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How to talk your patient into vaccinating... - Page 3

post #41 of 75
Delicateflower, I think we can safely assume that we will probably not see eye to eye on this issue. There are reasons why vaccines can be helpful, the reasons you highlight. However, you have chosen to ignore the downsides of vaccines in the developing world, for whatever reason. (I addressed this in another thread in more detail, however that thread is unavailable at the moment)

Again, I am not saying there is a simple answer.

But the assumption that any developing country is better off with the vaccine being introduced is an assumption that I think requires more careful consideration. The repercussions are not always intended and known. And there are not so good things about vaccines and their consequences.

That is all I am saying.
post #42 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVC View Post
I'm glad they use simple examples like "ham sandwich" to explain things to me because, you know, I get really confused by all those big words doctors sometimes use
When my sister refused the H1N1 vaccine, the doctor at the clinic gave her a couple of websites to go to to research vaccines (because according to the doctor, the only risk from the H1N1 shot was the pain from the needle during injection). One of the websites was the CDCs, but the other was www.chop.edu (Paul Offit! ). She told my sis to go to the latter because the CDCs website was "mainly for doctors and the average person can't understand it or navigate through it." !!!!!!!!
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
Delicateflower, I think we can safely assume that we will probably not see eye to eye on this issue.
I think you are right on that. My favorite charities are the ones that save lives of children in third world countries.
post #44 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Antibiotics aren't effective against measles, because measles is a virus. In fact, almost all vaccines are for viral diseases for just that reason. Plague is not a big deal these days because it's susceptible to antibiotics, and transmission mostly requires fleas and rats.

But, for viruses, Canada is only a few hours on a plane away from anywhere. Look at how fast swine flu spread.
You are assuming that measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox and the flu are something to be afraid of, and to me they are not. So let it come on an airplane if it may. We will be just fine. I am glad the vaccines are available for those that want it, but equally glad I can opt out. Vaccines are implicated in autoimmunity and myself being autoimmune, I just do not want to vaccinate my children. I certainly didnt appreciate the dead baby card at the doctors office when vaccines were questioned, and I also didnt like being lied to about a polio outbreak in Toronto by a nurse. Its hard to trust them when they bully and lie.

I would rather treat a sick child than injure a healthy one. My conscience can handle it better, even if the unforseen happened.

Also some comlications from viruses, are secondary bacterial infections, like pneumonia and can still be treated with antibiotics. Large amounts of vitamin A can reverse some complications, like measles related blindness.
post #45 of 75
Re: Alumimum in formula

The aluminum in formula is quite high actually and scientists are very concerned about that.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2431/10/63
http://www.inhabitots.com/2010/09/03...n-breast-milk/
Quote:
Researchers looked at 15 brands of infant formula sold in the UK including powdered, liquid, cow’s milk-based and soy-based products. Typically, powdered formulas contained more aluminum than liquid formulas. The results showed that infants using the formula would ingest up to 600 mcg of aluminum per day, an amount several times higher than what’s typically allowed in drinking water!

Even though scientists haven’t found a direct link between health issues and aluminum in formula, the possibilities of health problems are concern enough for many considering infants and preemies are a vulnerable bunch. And because infants’ gastrointestinal tracts, blood-brain barrier and kidneys are not yet developed, it’s widely accepted that infants are more vulnerable to aluminum toxicity.
post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
I think you are right on that. My favorite charities are the ones that save lives of children in third world countries.
I'm confused; are you saying that people with different ideas and questions about vaccination campaigns than yours are not interested in saving the lives of children? These are complicated issues, and the fact that vaccine research and vaccine profits are often entwined compounds questions considerably.
post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermoon View Post
I'm confused; are you saying that people with different ideas and questions about vaccination campaigns than yours are not interested in saving the lives of children? These are complicated issues, and the fact that vaccine research and vaccine profits are often entwined compounds questions considerably.
No, just the opinions I'm hearing from one person in particular. But she and I will have to agree to disagree because it's against the UA for me to take issue with her opinion.
post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
I think you are right on that. My favorite charities are the ones that save lives of children in third world countries.
It is perfectly possible to care passionately about the health and well being of children (and communities) around the world and have different opinions on how best to support and help them. Questioning whether vaccines are always the best the choice does not make me not care.

I am raising questions that I do not see discussed. Somehow vaccines became a given that only can do good and any risk associated with them is just not worth taking into consideration.

I relate to the desire to do something and to make the world a better place. I just question the chosen intervention, when it is vaccines. Endorsed without consideration for the risks associated with this practice.
post #49 of 75
post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
It is perfectly possible to care passionately about the health and well being of children (and communities) around the world and have different opinions on how best to support and help them. Questioning whether vaccines are always the best the choice does not make me not care.

I am raising questions that I do not see discussed. Somehow vaccines became a given that only can do good and any risk associated with them is just not worth taking into consideration.

I relate to the desire to do something and to make the world a better place. I just question the chosen intervention, when it is vaccines. Endorsed without consideration for the risks associated with this practice.
Good post, and I agree completely. I suspect that everyone here is pro-helping children in every country around the world (heck, we're all here because of our love of kids, right?). But that doesn't mean all of our methods of helping are going to be the same - nor should they be. Without the huge variety of ideas out there - and discussion about all of them - we'll never come up with a real solution to the problems we face.

Since we're straying a bit from the original topic - I can't even express how frustrated things like the pamphlet in the OP make me. It is things like that make people not trust what doctors tell them about vaccinations. How do you know what's truth and what's propaganda?

I just wish that medical professionals would be open, up front, and honest about vaccinations - for both PRO and CON. There are good reasons to vaccinate, and good reasons not to. It should be the job of the health care industry to educate people as to their choices and the risks associated with each choice - not to bully people into one choice or the other.
post #51 of 75
Thanks for your posts, DelicateFlower, I agree with you completely
post #52 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post

I am raising questions that I do not see discussed. Somehow vaccines became a given that only can do good and any risk associated with them is just not worth taking into consideration.
The risk of dying from the measles vaccine is miniscule. The CDC rates it at less than one in a million doses, but let's assume it's one per million. If every person on the planet gets a dose, six thousand people will have a severe allergic reaction. If every one of them dies (which they wouldn't), that's six thousand people. And in later years the death toll would be lower because only the new babies would need immunization, 1200 deaths per year. And tetanus itself kills 500,000 per year. The intervention is a wonderful thing, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingSky View Post

I just wish that medical professionals would be open, up front, and honest about vaccinations - for both PRO and CON. There are good reasons to vaccinate, and good reasons not to. It should be the job of the health care industry to educate people as to their choices and the risks associated with each choice - not to bully people into one choice or the other.
This. I did not start questioning the vaccine schedule until I saw A) how many my children were "supposed" to receive and, above all, B) how black-and-white, all-or-nothing medical authorities were portraying the issue.
post #54 of 75
OP, this thread has wondered kind of off topic. It has been a while since I was on the recieving end of someone trying to convince me to vaccinate my child with a condescending and uninformed opinion. But I remember just how irritating it was, and just how that attitude is what prodded me to try and figure out why people would lie to try and convince me to change my behavior.

I agree, public health officials and advocates for vaccines are not doing a stellar job of communicating their message. There are reasons to vaccinate. It's just a one size fits all and any risk is negligent attitude that undermines any opportunity for real discussion.

Delicateflower - we seem to have a problem in communicating. Yes, measles vaccines when administered have a one in a million chance of serious adverse events, in the developed world. However, by ignoring contaminated needles, lower IgG passed across the placenta, poor storage of vaccines etc, you are ignoring the risks of vaccination. It simply is not as black and white as number of doses of vaccine equals lives saved.
post #55 of 75
I've never had doctors or nurses be condescending to me. If you approach them with respect for their education and expertise and show them that you understand immunology, statistics and biology they're always very willing to discuss things with you, in my experience.

Ema, have you read the reports, plans and assessments of these programs? Those problems are not ignored. The whole program is designed around minimising or eliminating them (along with the problems of refrigeration). I don't think we're having a problem communicating, you've explained yourself and your priorities very clearly, I think.
post #56 of 75
I've had doctors be condescending to me and unwilling to discuss anything. It certainly wasn't because of a lack of respect on MY end, I can tell you that much. I've had doctors straight up lie to me too and blatantly ignore me when I tell them they are wrong... at that point I probably wasn't very respectful. They got fired.
post #57 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Things may easily spread, but in countries with adequate infrastructure and medical care can be treated. Many on this forum believe that the prevention (in this case vaccines) is worse than the disease (in this case measles).
And, this being a principled position, noone who eschewed prevention would mind bearing the full cost of treatment, right?
post #58 of 75
[QUOTE=Delicateflower;15810408]I've never had doctors or nurses be condescending to me. If you approach them with respect for their education and expertise and show them that you understand immunology, statistics and biology they're always very willing to discuss things with you, in my experience.
QUOTE]

Have you ever told them you are not vaccinating your child? Soemthing tells me no...try it sometime and see how you are treated.
post #59 of 75
Yeah I was an RN...so it's not like I hate them all or something lol. But to say that they'll all honestly treat you with respect if you respectfully tell them that you're not vaccinating? That's nothing but a lie...I have no other way to say it.

This comes from my experiences as a non-vaxing mom who's lived in various states and been to various peds/doctors. I've been thrown out of more offices than I can count. Over the years I've also read some pretty great stories about how nurses and doctors treat non-vaxing moms here on MDC.

Few doctors seem to be great when it comes to dealing with non-vaxing parents, most are eh about it, and many are down right mean and nasty.
post #60 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
And tetanus itself kills 500,000 per year. The intervention is a wonderful thing, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Vaccines are very controversial on MDC. Most people research them, worry about them, and if they give them or not, do so aware of risks. Some members have children or know children that they believe were injured by vaccines (and not just allergies). To say the intervention is a good thing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, and to use to joy smilie is insensitive at best to those who have struggled with the issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
OP, this thread has wondered kind of off topic.

.
Goodness, yes. If I wanted to read about/discuss whether vaccines were appropriate in third world countries I would have started a post about it. This thread was supposed to be about doctors and how or if they condescend to patients. The source cited was Canadian - hardly third world.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
I've never had doctors or nurses be condescending to me. If you approach them with respect for their education and expertise and show them that you understand immunology, statistics and biology they're always very willing to discuss things with you, in my experience.
I have not had doctors condescend to me (although I have had nurses be condescending) - but I have not found them very useful in discussing vaccines or answering my questions. The last time I had a discussion with a doctor on vaccines, I asked her how many children died or had severe reactions of any of the MMR diseases in Canada versus how many children died or had severe reactions to the MMR vaccine. She could not answer me (even though I do know statistic are flawed and things are under-reported), nor could she point me towards any info. Hardly confidence inspiring.
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