I need to tighten the ropes but feel guilty

[Karamom]

I was raised VERY authoritative. After my oldest was born I started reading about GD and as I started understanding and getting deeper into it I settled on a radical unschooling/ unconditional parenting style. I felt really confident with that for a long time but now I'm really struggling. DS is almost 4 and basically doesn't listen or do anything I ask at all. I'm not sure if its the method or if I'm just not doing it right. Frankly it's probably the later.

I read all the time to give then all this freedom but then as a tiny side note, "of course you do need to set reasonable limits." without really any explanation. I know that I learn toward being very loose. I've read a lot of parents raised very authoritative will go the opposite way and be afraid to set limits. I just have this horrible feeling inside if I tell him no like I'm not being fair and messing him up.

I read somewhere that with each interaction with your child you should ask yourself if you are strengthening your connection or weakening it. So now I feel like if I say "no, we can't go get ice cream today" and he gets upset then I'm damaging our relationship. I guess I'm worried of losing the connection and then having no control when he becomes a teenager because he is connected to his friends.

I'm feeling what I need to do is create a more structured household where the parents are on top of the ladder instead of everyone being equal but I don't know on the other hand that idea makes me cringe. I want everyone to be equal but it isn't going the way I'd planned. I feel like I'm married to the idea of a happy loving household where everyone feels free and corporates and there is no coercion but its just not working out.

So if you are still reading this I just need some advice on how to tighten the ropes and not feel like I'm living in caous (sp? sorry) without becoming my parents. I know I don't want to use rewards/ punishments but I want then to follow directions reasonably. Some of you are probably reading this thinking I'm crazy. Just...I don't know something needs to change.

[Llyra]

I read somewhere that with each interaction with your child you should ask yourself if you are strengthening your connection or weakening it. So now I feel like if I say "no, we can't go get ice cream today" and he gets upset then I'm damaging our relationship.

See, I don't buy that. Having a good relationship with anybody, whether it's a child or an adult, doesn't mean you have to be a pushover, and do everything the other person wants. In that situation, I would assume I had good reason for refusing to stop for ice cream-- there's no time, we're avoiding junk food, we're going home to eat a good meal, I personally am exhausted and want to get home. I'm not denying it just to be mean, and I'm not breaking a promise made. Then I would handle my kids' disappointment with the same reasonable respect I'd give anybody who I had to disappoint-- I'd say I was sorry we couldn't agree, that I understood the child was sad, and that yeah, ice cream IS yummy. Then I'd stay patient while the child worked through whatever feelings there were-- WHILE we were on our way home. I wouldn't get angry, or punish for the expression of feelings-- whether it be yelling or crying or whatever it was. I wouldn't allow expressions that hurt people-- no hitting, for example. But I also wouldn't change my mind just to avoid a child being sad.

Let's say I'm going to visit MIL, and she's looking forward to seeing the kids. Suddenly, for a good reason, we have to cancel. I call her to cancel, and she throws a hissy fit and yells at me-- I wouldn't say, oh, okay, well we'll come then. I would say firmly, I'm sorry you feel disappointed. I understand. But we really just can't-- can we make it another day? I would deal with a child just the same as any other adult, only with the understanding that a child might need more help and support managing the disappointment, because emotional control is something we learn slowly as we get older.

Personally, our house is probably a lot more structured and top-down than a lot of parents here are comfortable with. But I don't think we're authoritarian, and I don't think we're over-controlling, and I think on the whole it's working for all of us. We have some very clear rules. We have a routine to our life-- expectations about who does what and when that we stick to on a fairly regular basis. And within that structure, my kids are given a great deal of freedom to spend their time the way they like, and make decisions about the issues that affect only them, and participate in decisions that affect all of us. But I don't feel the need to scramble to give everybody just exactly what they want all the time-- a community can't function that way.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think its really easy for us to second guess ourselves. And frankly, especially for those of us raised in authoratarian households. We weren't encouraged to think for ourselves as children, nor to trust our own abilities. We were taught to obey, regardless. Which is, IMHO, why we are so commited to doing things better for our children.

For me, that focus on the long-term impact of what I do, not the short-term, governs a lot of my parenting decisions. Will saying "no" to ice cream create a short-term issue? Maybe. Will it create long-term impact? Probably not. Unless, of course, the "no" is done in a cruel way. But then its the cruelty, not the actual no that is the issue.

I want my children to be able to think for themselves and to trust their emotions. I want them to be able to express their thoughts and emotions -- politely and compassionately. They are now older than yours, but these have always been my goal. So, if we couldn't do ice cream for a reason, I would always give and answer AND the reason. I would listen to what they had to say, as long as it was expressed appropriately. I would probably still say no, but I think that giving them the information and the freedom to react helps develope the longer-term things I want. Of course, at 4 the explaination would be different than it is now with my 10 YO.

Honestly, I don't think that children always should be or need to be "happy". Its OK for them to be angry, upset, disappointed or whatever. There is a need for limits as children learn how to navigate the world, and sometimes I really DO know better than they. Those things, if kindly and consistently presented, are not going to result in any sort of relationship damage in the long-term. After all, I can get annoyed at my best friend and she's still my best friend. On the other hand, I do think that protecting children from every little disappointment will result in a child without the emotional depth and resilience they will need to be great adults.

And that is a very long rambling answer to your question. Boils down to this -- long-term rather than short-term goals. Modeling what you want them to learn. Realizing that you really do know better sometimes. For me, so far so good.

[bodhitree]

Originally Posted by Karamom

I read somewhere that with each interaction with your child you should ask yourself if you are strengthening your connection or weakening it. So now I feel like if I say "no, we can't go get ice cream today" and he gets upset then I'm damaging our relationship. I guess I'm worried of losing the connection and then having no control when he becomes a teenager because he is connected to his friends.

When I think of the relationships that I have that are particularly strong and rewarding, they are relationships where both parties are able to set healthy boundaries. I feel that the need to always give in to what the other person wants is actually not a sign of a strong relationship. My child is much younger than yours, so take it with a grain of salt, but my goal is to get lots of practice setting appropriate boundaries for her early on and having us both see that that can happen and it doesn't mean our connection has to suffer. You are the parent, and you can be authoritative without being authoritarian or having it come across as cruel or controlling.

Also, it's really great that you want everyone in your household to be equal, but I think it's a good idea to think about what you really mean by that. If you mean that you don't want your son to grow up being made to feel small or worthless or like his point of view doesn't matter, that's awesome! But you can set limits for him without making him feel that way. And it's also worth noting that if you always have to give in to him, then everyone isn't really "equal," since you're putting his desires above yours whenever they come into conflict. Basically, I think you can recognize that everyone in your household is equal in terms of human worth and their right to be treated respectfully, while still remembering that you are not the same in terms of your abilities and experience. You can say no to him in a kind, respectful and firm manner without having it damage him forever.

So in terms of how you actually set limits, again, my child is still pretty little, but the way I do it is to say something like, "I'm sorry, baby, I know you're disappointed because you want to keep playing, but we need to leave the park now. Can you say bye to your friends? And do you want to walk to the car or be carried?" I recognize her point of view and respect her right to her feelings, but if I decide that something really does need to happen (or not happen), then I'm firm about it. Maybe someone with older children will have more examples for you.

It might be helpful for you to look at some books on gentle discipline. There are lots of recommendations in the sticky at the top of this forum. I like "Positive Discipline" and the Sears' "Discipline Book."

[lach]

First of all, I hear from sooooo many people that 4 is the most difficult, defiant, frustrating age. I've heard from quite a number of people that you go from the terrible twos, to the terrible threes, to the f---ing fours. And I've also heard that at 5 it all gets much better. So maybe take that as a bit of consolation I think that a lot of people, no matter their parenting style, find this age very frustrating. For some reason, I've also heard that it's much worse with girls than with boys.

As to your specific parenting philosophies, I guess all I can say is *hugs.* I think that we're all just making this up as we go along, and that trial and error is the only way to go. Even the most perfect parenting philosophy ever written about won't work for all kids. I think that recognizing that something isn't working and thinking about how to change it is a sign of smart, flexible parent who really tries to understand and meet her child's needs. And if you're that, there's only so authoritative you can be, imo

I imagine that it's not terribly popular here (I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned, though I'm sure it has), but I thought the book "Blessings of a Skinned Knee" was very, very interesting. It is very mainstream-authorotative. Certainly not advocating hitting your children or anything like that, but it certainly has a lot of nostalgia for the supposed good old days when parents were parents and kids were weak. I didn't agree with everything, but I did find just about everything food for thought. It might offer you some food for thought about implementing reasonable limits, without going anywhere near any sort of extremes. I wouldn't say that it was the best parenting book I've ever read, but I would probably have to say that it gave me more to think about than any other.

There are only a few replies on this thread, but I just wanted to say how interesting they were to read and how thoughtful they were. I think I agree with what all of the other posters have said. I don't think that setting limits is mean. Even as an adult, my life is lived within certain limits. To take the MIL example, what if I don't want to visit her? She's not awful to the extent that I can cut off contact with her, but her house smells funny and I don't like her yappy little dog and her food sucks. I still have to suck it up and go visit her. If I whine, DH isn't out of line saying "WTF is your problem? I suffered through last Thanksgiving with your family, the least you can do is come visit mine for an afternoon." To combine the ice cream and the MIL example, if I see a Friendly's en route to her house and beg DH to stop so we can get some ice cream, DH isn't out of line saying "Don't be ridiculous, we're already late and my mother's making lunch. She'd be so hurt if we showed up and you had just had a big ice cream cone." Even though DH is basically telling me what to do in each case, we're not in an authoritative relationship at all and I wouldn't consider either situation to be authoritative. There are valid reasons why I can't have what I want, and he's just pointing them out. And, frankly, me being so mean about his mother is totally out of line. It's hard to blame him for being mad.

I don't think that there's anything wrong about giving the same respect to a child as you would to an adult. But I think you also have to be reasonable about how much respect you'd give to another adult who was being irrational or doing something that was out of line. The difference is that an adult should already know what sorts of behaviors are irrational or out of line, and young children don't necessarily know that yet. It should have occurred to me that if I have an ice cream now, I won't be hungry for MIL's (gross) Sunday dinner and she'll be hurt: a 4 year old wouldn't really think that through. But that doesn't mean that you have to give in to her: it just means that you should walk her through, in an age appropriate and gentle manner, why you're not getting the ice cream. And she'll understand, or she won't: actually, I would imagine that a 4 year old would have a difficult time grasping all that and would continue to insist that it will only take a minute and she'll only have a little ice cream and she won't be full AT ALL (cross her heart). But just because she doesn't quite get it doesn't mean that you're mean. It just means that there are some limits that she doesn't understand yet, and it's your job to set them until she is old enough to do it herself.

I hope that you find the path that's right for your family. Good luck!

[Quinalla]

I wanted to recommend the book "Parenting Effectiveness Training" for a solid method of conflict resolution that tries for a win-win approach. Not a parent wins child loses approach (authoritarian/tyrant) or child wins parent loses approach (permissive/doormat). There is a decent article explaining it here: http://www.gordontraining.com/Get_Wh...ethod_III.html

It also goes through active listening and identifying who's problem things are. Sometimes as parents we make problems ours that are really are child's problem to solve or make something our child's problem that is really our problem. I just really liked this book as it is about being respectful of your child and of yourself at the same time! And I really wanted to recommend it to you as you seem stuck between either being authoritative or permissive and there is another choice, you don't have just those two choices and the book speaks directly to that.

[DevaMajka]

That sounds a LOT like how I was with ds1 when he was younger- I was really into CL (consensual living) and tried really really hard to not say no, and to make every situation work for everybody. And it wasn't working for me. It might for some people, but not for me.

I read Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf (I think), and parenting got MUCH easier for me. I started being more laid back and got frustrated way less often. Sure, I said "no" more often, but a lot of the time I still found a solution that worked for both of us.

I get what you're saying about connection, but parents are naturally in a position of authority. I don't think that by asserting that authority that you are lessening your connection. As long, of course, as you are reasonable and keep in mind that your child's needs and desires are as important as yours, and that sometimes they just don't have the knowledge and skills needed to make the best decisions. Oh, and as long as they know that you ARE on their side (even if you sometimes make decisions they don't like).

Maybe these articles will help you out with switching to more of a "parents as authority figures" household?
Who's in Control
Where's my Center

Anyways, sorry if this isn't very coherent. I got distracted a few times to attend to kids. lol. I'm not even sure I answered what I intended to answer.

eta- I LOVED Parent Effectiveness Training, that a pp suggested.

I also wanted to add that while I do think that my kids' desires are as important as mine are, sometimes they don't have all the information (or they don't remember it) that they need to make an informed decision. I try to make sure that I have a great reason every time I say "no" or insist they do something, and I try to make sure I tell them my reasons, even if they don't really understand (or care). Ime, ds1 knows that I have a good reason when I say no or insist, and he seems to be ok when I do so. (however, interestingly, lately I've been sort of bad about making sure I have a great reason, and he seems to be slightly less happy about complying sometimes. I'm really working on fixing that, and making sure that I say no only when necessary).

I am also very aware that sometimes *I* don't have all the information, so I listen to ds1's reasons for not wanting to comply. Often, he says something I hadn't thought of, or comes up with a great solution that had never occurred to me. Imo that's an important part of it

[NellieKatz]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

.

Maybe these articles will help you out with switching to more of a "parents as authority figures" household?
Who's in Control
Where's my Center

Wow! I really found these articles to be helpful. Now I want to read The Continuum Concept!

[mamazee]

I used to try to be completely consensual, and it just wasn't practical. I do follow UP principals, so I don't punish, but I agree entirely with this from Llyra:

See, I don't buy that. Having a good relationship with anybody, whether it's a child or an adult, doesn't mean you have to be a pushover, and do everything the other person wants. In that situation, I would assume I had good reason for refusing to stop for ice cream-- there's no time, we're avoiding junk food, we're going home to eat a good meal, I personally am exhausted and want to get home. I'm not denying it just to be mean, and I'm not breaking a promise made. Then I would handle my kids' disappointment with the same reasonable respect I'd give anybody who I had to disappoint-- I'd say I was sorry we couldn't agree, that I understood the child was sad, and that yeah, ice cream IS yummy. Then I'd stay patient while the child worked through whatever feelings there were-- WHILE we were on our way home. I wouldn't get angry, or punish for the expression of feelings-- whether it be yelling or crying or whatever it was. I wouldn't allow expressions that hurt people-- no hitting, for example. But I also wouldn't change my mind just to avoid a child being sad.

I don't think it's my job to make sure my kids are always happy. I do think it's my job to be fair, kind, understanding, and take their wishes into account. But someone does have to be the final decision maker, and that's me. I would never get upset with a child for not liking a decision I've made, and I'd explain why I made the decision I made if the child were open to hearing that, but the child not liking it wouldn't make me change my mind. I don't punish for tantrums, but then I don't see tantrums as a behavior problem. There are things children need to learn and they will have tantrums until they've learned those things. I empathize, and work with my child to help them get through the tantrums and get past that stage. I don't try to avoid them or stop them. I accept that they are part of life with young kids.

I'm not opposed to ever changing my mind if given good reasons, and that's what my older dd has learned. Instead of just grumbling, she tries to find solutions. I'll say "no ice cream" and she'll ask why, not in a snotty way, but because she truly wants to figure out where I'm coming from. And I'll explain that we can't fill up on unhealthy foods one hour before dinner. And then after dinner she might ask, "Do you think we could have some ice cream for dessert?" We don't usually have dessert, but sometimes we do, and it's usually ice cream, so we sometimes say yes and go out for ice cream. So what she's learned is to take what's important to everyone into account and find a solution. Ice cream just before dinner doesn't get a yes, but after dinner on nights where we aren't too busy will often get a yes. Sometimes she'll ask to do something and I'll say no, and I usually just tell her why at this point, so maybe no because she's got too much stuff out already and I have to get things thoroughly cleaned before we start messing again. And lo and behold her solution is often to help me clean. Or sometimes her solution is to do it outside to not make a mess. If her solution works for me, even if it isn't what I would have come up with, I try to work with it. So I keep control but I try to keep us on the same team. This hasn't happened overnight, my dd is 8 now, but it's been worth the effort. She now understands and trusts that I don't just say no to say no, that there is always a reason, and that I will take her wants and ideas into account.

[NellieKatz]

mamazee, that was one awesome answer! you worded it so well.

[mum4vr]

I agree with the great info from the PP-- what a great community we have here w wise mamas.

I would add that you need to trust yourself as parent. You said you know you need to tighten the ropes. OK, WHY? Why do you know this? My guess is bc you know what is best for your child (and that what you have been doing is no longer what is best--maybe he outgrew the previous approach/techniques?). That is why you explored GD, and took an honest look at how you were raised, and what you wanted to keep and what you wanted to change. It does NOT have to be all or nothing, and there are many shades of grey between your child in charge of everything (not healthy) and you being cruel and controlling (also not healthy). Find what is best for your family.

I would love to tell you what that is, but it would be what's best for my family, not yours, and I doubt it would be a blessing to you.

Also keep in mind that children feel more secure with loving limits. Maybe he is acting out bc he feels insecure now he's old enough to feel a lack of limits more? HTH

[Karamom]

Thank you everyone for your replies. They were really helpful and just what I needed to read.

The evening after I posted this my dh watched the kids for while I went to borders and I sat in the parenting section for a couple hours. I flipped though many books reading the chapters and paragraphs that appealed to me. I left feeling much clearer about what I wanted to do. The last few days have been going pretty well. My ds is not really acting any different but I am and I feel better about. I figure with time he will too.

I think the main thing for me is excepting that I can enforce limits but I need to remain calm. Before I would alternate between letting him do whatever and then getting frustrated and mad and yelling and demanding when I just couldn't take it anymore. Obviously that's not a good way to parent. So things are going well. I hope I can keep this up!

[Karamom]

Wow DevaMajka, I just read the articles you linked to. They are really helpful!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Karamom

I think the main thing for me is excepting that I can enforce limits but I need to remain calm. Before I would alternate between letting him do whatever and then getting frustrated and mad and yelling and demanding when I just couldn't take it anymore. Obviously that's not a good way to parent. So things are going well. I hope I can keep this up!

That was me exactly!

I'm glad those articles were helpful for both of you

[LynnS6]

One thing to add to the great advice that you were given here: I think that we do our children a disservice when we don't teach them to handle disappointment or not always getting your way. Thus, if you're afraid that saying 'no' will mess up your child, you're denying them the opportunity to learn to deal with frustration in a loving and supportive environment.

Mom will still love you if you stomp across the room and throw your shoes at the wall (as our 6 year old did, because we asked her to change her clothes before going to the neighbor's house). Most of the world will not.

Some days, I'd be willing to let dd go out without changing her clothes, but dd is fighting off some vaginitis because she hasn't been practicing good hygiene, and we need to get it cleared up. She must change her undies daily.

My job as a parent isn't to give my child everything they want, but to teach them how to deal with both the ups and the downs of life. You can't learn to handle the downs of life if no one ever says 'no'.

Saying 'no' doesn't mean not explaining. It doesn't meaning not listening to reasoned arguments as to why it should be different.

Now if I can just get the calm part down.... I yelled at dd this morning because she interrupted me asking to play Playmobil. It wasn't the request so much as the timing and the whining. (And is it any surprise that the above tantrum happened right after I yelled at her?)