Unschooling Chat Sept. 1st-...Sept. 7th?

[annakiss]

Thought I'd reinvigorate this, perhaps. Or maybe this is a stand-alone discussion, in which case I can re-title.

At what point do kids stop just playing? I don't mind at all, but the kids just play a lot. When do they start to get involved with more activities and things willingly? My oldest just turned 8. I'm sort of thinking it will gradually increase towards adolescence from here? We tried swimming lessons this summer (huge fail) and day camp as well (minor fail). That's really the first time we've ever done anything organized.

I volunteer and the kids have given up going with me for that. We'll be swimming on most Fridays this "school" year and maybe Tuesdays in the winter. There are sporadic things I want to attend, but nothing regular and I don't think the kids will want much to participate. I'm sort of over dragging them into trying projects, although I did just buy one of the Janice VanCleave books, which I thought we could work through if the boys want.

My oldest likes to listen to audiobooks on his ipod. His drawing has tapered off. He's getting into spending more and more time with friends though. We play games and build puzzles and watch documentaries and movies and play video games. Well, they play video games. We go to the library regularly, but we don't always get super into things. Aleks is really into mythology and cryptozoology right now.

Sometimes I guess I just wonder if it's "enough" given the crap their cramming down kids' throats in school.

What are your kids doing?

[CrazyCatLady]

No idea about when kids stop playing. DD is still at that age where that's all she does...

She spends hours outside finding bugs, collecting bugs, playing with bugs (even bees). It's amazing all the things she finds and catches considering she has extremely poor vision. Then she makes me google what each thing is, how it lives, and what it eats. Then after a day she lets everything go and starts over again (except our insane snail farm that we've had for months now). I love the alone time this hobby of hers gives me.

Today she taught herself simple addition and also how to add pennies and nickles. She just figured out the difference between cents and dollars. It was all pretty random.

This is year two of unschooling for us and I'm loving it.

[Dar]

Rain played a whole lot until she was... 12, maybe? I'm pretty sure that she spent the majority of her day playing 8 or 9. She did read quite a bit, and play computer games. She played soccer from 5 or 6 to 9 or 10, and at 7 she got interested in theatre (acting, dancing, singing), which gradually took up more and more of her time until by 12 or so she probably spent more time doing that than anything else.

Somewhere around 10 or 11 she started shifting into a more "academic" mindset... prepped for the SAT a bit at 13 and started university classes at 14. Now at 17 she's got a really full schedule - chemistry and French at the community college, World History on her own (she plans to take the SAT Subject Test this fall), playing rugby, interning at the World Aquarium one day a week, babysitting for a darling 3 year old one full day a week (her idea of the perfect job)... and what am I forgetting? She's working on a way to add in some Russian, too...

That's our experience, anyway. Playing most of the time for all those early years seems to have been what she needed - she's definitely on the path she wants to be on now, and she seems likely to continue to succeed...

[kathymuggle]

9 or 10 for my middle daughter, 11 for my son....

[zeldamomma]

I agree with Dar that playing does seem to be what kids need. My oldest is almost 10, and while she still plays a lot, she does some academic stuff too, and knows an amazing amount of stuff. She reads a TON, and that's the source of a lot of her knowledge, but she has definitely learned plenty while playing. She often tells me things that I didn't know. Her "play" has been transitioning away from pretend play, and more towards the kind of play I enjoy-- strategy games, puzzles, etc... and when she's with friends they sometimes go off and talk instead of running around, so I think in a couple years it may not feel like she's playing all the time.

Have you read "The Creativity Crisis" ? Apparently children in the US are significantly less creative overall now than they were in previous generations. I personally blame the lack of free play in so many kids' lives, starting at kindergarten for some of them.

[harrietsmama]

Granted, we are embarking on our first year not going back to school, and my exh is very into organized push, but we signed up for a group of classes that are highly attended by relaxed to unschooling type families. We have Roots & Shoots 1st a few ties a month (conservation group throught he Jane Goodall institute), then the Arts & Crafts, which we just did since it's sandwiched, then Spanish, then a drama/play production group all in one day. I have some unit studies outlined to study loosely. Their dad bought them a million workbooks and an iPad which he filled with all kinds of links and apps etc. I'm going to just let them do most of that when they are with him. We split the week in half and alternate Saturdays. He has a friend of mine watch them one day, and works remotely the other day. So I know they are getting good play time at Rachel's and much self directed time while he is working from home library wherever.

As for what they are actually doing, still mostly play. My 8 yo son is full of questions and wonder though about space and the Pacific ocean. We sat down and made a list a few months ago about what they wanted to learn this year. ds' list was lots of stuff about space - how did we find out the Earth rotates? What are asteroids made of? etc., What do we know about the deepest depths of the Pacific Ocean? and it's creatures etc., he wants to know about animals' day of death, how are glass and mirrors made. long list.

DD is 10 and much more interested in reading, performing, imaginative play, crafty stuff - but on a simple level.

Every once in a great while they get in depth on something, but mostly they are still in play mode. I'm hoping to foster that as much as I can while still satisfying their dad so I can keep them out of school.

[anudi01]

Was just wondering about this the other day...

My oldest is almost 7, a boy, and he is really into play. He will sit down for periods of time to work on something "academic", but this is all at his own choice. But for the most part...he will PLAY, PLAY, PLAY...and then ask me to play with him. I do enjoy watching what they come up with, and I actually think they are pretty creative. We limit TV, although they do get screen time mostly every day from computer...but not much. I was kind of wondering when he would start making a transition...but honestly...I don't want to rush him. How sad to think about not playing anymore. My SILs kids...who are in school (1st and 2nd grade) now...and when they come over...they want to play "school". I'm like, um NO!

Also, my DS who will be 7 in October is not reading yet, but he's getting close. I don't want to push it...but I'm kind of getting that sense of urgency...yk, hoping he will catch on so he can explore in ways that limit him now, by not being able to read proficiently.

Thanks for starting the weekly chat Annakiss. It's always so reassuring to see what everyone is NOT doing! LOL.

[Needle in the Hay]

My son turned 9 last month aHbnd he plays a lot. Lots of pretend games, especially pretend battles. He's big into history, today he was playing "Hundred Years War", but some of his resources for history are the computer game Age of Empires II and other games and dvds, so it's not like he's all academic about it.

He is also really into Greek mythology like your son. He's not reading independently yet, but I read to him everyday. Right now we are reading through all his "You Wouldn't Want to..." series.

He takes swimming and loves it but we didn't attempt it until this time last year and he was really ready. He decided to stay with it and has just started his second year. Every time after the lesson he plays in the water, except last week when he decided to swim 175 meters to build endurance. This week he was back to playing. I think the serious pursuits replacing play is a process, I think I'm just starting to see the very beginnings of it with my son. (eta: I think play is a very valuable pursuit, I just wanted to make that clear)

I wouldn't worry too much about the day camp. My son tried two afternoon camps (3 hours each) at the zoo and was less than thrilled. He liked parts of it, but also said he never wanted to do that again. A science camp he tried was a disaster, but that wasn't his fault. The teacher was really gruff and I was not the only parent dismayed by this. As it turned out she actually nudged my son in the back with her knuckles to push him toward the table to clean up (he was waiting for the paper towels, not just slacking off) so I pulled him and got a refund.

[CrazyCatLady]

I was unschooled a lot as a kid and I'm remembering now that I continued to play (pretending to live outside and be a pioneer, Barbies, polly pockets, etc) until I was 12/13. It's interesting in retrospect because at that age I was already messing around with boys and getting into drugs, yet at home was still playing like I was a little kid.

So kids can play for a good long while I guess. Then the preteen years is where I started getting really serious about studying dance, natural healing, and other stuff that I was interested in. I also started working full time in my early teens.

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady

I was unschooled a lot as a kid and I'm remembering now that I continued to play (pretending to live outside and be a pioneer, Barbies, polly pockets, etc) until I was 12/13.

I remember being really into Barbie & the Rockers when I was in 7th grade and fearful of anyone finding out. I could have sung a verse about my big secret in "Jr. High School Musical"!

[CrazyCatLady]

Oh yeah, I had to hide my playing too. I was the "cool" kid and it would have been a disaster if other kids found out that I still played with Barbies.

[kayla14]

My 11.5 yo dd still plays A LOT! But she has also moved onto more academic things as well. And a lot of times the 2 are very much mixed together!
My 10yo doesn't play much, but she never has. She prefers to hang out doing 'mommy' things.

[Serendipity]

Nic turned 9 in June and still plays all day. He is doing Musical Theater and bass lessons this year and happily goes to homeschool park days and other field trips etc. with our group, but when we're home he's mostly playing.

[Serendipity]

Oh and I do set up activities at home fairly often, like science/craft projects etc.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I
Have you read "The Creativity Crisis" ? Apparently children in the US are significantly less creative overall now than they were in previous generations. I personally blame the lack of free play in so many kids' lives, starting at kindergarten for some of them.

Interesting! And I learned a new world - paracosm! Rain and I both created many paracosms as kids... and a lot of her play (and mine) involved role play.

The article mentioned TV as a reason for diminished creativity, but this hasn't been my experience - or maybe kids use TV in different ways. For Rain, it was often the springboard for imaginative games...

Originally Posted by anudi01

My SILs kids...who are in school (1st and 2nd grade) now...and when they come over...they want to play "school". I'm like, um NO!

But unschooled kids playing school is really fun to watch! Rain used to play school sometimes with her homeschooled and unschooled friends, and it was fascinating to see how they envisioned school - mostly based on what they'd seen on TV or read about in books.

[Piglet68]

My daughter tried to rope her brother into playing "school" a few times. Mostly it was an excuse for her to take centre stage and lecture to her brother about all her favorite subjects, lol.

My kids are 8 and almost-6. They both engage in a lot of imaginative play, though I've noticed over the summer it has tapered off a wee bit for DD because she is really into her art and spends a lot of time drawing. She often does this alone in her room while listening to audio books. DS's form of play involves creative elaborate and complex "games" for his figurines to play - generally based on video games as he loves those, but involving many worlds with different levels and sublevels. Which he will repeat consistently so he has actually got it all sorted out in his head, he's not just making it up as he goes along. He loves to engage in battles and "beat the bad guy" type scenarios with his legos or any other item he can use as a character. OTOH, when DD plays it is usually role-playing as an animal. She'll play "herbivore and carnivore" a dinosaur game she made up, or she'll pretend to be an Orca Whale (her current obsession). She's into Nature so her games generally involve such themes.

Both kids are also really into BrainPop (brainpop.com) these days. DD has been a fan for some time now, but for DS it's a new interest. I'm pretty thrilled about that because he's stretching out into new subjects of interest just from clicking around on the site (we have a subscription through our learning program).

We're getting excited about our upcoming learning year. The kids will be doing swimming, art class (DD), karate (DS), skating, plus our weekly homelearner get-togethers at various parks and venues. We will still have 2 - 3 "free days" per week, which is important to us. We don't like to overschedule ourselves!

[WCM]

Thanks for bringing this up annakiss! I'm not sure if you mean what I think by asking, but for me, it's an interesting topic.

Yes, my kids play. They are 3, 7 and almost 10. When they were younger, I'd easily tout how unschooling has naturally led them to learn and that what they learn truly matters to them, as it is self-initiated, and it is learning for life, again, b/c it is through exp. So without workbooks or anything from us, the older two learned to read and write, spell and do basic math. All the academics others fear kids don't get from home/unschooling. great. no one could criticise unscholing, SEE all they are learning and doing on their own?

but now, not so much. Sorry, things are great, all is great. but I no longer have those stories. Yeah they learned to read. that was years ago. yes, writing and math and spelling too. that was years ago. now? well now we are still playing lego, soccer and fooseball, just like before.

Other homeschoolers (yes, I happen to check out what friends in our community are doing ) are doing projects, or inspired to create experiments (who runs stop signs more, men or women?) or create board games, or are into greek history, or . . . you get my drift.

but the unschoolers I know, all of them, with kids 6-12, are all just hanging out. playing war, playing vids, jumping on the tramp, riding bikes, going to the pool. good times. still playing.


I'm NOT saying one is better, nor that the latter group aren't learning, or that emotional/imaginative is not important. I'm not at all complaining or judging anyone or any learning. I'm just noting that things are different than before. Before, their learning felt immense, so much was going on in their brains, so many things were clicking and interested them. and now it's alot of "what is there to do?" and "I don't want to do that". Fine, all's good, I am still as happy as ever. and they are too. they play, play, play.

I'm totally fine with them NOT creating projects (which birds go to which feeder and why?) or wanting to make something for our annual homeschoolers science-y fair thingy. or take science classes. or want to learn cursive. I just can't help but notice that we are in THIS place, and it is very different from our exp. in the 5-7 year old place, which felt full of learning, and it is VERY different from where the homeschoolers we know are.

Where we are is All play, all the time. I'm curious if it will change at 11 or 12, as some have said.

[goddessjulia]

first, WCM, I love your siggy!
this thread is like a breath of fresh air!! I'm gonna ramble a bit, so just skip on over me if you get bored

I have ds1 (soon to be 8), dd (3) and ds2 (turning 1 in 2 weeks!). we have always radically unschooled. I have stressed enormously over what ds1 chooses to do over the years, mostly because of pressure from my parents. now that ds1 is "finally" reading, plus being interested in history (my mom is a retired ps history teacher), they have relaxed about his education

ds1 does little that is not "play." (same for dd and ds2, but at their ages what else would they be doing?!) we *don't* limit screen time (which I'm not always comfortable with, but that's another thread), so ds1 spends a lot of time watching shows and playing wii games. if he's watching a show, he's usually building with legos and playing out different imaginative scenarios with what he builds at the same time (if you look closely, turns out he isn't actually watching that much some days). he'll do other things if I engage him sometimes, but not always. and frankly, I just don't have the time and energy to engage him much lately I'm working to streamline the rest of my life so I have more space built in to my days for that... but that's another thread too

to answer the original question, though, I don't know what age, if any, and we aren't there yet thinking about this is making me realize how incredibly important it is that we (all of us unschoolers, I mean) are doing this, allowing our kids to unfold into the people they naturally are, instead of coercing them with our value judgments in any way, even if said coercion was intended with their highest good in mind. our kids get to mature and change when *they* want to, not when anyone or anything outside themselves says to! WOW!!! I think I shall memorize how this feels, to feel this good and positive about the freedom we are giving our kids to be self-determining, so I can call on this memory when I start to feel my parents questioning ds1's learning again...

I'm getting really unfocused, so off to bed with me! g'night!

[4evermom]

All learning is still pretty much play based for my 9 yo. He was wondering recently what school would be like (he knows he doesn't want to go based on his pre-k memories) and wanted to briefly play pretend. I gave him a couple of pages from an activity book to do and that was that. I think he's going to be about 12 before he wants to do anything structured or take a class. But he's always loved science museums. Not wanting a class doesn't mean he doesn't want to learn about things considered to be academic.

He started playing an online multiplayer game which has made him more interested in writing. He isn't typing much yet but I see him progressing and having fun with it. He's getting very good at communicating with 2 and 3 letters, lol (jk, ty, np, idk, gtg, afk, brb, and zzz). One version of the game is playing school. It's interesting to see how teenage boys role-play school in a war based game.

He can read pretty well but doesn't read books independently yet. We've been reading the Animorphs series.

We're excited that parkdays are starting up again because we don't have any neighborhood friends. We've been getting together with his one friend most weeks. They usually play video games, legos, or nerf gun wars.

We haven't been going places as much as I'd like because dh is out of a job and we are lying low trying not to spend money.

[Piglet68]

Play is so important to kids. Gordon Neufeld gave a wonderful talk at a recent parent conference about the importance of play.

In some societies, kids don't do real "work" until they reach adult status (around puberty).

WCM: I wonder if the change you saw is because the kids are in that in-between stage of having gained the basic skills they need but not sure what their passions are. Or, I also had a thought that maybe the difference is WHAT they are learning being not so apparent. Kwim? LIke, when they are babies and they first walk that is so obvious to us. But at the age my daughter is (she's 8) it seems the things she is learning are more subtle things. Like morality and ethics. But through play.