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Help me think through this massive expenditure...

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
So, the background: We have a 1911 Victorian. We bought it as a fixer-upper, and have done some work on it, but much of the structure is still original. There is zero insulation, and with cedar shake siding, and no heat, winters are cold (although cold here is not below freezing).

So we're at the stage of needing to reside the house. At the same time, we can have the house insulated (while the siding is down, it's a minor expense to add insulation in all the walls - much cheaper than tearing down the inside just to insulate). Last winter DS and I spent the whole winter in 1 room (the warmest in the house). Well, now he's mobile that isn't going to fly, so we need to figure something out.

I had the contractor out yesterday to give us a rough quote on tearing down the siding, insulating, fireproofing, waterproofing, doing the shear paneling (earthquake safety), and putting in new siding (concrete shingles, which are a 50 yr product). This would include the cost of doing whatever minor repairs cropped up as they were doing this, but would include fixing the 6 windows that were installed incorrectly (which he pointed out to me - I didn't know they were the wrong type of window). I about had a heart attack when he quoted me $60-70K - that was about 3x what I was expecting.

DHs knee-jerk reaction was no. But in reality, we have the equity in the house to cover it (we wouldn't be upside down, I mean), and doing this is important for the integrity of the house, and getting it to last another 50 years (this is probably our lifetime house). The problem is coming up with the cash.

If we took that much out of the HELOC, we would max it out and still probably have to come out of pocket a bit - and then worry about the HELOC payment every month, and not having that to fall back on in case something blew up (no way we're going to do that, IOW). The other option is to cash out our stocks which are actually doing good right now, and that would give us about $30K cash (according to today's stock market quote) and take the rest out of the HELOC.

My problem is deciding if it's worth it. Those stocks have been our fall back plan for years. And we were very lucky that they didn't tank like the rest of the country. If we do this, we have nothing else to fall back on (we wouldn't be touching our savings, but the stocks have always been the "untouchable" nest egg).

I mean realistically, this would make winter (and summer) much more comfortable in the house, we wouldn't be freezing our butts off, and we also wouldn't have to worry about the exterior for another 15 years (when it would need another coat of paint - we've already done the roof). But is it worth wiping out reserves to do this?

And please don't tell me to go get another quote - that is in the plan, but the first step is deciding if we're willing/able to pay this much or whether we shelve this project for another few years down the road. I don't want to waste anyone's time if we're not seriously planning on doing this.

So - anyone have any thoughts on that?
post #2 of 27
I'm curious how you made the jump from having the contractor out for a quote on siding and adding insulation to "tearing down the siding, insulating, fireproofing, waterproofing, doing the shear paneling (earthquake safety), and putting in new siding (concrete shingles, which are a 50 yr product)".

I'm having difficulty in understanding how they would replace the siding and it not be waterproof. When you say "fireproofing", what exactly do you mean? I know on the roof if flashing isn't added during construction/roof replacement you can have gaps where wood is exposed that can catch fire (fireworks fun gone bad).

Is the shear paneling truly necessary (required by code section) or is it something you want to make yourselves feel better? The house has stood this long.

Is there a possibility you could set a firm date for the contractor to come out, rent a dumpster and remove the old siding yourselves to reduce the cost?

Liz
post #3 of 27
The cost you were quoted doesn't especially surprise me for what you are describing, but like the pp said, where you started with the project and where you ended up were light years apart. I find that whenever I'm faced with remodeling decisions it's very easy to go from a reasonable job to a gigantic job in ten seconds if I'm not careful.

If I were you, I'd get a quote for insulating and doing a cheaper siding, and maybe doing the windows. I'm good with vinyl siding, which is much cheaper and lasts a long time, although I know many people don't. But if I'm not mistaken, even wood would be cheaper than the shingles you are considering. I wouldn't obsess over the 50 year thing. If you and/or your dh are handy, you could install new windows yourself and save a lot on that.

My guess is that the price would be much closer to your original guesstimate. Then I would decide if it was really worth it.
post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
To clarify, the only add-on here is the insulation. The rest is what is needed to do the job right and/or meet code. The fireproofing is because the houses are so close (<5 ft), the city would require it. The shear paneling is not necessarily code AFAIK, but the fireproofing and shear paneling is a single step, and actually a good chunk of the cost.

I will be asking the contractor what the price diff is if we go with cedar instead of cement, but i'm not counting on the diff being huge for the purposes of this discussion.

The windows are actually new, and replacing them again is not in the budget, since the one that is the biggest problem is a custom picture window. Fixing them is not a huge deal, im just irritated that they installed the wrong type. And neither dh or i is the slightest bit handy.
post #5 of 27
What do you mean by the wrong type of windows?

Can you just repaint or restain the siding, replacing any broken pieces as needed?

Is blown in insulation an option?

Is your house protected by any historical regulations? Can you replace the cedar with cement?

I think you need a few more opinions/estimates before you can really decide which direction to go in.
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristeen View Post
And neither dh or i is the slightest bit handy.
And you bought a 1911 fixer-upper? That was brave. How much do the windows add to the cost? Could they wait another year?

(currently living in a 1922 era house with original windows - but waiting to afford new ones....)
post #7 of 27
I read through the whole post, but I still have to say get another quote. I say this as someone rehabbing a structure built in 1894. Quotes can be very, very far apart. So, you may not have to think through this issue in the way you've just described. For example, one person wanted $17K to install our granite countertops. More than we paid for the rock itself! We ended up paying around $4,000. That is a difference of more than 300%!

Also, as someone paying back a HELOC I just KNEW I'd be out of years ago, I will say this: Unless you have the discretionary income in your budget to handle full payments plus changes in interest rates, I would suggest cashing out the stock and going halvsies with the HELOC - or forgoing the HELOC altogether and finding the quote that can be covered by the stock. Alternatively, can you borrow against a 401K? Then, at least you're paying back yourself and you just take the penalty if there is a big disaster, as opposed to the downside of not being able to pay the HELOC.

Mine was interest only for I forget how many years. Well, I just knew we'd be selling my condo and getting out from under that HELOC. Well, then the economy went in the toilet. I was paying 2 mortgages (2 properties: condo plus 1894 house), and then my HELOC went from about $200/mos to the full $700+/mos payment.

That downside scenario can be pretty ugly if you don't have room in your budget. Not to mention the stress and strain it puts on you, your spouse and your marriage, and naturally, then the kids pick up on that stress. And I did not live through the bulk of our rehabbing since we were in my condo.

To find out if your quote is in the neighborhood of reasonable, I'd reach out to an architect if you have one or a referral for one. Ours has been invaluable at helping us identify what a reasonable price range should be.
post #8 of 27
FYI, the earthquake straps are pretty darn important. Older houses basically SIT on the foundation and can slide off fairly easily in a quake or hurricane. The straps tie the house to foundation and increase the families chance of surviving a serious natural disaster.

Has the wiring been checked? If you have knob-and-tube the blown-in will not be possible, until it is replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyMarie View Post
Is blown in insulation an option?
The quote is probably for blown-in. Blown in insulation can be done from the inside OR the outside. 2" holes are drilled every few feet. With the siding off, it makes an enormous amount of sense to blow in insulation at that time, rather than drill and patch plaster from the inside. If she just needed insulation and not siding, the inside job would make sense.

Cristeen, you probably have balloon framing. Blown in cellulose insulation will make a HUGE difference in the leakiness of the house, reducing both heat and AC costs. Do you have electric heat or ???. What are your total annual energy bills? [attic insulation upgrade, btw, will make a much bigger improvement in your AC and heating costs, if your attic is under-insulated.]

Check out this link:
http://www.dsireusa.org/
I believe your state has some efficiency loans at 5% and in some areas a $500 energy audit rebate!

There are also federal energy tax incentives, which may shave a few thousand off of the project.

You can also call your electric utility and ask about free "audits" or special programs.

Ask your insurance agent if the straps and fireproofing will reduce your homeowners insurance costs.

I think you can get lower quotes on the job. Builders in most areas are hurting. You could also re-side one side at a time, if you need to. I would do the whole job including insulationif the siding is really needed, assuming the house is not "underwater" on any current loans. If the house is "underwater" I would not sink money into it. Just my opinion!
post #9 of 27
No real advice, but that quote doesn't sound all that bad for what you are getting done.

Over the last two years we've replaced all the windows in our fixer (which is practically a new house compared to yours 1970's), and had the crawlspace/attic filled with blown insulation. It's helped a whole bunch, not cheap but at some point we had to do something.

We still need to figure out what do do about the wall insulation.......
post #10 of 27
Well, personally I would look at what you are going to save in heating/AC over say the first 3 years. And "subtract" that from the cost of the project.

I know you didn't want advice to get another quote, but we just had a yard project quoted by 3 people and got quots of 1000, 1800, and 2800. Holy crap! When we got a new window put in, we got quotes in a similar range. You may be on the extreme high end for all you know. If you got another quote for 50K would that change your mind about going ahead with the project? Or do you really need it to be 25K to do it this year? That is the question I would ask myself.
post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyLee View Post
Well, personally I would look at what you are going to save in heating/AC over say the first 3 years. And "subtract" that from the cost of the project.
well, when i say we dont have heat, i mean we dont have central anything. Historically we run a space heater in the office all winter and just hang out in there. But now with the little guy, thats not feasible. The rest of the house is typically within a few degrees of the outside temps. Without insulation, installing central heat has been pretty low on the priority list.

And the insulation guy will be here Friday to check the attic.
post #12 of 27
I understand what you mean about getting quotes if you may or may not be serious about a project. I feel the same way, generally.

However, I have to say for some projects those 2-4 quotes actually decided the project for us. I can think of three such projects that simply would not have been done if we hadn't gotten several quotes for the iffy project. I knew I wasn't serious about the project and things kind of landed in my lap, so to speak, where I got one quote. I half-heartedly got 1-3 more (depends on project) and got more excited (and creative with financing) as I was speaking to the people and heard the different ways of accomplishing the same general task, etc. In all of those cases, the quotes varied so much, we were able to swing it (cash only, but often a combination of DIY and professional). I can also think of a few projects that I really DID want to do, but didn't end up doing because the quotes (several) were just not in our price range at that time. Unfortunately, home improvement projects are often this way. You often just don't know until you start getting into the nitty gritty details with real, live people in that trade in your area.

As far as how to finance this particular project goes, I would opt to avoid a big home equity loan that pushes my financial limits. I would also opt to avoid cashing in all my stocks. Therefore, if I were in your shoes and could not DIY part of the project to lower costs and could not (or would not) get additional quotes before deciding to go this route (or this is the best) and didn't want to do part of the project at a time to lower immediate costs, I would nix this project for now. Maybe the timing just isn't right for your family? Or perhaps you just need some time to absorb the current information?

Best wishes!
post #13 of 27
We've been getting quotes for a new gas furnace and central air. The quotes have ranged from $6.5K to a jaw dropping $14K for nearly identical systems.
post #14 of 27
I would get more quotes and look at financing options but a house that does not have central heat needs some serious updating. With no heat you would have a difficult time re-selling if you ever needed to.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra15 View Post
I would get more quotes and look at financing options but a house that does not have central heat needs some serious updating. With no heat you would have a difficult time re-selling if you ever needed to.
ITA with this. Is your heart really in this house? It seems like a tremendous investment and it's not clear to me if you'd get it back in resale.
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra15 View Post
I would get more quotes and look at financing options but a house that does not have central heat needs some serious updating. With no heat you would have a difficult time re-selling if you ever needed to.
its actually not uncommon of houses of this age in this area. With a temperate climate, it hasnt been a concern for 12 yrs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post
ITA with this. Is your heart really in this house? It seems like a tremendous investment and it's not clear to me if you'd get it back in resale.
The house is currently valued at twice what we paid for it. Which is why i said above that even doing this job wouldnt make us upside down. I also said this is most likely our lifetime home, so taking care of it is important if we want it to take care of us for the next 30 yrs.
post #17 of 27
You have central air or window units? Once it is insulated, the house will be warmed up to some extent by cooking and body heat .... so you won't have to hide out in just one room.

Based on this detail I would do the job:
Quote:
The house is currently valued at twice what we paid for it
post #18 of 27
First, get another quote.

My father and mother have always owned fixer upper Victorians (near Chicago) and have recently done some of the work to their current house that you're describing. That quote seems high to me, I will ask my father how much it cost to reside in cement plank. They haven't done the full house, but have done large parts of it recently.

Cedar should be more expensive than cement plank.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
And you bought a 1911 fixer-upper? That was brave.
<shrug> We're not handy but we bought a 1905 house. Some areas, that's just what it is.

OP, the only thing I'd not be sure about is the windows. What exactly is wrong with them? If they are really wrong, can the original installer fix it for you for a reduced price if it was their mistake?

Are there any advantages to dealing with the windows now? Obviously I see the advantages to adding insulation now (and yes, I'd do it) but I don't see why you have to do the windows at the same time as the siding. When we replaced ours, it didn't involve the siding at all.

I don't think it's realistic to be confined to one room in the winter. The insulation should make a difference all by itself even without central heat. Let the light in during the day and close the drapes at night. The heat of the sun, your bodies and cooking will last longer in the insulation.

My neighbors didn't have any insulation either, and in our climate that's crazy (I live in the coldest part of Massachusetts - you bet it goes below freezing, all day every day in the winter). But the husband is handy and he blew in insulation from the outside, and saved something like $200 a month in heating costs right there. You obviously won't save in heating costs, since you don't have any, but it should make a huge difference in livability. The point of a home is to live in it, and feel good and comfortable in it. Feeling warm enough in the winter is a basic part of that. I'd go for it (but like others, a couple other quotes are called for anyway).
post #20 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laohaire View Post
OP, the only thing I'd not be sure about is the windows. What exactly is wrong with them? If they are really wrong, can the original installer fix it for you for a reduced price if it was their mistake?
Are there any advantages to dealing with the windows now? Obviously I see the advantages to adding insulation now (and yes, I'd do it) but I don't see why you have to do the windows at the same time as the siding. When we replaced ours, it didn't involve the siding at all.
for the windows, the 6 windows on the addition dont have exterior sills (the rest of the house does). The windows they used are made for a stucco exterior, and are used when you're replacing windows but keeping the cadings. But in the case of these 6 windows, w no original casings, they should have used a type of window with a built in sill. But at least he pinpointed for me the source of the water we get inside every time it rains... It runs down the window and the window directs it inside the wall behind he siding and then it has nowhere to go but inside the house. When they tear off the siding, they'll retrofit sills on those windows to direct the water flow away from the house. Before they put up the new siding.

Not much point in contacting the company that did it wrong, anymore than theres a reason to contact the co the reroofed and didnt vent the attic. They did it wrong the first time, i dont trust them to get it right the second time.
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