Religious Difference

[chicmom]

Little background: I am Roman Catholic and STBX is Muslim. We were married in the Catholic Church by receiving a dispensation basically stating that I (The Catholic Party) will do anything in my power to have the children baptitized and raise them Catholic.

Started having children, STBX would not allow me to baptize them and wants them to be Muslim. Nice. Just one of the many reasons I want a divorce/Church annulment.

Fast forward to today: Currently going through a divorce (children are 4,3,1), and I want them to be baptized. He has done NOTHING in the past to include his religion in their life. No prayers, no religous events, no Islamic holidays, not one mention of God in our home. i have started in introduce the children to Catholic prayers and Bible songs. This weekend I will begin taking my oldest to church for the 1st time.

I currently have temporay sole physical custody, joint legal. I am in Nebraska, he is in New Jersey. He has not even attempted to contact his children since I left him 2 months ago. No phone calls, no mail, no Skype. Apparently, he thinks that he will be able to visit the children once/month for a day or two, but I don't know how long that is going to last. My lawyer told my at this point, do not have them baptized because of the joint legal custody and it will not "make me look good".

Just wondering if anyone has had experience with this: major religious differences. I have no problem if he exposes them to Islam, prayers, and traditions and I have encouraged him to do so over the years, however, I want them baptized. He is such a liar. I would have never married him if I would have know it was going to turn out this way.

[Soul-O]

I think you need to get something in writing within your custody agreement that states that you are allowed to baptize the children prior to having it done. Given that you and your STBX are of vastly different faiths, you do not want to give the impression of not respecting the cultural/religious differences you have, especially because you were both aware of them when you married. My exDH and are both Christians; however, we never attended church together, and ex has expressed in the past that he has "issues" with what is taught in my church (Protestant-Assembly of God). However, because none of this was addressed directly in our custody/visitation proceedings, neither of us has the right to limit or control the other's church attendence with the children.

Good luck!

[lilyka]

I got my kids baptized the minute Dh and I separated (Seriously. Before I filed the papers I went in to talk to my priest, got his blessing for the divorce, and then scheduled the baptism for two weeks out.). It did not hurt me. And really, does your xh even have to know? If you keep it small and quiet? And definitely start taking them to church if you want to. You are not stopping him from sharing his faith with them. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to share yours with them.

[chicmom]

Thanks for the insight. Tonight I went to the Baptism class (that is required by the Archdiocese) and the Deacon who ran the class, basically told me the same thing: Get them baptized, you know what it morally right. About two months back, I talked to a priest and he said that it would be no problem to have them baptized in this situation. At this point, my husband would never know or find out...it is when my daughter is in 2nd grade and receiving her 1st Holy Communion, that he will find out. That is four years away, though

[Dingletwitz]

Yeah, don't even mention it in court or anything. It's not like you're having them "altered" in some way or doing an elective surgery or anything that would damage them. It's common even in joint custody situations to have one type of church one week and a different one another week. Kids can make the jump, even from one very different one to another.

[New_Natural_Mom]

I am not christian and my DH is (on paper.) We don't go to church and DS has never been to church. I was very adamant before we ever had kids that ours would never be baptized. Were we to divorce and he attempted to or actually had my DS baptized I would be beyond furious. It would be one of the deepest betrayals. I liken it to having a child circumcized or vaccinated behind one parent's back.

Just because you are catholic doesn't make it morally right. Your STBX is muslim. That doesn't make that morally right either. What if he got sole custody and raised the kids muslim without discussing your religion at all? Regardless of your feelings for your ex I think you have a responsibility to your children (who are his children too no matter how much that bothers you now, you had kids with him knowing he was muslim, so it wasn't like it was a surprise.) to raise them being exposed to both faiths. That is their heritage, again, whether you like it or not, it just is. Why not wait until they are older to make that decision for themselves, or at least discuss it with your STBX first.

I honestly can't believe anyone would even consider doing this.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by New_Natural_Mom

I am not christian and my DH is (on paper.) We don't go to church and DS has never been to church. I was very adamant before we ever had kids that ours would never be baptized. Were we to divorce and he attempted to or actually had my DS baptized I would be beyond furious. It would be one of the deepest betrayals. I liken it to having a child circumcized or vaccinated behind one parent's back.

Just because you are catholic doesn't make it morally right. Your STBX is muslim. That doesn't make that morally right either. What if he got sole custody and raised the kids muslim without discussing your religion at all? Regardless of your feelings for your ex I think you have a responsibility to your children (who are his children too no matter how much that bothers you now, you had kids with him knowing he was muslim, so it wasn't like it was a surprise.) to raise them being exposed to both faiths. That is their heritage, again, whether you like it or not, it just is. Why not wait until they are older to make that decision for themselves, or at least discuss it with your STBX first.

I honestly can't believe anyone would even consider doing this.

Two wrongs don't make one right. Sneaking around to have your kids baptized is wrong; get it in the court order or at least discuss it before doing so. It is blatantly disrespectful to do otherwise and if the situations were reversed, you would not want him to sneak around doing that.

[vannienicole]

I agree with Minxie. It is sneaking around and lying. That is against the faith too. I don't know why a lawyer would suggest that in the least or a practicing Catholic would do it. Get a court order first. You've done a lot of sneaky stuff in this separation and whether he's seeing the kids or not right now, you are just giving his side of the split fuel. Tiptoe til it's over, try to address the situation through the court and then baptize.

My ex is an atheist and I am a Catholic as are both our families. I take the kids to church on the weekends I have them. My daughter even asked me for a Bible for her birthday. BUT, I would never sneakily baptize them in any faith. I will approach this topic with him in due time. If it wasn't for my DD coming home from school one day saying she believed in God and having an open discussion with her father and I about it for a year, I would have just waited until she was older to make the choice. That would be "in the child's best interest", whether it was in my best's interests as well or not at all.

[doubledutch]

but he agreed to it before they were even married.

[New_Natural_Mom]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

but he agreed to it before they were even married.

And she agreed to marry someone of a drastically different faith. Would it be any different if an atheist suddenly became born again at some point after marriage? No parent has the *right* to make such a huge decision unilaterally.

[bella99]

Sorry to forum crash, but, doubtdutch, from the OP's initial post, he didn't agree to anything.

At their wedding it sounds like she, as the Catholic party, agreed to do what she could to raise children in the Catholic faith, but he didn't promise anything, and after they were born, he refused to allow them to get baptized.

I agree it's sneaky and just because a priest says its "morally right" doesn't mean it is.

My husband and I were raised in drastically different faiths. We believe more or less the same now, but I wouldn't ever presume to complete a religious ritual against the belief's of my children's father without his consent first.

[candycat]

Honestly I don't view it as major sneakiness to allow your child to participate in your religious faith - especially when the child's father swore to the same as a condition of the marriage (whether or not he followed through with it).

Would it be better to do it with his consent? Sure. Do I think it's a horrible thing to do? No.

My *mother* tried to sneaky-baptize my kids when they were born. That I had an issue with because she was not the parent. If my kids' father tried to get them baptized, however, it wouldn't really phase me, but darned if I couldn't practice my faith with them too.

[*MamaJen*]

I dunno. I don't honestly see it as that big a deal.
Baptism only has meaning if you believe in it, you know? What really happens? A guy says some words and puts some water on the baby's head. Now, if you have full faith in the Catholic religion, that's an incredibly powerful ritual. If you don't believe it, it's just a guy saying some words and sprinkling some water. It's nothing like vaxing or circumcising, where something concrete and literal and tangible actually happens.
Now, the part where you actually raise your child in a faith, take them to religious services every week, teach them the things that you believe over the course of a long period of time -- that, in my opinion, has a far greater impact that one short ceremony. It seems kind of counter-intuitive to say it's sneaky and horrible to do this short baptismal ceremony, but be fine with the idea of actually raising the child in a certain faith.
Now, of course, if the kids' dad wants to introduce them to Muslim traditions, that would be his prerogative as well. But it sounds like he's not going to be involved much at all. Also, if he's talking big about how he wants the children raised in his faith, but he's not actually doing anything about it, it sort of sounds to me that it's more about power or control or ego than actual faith. Y'know? Like he wants his kids to be like him, but he's not willing to take the time to share core philosophical beliefs, or doesn't truly think the faith is important.
Here's an example: I'm not religious, but I am a democrat. I'd kind of like my son to think about being a democrat as well when he gets older. So I'm trying, in our day to day lives, to share the things that I think are important about being a democrat, like tolerance and helping out people less fortunate than us. Walking the walk, as well as talking the talk. Of course, if he thinks about it and picks a different set of beliefs, that's his choice.
I was raised Catholic and stopped believing in it literally 20 years ago, when I was 11. But I'm more than happy to let my mom have DS baptized, because it will make her happy and stop her from worrying about what happens to my son in his afterlife. Baptizing DS would be very meaningful to her. Meanwhile, because I don't have faith and don't assign meaning to the ceremony, it would not be very meaningful to me, so it's no skin off my teeth. Anyway, apparently the parent has to be a practicing Catholic to do the Baptism, so my mom got the idea that she would get some holy water and do it herself. She said her god would be okay with that, so I'm fine with it too.

[doubledutch]

i guess i don't know how that dispensation thing works. i thought it involved his cooperation (and it almost certainly happened prior to their wedding, not at their wedding). and when op said, "he is such a liar," i don't know what she was referring to, but i thought it was related to not preventing her from having their kids baptized.

i'm not catholic, but stbx was raised catholic (not currently practicing, has vague beliefs). do i want my kids baptized in the catholic church? no, not really . . . but if he decided that was important to him, whether he talked to me about it first or not, whatever. it doesn't hurt me or my kids or my ability to raise them according to my spiritual beliefs. it's not circumcision, and it's not vaccination. those are permanent changes to their body. it's not even a 12-week pre-baptism indoctrination class (i would have way more of a problem with that, but still wouldn't try to prevent it if it were on his parenting time).

eta: mamajen is the queen and i bow to her.

[meemee]

we never had any agreements ourselves.

ex is an atheist. i am a spiritualist.

no matter what even if ex had agreed for our child to adopt my religion i would encourage my dd to see both.

that is her heritage. and honestly i dont want her to follow what i do just coz i do it.

so i have joined an atheist group out here. and i have been taking my dd there. i am also part of a small hindu-christian group and i take dd there too.

i personally would never feel right about sneakily baptising my dd. even if i AM in the right. you know your ex doesnt want that.

i would have my children going to church with me but i would not baptise her. i was raised christian. when dd was born i was still a practising christian. i went to visit my mom and she wanted me to baptise my dd without my ex knowing it.

morally that didnt feel right at all. i was never a proseletysing christian so it just felt wrong doing it.

which is why today i am part of an athiest group. out there i very boldly say i am not an atheist. not am i antichristian. but i want to find out what people think. i think its a fantastic opportunity for dd to think too. and she does that. i dont have to do it. ex can. but he chooses not to do so.

its my way of contributing to the world that my child doesnt let religious identity be the only identity she sees in someone else.

i have told my mom she is welcome to share her belief with my dd. but because my ex is not happy with dd being baptised (i am with mamajen - i dont care) i have not let my mom baptise dd.

[PoppyMama]

IME, to get the dispensation to be married in the Catholic church the non-Catholic person has to agree to any children being raised Catholic. So if he did that then later refused saying they had to be Muslim and then didn't do that either then I wouldn't be giving a rat's butt about what his view on religion is. I don't know if could come back to bite you legally though.

[chicmom]

IME, to get the dispensation to be married in the Catholic church the non-Catholic person has to agree to any children being raised Catholic. So if he did that then later refused saying they had to be Muslim and then didn't do that either then I wouldn't be giving a rat's butt about what his view on religion is

That is exactly what happened, PoppyMama.

[lilyka]

I did not baptize my children on the sly (and wouldn't recommend it) but I didn't ask permission either. I just said "I am raising them Orthodox, their baptism is on this day at this time and you are welcome to come." he did. walked out half way through. and it got worse from there. I have to admit. A guy at our church was talking about secretly having his dd baptized and I wanted to kick him (the priest said no). I would be ticked if my xh tried something like that. But i also think this is one of those things the custodial parent gets to decide. And he was not the custodial parent.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Don't do it. If he DOES find out, it can, and WILL be used against you in a custody battle.

My ex baptized my son w/o telling me, and then kept it a secret for over a month until I asked him whether he did it. He lied to me then, and refused to tell me where, told me NOTHING except that it was in his mom's church.

I had to call the CHURCH to get the info (after googling churches in his mom's town - I had to call 5 before I found the one). He did it 2 days after one of our court dates. We are DEFINITELY using it against him. As proof that he will not include me in our son's life if he gets custody. Your stbx can and will do the same thing I am. It doesn't look good. Secrets are NOT a good thing between co-parents. And parents who keep secrets from the other isn't looked upon favorably. And with the history of you secretly moving your children many states away - you need to tread carefully.

That doesn't mean you can't do it, just be honest and up-front about it. You also have to be open to your children having 2 religions - one with you, and one with him. He's allowed to share his religion with them just as much as you're allowed to share your religion with them.

[Mackenzie]

Quite frankly, I would cease the pattern of sneaky and morally questionable behavior that has been prevalent in this separation...