child, so I was doted on, but things were still very strict.



Yes, we do clash on some things. DH very much agrees with AP principles. Breastfeeding and cosleeping, along with babywearing, were very much supported by him. I did have to do some explaining of why strollers weren't good and why you shouldn't wear a baby in a Bjorn facing out, but once I explained it, he got it.

Now with the kids getting older.... DH is more passive than I think is right. I think he also puts too much energy into telling the kids how awesome they are and not enough into directing their talents towards success.

[sky_and_lavender]

One thing I really love about my husband's Lebanese culture is how kid-friendly it is. It is normal to bring kids out in public, people are friendly towards them, and there is a lot of physical affection and loving words shared with babies and children. Also, there is a largely family network that families rely on for care and support.

BUT the middle class norms are practically the opposite of attachment parenting because many families have foreign maids who often take care of kids, breastfeeding beyond a couple of months is not that common (doctors are informed mostly by formula companies, it seems), and neither is cosleeping. (The maid situation in Lebanon is really sad--the maids have few legal rights and some have kids back in their home country they are working to support. It is not uncommon for maids to have nervous breakdowns or to be abused by their employers. This does not seem like a good child care arrangement!)

When I visited when our baby was a few months old, I bf'd constantly, including in public, and while I never got an negative remarks or looks (and in fact was treated a bit like royalty), it was clear that I was not normal to them! My mil was very, very tolerant and supportive but clearly thought I was a little too attached.

In terms of discipline, in my husband's family, corporal punishment is not normal, and bad behavior is described to the child as unacceptable and then he is redirected. But everything is so extremely praise-based, all about getting kids to learn academic tasks at early ages and telling them "chatra"--which means "smart kid." Yuck!

Now that my baby is a toddler, we're going back to Lebanon for visit. It will be interesting to see how people respond to her and to our way of interacting with her.

[Owen'nZoe]

My husband is Palestinian, raised in Saudi Arabia and Jordan. We just got back from a visit to Jordan yesterday. I'm going to ramble here I'm sorry - blame it on jetleg and the fact that I'm still processing a lot of what we saw/experienced:

-My MIL is the only person who comments directly on our parenting style, and she is generally very supportive. She tells everyone that I am so patient and gentle with the kids, and take a lot of time to explain things. Many times she's said "If my child had done 'x', I would have told him to shut up/smacked him," and believe me, she is a very loving, affectionate mother. She says that she likes the 'American' way of parenting better (I'm the only American parent she has much contact with, so for better or worse, she assumes that everything we do is the norm in the US).
-No one has ever said this, but I do get the sense that people think we are a bit too indulgent and lenient with our kids. In some cases they are probably right (materially, my kids are coming from a place of privledge and have too much; also, sometimes we do fall into letting my 3-year-old run the show because he is just so strong-willed) , but other times I prefer our way (for example, I do let the kids negotiate with me, because I think helps them build important negotiation skills. I think it is better for everyone than just telling them how it is going to be.)
- People there think I'm strange for extending nursing - they consider it very old-fashioned. As my 70-year-old mother-in-law says, it is something her grandmother's generation did. That said, until age 2, everyone thought it was wonderful, because the Koran talks about nursing to 2. After age 2, they thought it excessive.
- On previous visits, I found what S-and-L wrote about children in public to be absolutely true. I've always loved the way young Arab men (teens on up) would come up to my older son when we were in public and talk and play to him. I couldn't imagine many young American men taking such an interest in a baby or toddler! This time, people weren't nearly as friendly to the kids. I don't know if people are less friendly now because of the war, or whether it was because my youngest son is blond and fair and looks foreign (my older son looks more 'Arab').
- My older son is 6 now, and just a gentle soul. We got negative comments when he sat in my lap or when I comforted him when he cried. He also had trouble playing with the other kids there, because they were just too rough (he was injured by kids everytime he tried to play, once rather seriously). Parents didn't say anything when their kids hit or pushed - I think it is just considered the norm for how kids play with one another.
- As S-and-L mentioned, one nice thing is that children and normal child behavior are just expected and accepted in places (like nice restaurants, airplanes) where they are not in the US. Many of the nice Arab restaurants in Jordan have a children's play room with coin-opperated rides and bumper cars and the like, so the children have something to do while the parents socialize.
-Also, as S-and-L mentioned the 'smart' thing drives me nuts. And the maid situation is similar. When we'd go to amusement parks or the bumper cars at one of the restaurants mentioned above, the parents would have the maid go on the rides with the kids, so they didn't have to.

I hope this didn't sound too negative. Like I said, I just got back, and these are just the differences that I'm trying to work through in my head right now.

[AllisonR]

Great thread. I've got nothing but positive to say about AP and attitudes towards children here. Maybe it because I just hang around similar people, or maybe it because I don't really give a hoot what other people think about the way I parent, so I wouldn't notice if people thought I my parenting was odd or unusual. Mostly I am just grateful.

People mostly stay out of other people's business, and have the attitude that if it works for you then it doesn't matter what I think about it. BF is encouraged. Everything else is up to the individual family to decide for themselves - like co-sleeping or not....Parents get a year paid maternity leave, which means the husbands can take some, or most of that time as well. It is still mostly the moms, due to BF and habit, but more and more fathers take a good chunk of this time.

[Geist]

Germany:

I really don't know much about the typical family since most of my friends there don't have young kids. But I do see a lot of moms that nurse and certainly there's carriers around too.

Now a glance from a different part of Germany. My host family lives in former East Germany and they're definitely not AP, nor is my friend who has a little boy. It's very much sleep training, sleeping in a different room, breastfeeding for a year then weaning with early solids. A lot of the times babies are weaned at 6 months and fed a "Folgemilch," which is like formula, only cheaper and less nutritious. Although my friend bought a Didymos sling on my recommendation, she never used it and when her son was a few weeks old and I was there visiting, I never saw them holding their baby, ever. He was always in the stroller, dressed so well he was sweating with a blanket over the stroller so no one could see him When he would get hungry and cried she would just rock the stroller to calm him and "hold him off a few more hours" because he needed to be on a schedule. Needless to say, she only nursed 6 weeks because of supply issues.

Meanwhile, I get lots of comments about how spoiled Haakon is because I carried him every where when he was 9 months, had no stroller, he didn't eat many solids, he slept with me, etc. The only part of my childrearing they agreed with was the elimination communication because they did something similar with their kids (no disposables in the DDR and washing cloth diapers is a pain, you know) and they approved of me letting him run around half naked, but other than that, he was never dressed warmly enough for their liking . This year (when DS was almost 2) and we were there, the comments were, he's still nursing? He's not eating? You spend so long putting him down to sleep, you should just do what your friend does and leave him in a crib with a few toys until he falls asleep!

Compared to that, Finland where my husband is from is a lot more AP: my husband's parents coslept with their kids and nursed (she even nursed my sister in law til she was 18 months, at which point she left at a few days to wean her :P), but other than that, I nursed my son way too long, needed to just leave him afew days to wean and very few people wear their babies, strollers are the norm. Other than that, things were very kid friendly: play places in malls, stores, restaurants...even government offices have a place in the corner with toys for kids! Bathrooms everywhere had little potties for potty training kids on and sprayers to wash their butts off

[sraplayas]

Here on the border in Mexico.

Wow. It is impossible to speak for "Mexico", let alone the border. I can share my experiences, though.

We've had both of our children since living here and have been AP/crunchy all the way. (BTW mothering has saved my sanity more times than I can say!).

Breastfeeding-- I nurse discreetly in public and have rarely been stared at. Various moms have mentioned to me that they found nursing to be great/the best thing, etc. However, there is a hard push for formula especially among people with less means. It is crazy b/c formula is so $$. However, I cannot recall even one instance of a mom BFing in public.

Babywearing--We've worn both kids habitually and with great joy/success. I still get tons of comments from people. With the mayawrap, I just say how great the "rebozo" is (a long, wide, cotton piece of cloth used for many things including babywearing). I don't see alot of other people wearing their babies here but I do recieve positive feedback from others when I do.

AP styles--Interesting b/c though it may not be intentional, DD's school incorporates many values that I consider to be "AP" and it is a traditional Mexican school. Typically, though, it is very common for kids to be indulged quite a bit vs. an AP-friendly way of guiding/directing, etc.. (sorry if that's not too clear). Children are cherished here and I think that's just the flip-side. So much of AP, IMO, is "tuning in" to your child. This is harder to quantify. Something to think about!

Wow, there's so much more to AP life but that's a little glimpse into what I have seen/experienced. This is a great thread and I'd love to hear the experiences of more moms and even moms in Mexico b/c I know that so much depends on region.

[mt_gooseberry]

In regards to AP, there are both wonderful and terrible things about Mexico. When I was taking Spanish in school, we were always taught in the cultural lessons how children in Mexico are taught about respect and responsibility by there parents. Well, if that was ever true, it is not now! I have never seen such naughty, disrespectful children in my life, and I worked at two different daycares for years, so I know about misbehaving kids. I have a 3yo stepdaughter in Mexico who hits, screams, and swears at her parents, her grandparents, and anyone else who tries to guide her, and no one does anything, on the contrary, they think it is cute and funny. One time at the park she kicked a soda at a mother and her tiny baby and it hit them. My husband did nothing and I was so embarrassed. Discipline = threatening to smack them but never following through. Also, they shove candy and pop down babies' throats. When I don't allow them to do that with my daughter, they roll their eyes like I'm some crazy gringa. I can go on and on about the behavior...like a previous post mentioned, there is a difference between gentle AP guidance and spoiled indulgence. When my 2yo niece throws a fit, her mom gives her candy to make her stop! I saw 6mo babies drinking soda! And EVERY child uses a bottle until they are about 4 or 5yo. They think it's crazy that my 9mo can drink from a cup like a big girl!

However, I never got anything but support when it came to breastfeeding, and I loved that I could do it anywhere without covering up...even in the middle of Mass! Unfortunately, formula is widely promoted in Mexico, and many women don't or can't breastfeed after the first few weeks. They thought my babywearing was amusing because only the native women do that there, and there I was, a little gringa, wearing my baby! Still, lots of them seemed intrigued if not impressed by that. I have been told that I hold her too much. My husband thought I was crazy when I began EC. But they don't seem to have any problems with cosleeping. AP can be done successfully in Mexico, but you really have to be careful when your kids aren't with you, or they'll end up with a bottle full of Coke!

[Intoit]

Looking at Mexico, I've seen it go other ways as well. Maybe it's because my only view is of where DH is from, a tiny village in a rural area up in the mountains, neighboring other villages of completely indigenous populations (I was actually surprised at the number of people I met there that spoke little or no Spanish). Also just as in the US, I saw examples of both good and bad parenting. I had the pleasure of being introduced to many households, nearly all with infants or young children in them. Most children I met were very respectful of their elders and of guests in the home. Extended breastfeeding is the norm there, and children often wean from breast to cup. Cross nursing also seems very acceptable there as well. Co-sleeping and family bed is the norm until the children reach age 5 or older. 

Babywearing with a traditional rebozo is very common, although there does seem to be a *little* bit of trending in the youngest generation of parents towards using carseats more often without the use of a vehicle, this I only saw a couple of times but it seemed to be a pretty novel idea for those with money. I saw not a single stroller ever where I was, babies and children are worn or carried. From what I saw, I would definitely say that the children are indulged but not always spoiled. Most discipline I saw consisted of explaining why behavior was bad and redirecting the child. The sentiment is that "your children will be how you raise them to be" so it's better to teach them wisely and not with anger because they may not know any better. I did see things that made me shudder and cringe as well... just bad examples of parenting, or lack thereof, including smacking or forceful punishment, but that was a rarity, and it seemed that parents who did that were frowned upon in parenting skills, even though what they did was "their business".

I think what influences much of this is the way of life there. Family is very integral, life is not the easiest. A lot of physical work goes into bringing food into the home and preparing meals. There is not much money or jobs. Older children are usually expected to contribute to the household with chores, cooking, taking care of younger siblings, etc. Self sufficiency is learned at an early age. Without the money to receive a complete education through high school, many kids look at leaving home to enter the workforce at the age of 15 or 16. Many teenage girls idealize having a family of their own. I think a lot of things will change as modern influences make its way into this areas culture.

Edited by Intoit - 11/26/10 at 9:51pm

[newsolarmomma2]

Im in Baja, just South of TJ. it may only be 12 miles away from US, but its totaly different in many ways.

My FAVORITE thing about Mexico is how much everyone loves babies and kids. No matter where I go, shops, restaurants, etc, everyone wants to hold my son, even my DH friends carry him around and play with him. When hes crabby, a few of DH friends will carry him around the house talking to him to give me a break. Its nice. You can take babies and kids everywhere with no attitude. I was at my fav french restaurant for Valentines day last year and most couples had tiny babies or kids with them. You would never see this in the US! The family is considered MOST important, and is treated as such.

As for BF or FF, it seems to depend on class and work schedule. I dont know many wealthy Mexicans, but the few I do would NEVER BF, they think its for peasants. On the flip side, middle and working class Mexicans all seem to BF, as formula is expensive and not widely available. Theres a good selection at the pharmacy, or one choice at the local quickie marts, OXXO, but Ive not seen it at geocery stores, etc. I think its expected that kids eat mushy solids at a young age, my fav taco shop always gives me mini plantains and a little spoon for my son when we eat there. He looks older, since hes 21#, 25", but hes not quite 5 months old. (Im now a FFF and feed solids, so this is welcomed. He eats bits of what we eat, unless its very spicy or raw.)

Other things are more common, like cosleeping and babywearing, though its not called this. There are shops for herbs and organic food, all natural products here too. people are much less wasteful, I dont know if this is intentional but its nice. Also, kids are often, but not always, more independant earlier than many of their US counterparts. The less money a family has, the more independant their kids are. It reminds you of how much kids are really capable of. Im a free range parent, so this is great for our family. The parents I know are either indulgent or strict, not much in between. PI think discipline vaies a LOT.

I love living here, I feel you have more freedom to do what you want wih your kids. CPS isnt coming because you let your kid walk to the store alone.

I saw someone comment on Brazils CS rate, and they are correct, It is well over 50%. Vaginal birth is considered barbaric and old fashioned, so as long as you can afford it, you have a CS.