Religious Difference - Page 2

[Theia]

I'm in the "don't do it" camp. It is sneaky. And I feel that the children should be able to make the choice between the two religions of their parents on their own. My DD's father and I are of vastly different religious backgrounds also. But I am deliberately exposing her to her fathers background as much as my own. We celebrate both sets of holidays as best we can (he isn't in her life at all). She's only a toddler now, but when she is old enough, it will be her decision which religion she chooses to follow. For your DC's sake, I don't think you will be doing them any favors to force them into something that leads them to ignore half of their heritage. Your children deserve the choice.

[lilyka]

Baptizing her children in now ways keeps them from choosing between the two, no one will hunt you down if you choose to walk away from your baptism, nor does it do anything to stand between their father and them. I don't see how baptism can be used against her since they are not even the same religion. It is impossible for her to really share her religion fully with her children or raise them in that religion (and she has that right) if she cannot baptize them. And you have to understand that from a Catholic perspective not baptizing your child is like refusing emergency medical care. A huge risk to take and perhaps worth the trouble it would cause in a custody hearing.

However it sounds as if there is a lot more to this story. I would tread carefully. Either wait until you have custody for sure or permission to do it. Or until you decide it is worth the risk. For me it was worth the risk. And my xh is "Christian" sort of, so baptizing them was taking something from him. I suppose he could have made a stink about it. Thank God he did not. But he was not fighting for custody either. Nor had I don anything else wrong.

[SoulCakes]

I feel that both parents have the right to raise their children in their own religion unless they both agree to raise them as only Christian or only Muslim. If you don't believe that a baptism means anything, then it follows that you shouldn't have a problem with the children being baptized.

Ideally, the parents could work this out between them, but if they can't come to an agreement then both should be allowed to introduce the children to their religions as they wish.

[ewe+lamb]

My dh is muslim, he doesn't pray or go to the mosque but he does believe and that is his right, our children are taught the basics of all the major religions at the moment. My parents were very keen for me to do the 'sneaky' and have a protestant christening, it really gave a bitter taste to me, no religion is better than another, I find it totally disrespectful to go behind someone's back and baptise their children they are yours too but respect is everything whether you get along or not now, and I wouldn't blame your dh if he used it against you during your divorce or even thereafter, custodial rights can be re-evaluated if something major has happened - i would imagine that this would be classed as such.

[Theia]

Lilyka - Thank you for your clarification about baptism. I was raised protestant, but not catholic, so I'm not aware of the subtle differences. As I was taught, baptism meant that you were dedicating your soul to the religion/belief system/god as it applied to the particular religion. In the case of the OP, I wouldn't feel comfortable making such a choice for my own child. I know that no one is going to hunt a person down for walking away from the religion, but to me, the baptism carries such a heavy religious implication that I just wouldn't be comfortable doing that without the child understanding the meaning of the event. JMHO. I realize that catholics are different than protestants, and actually all religions have their subtle nuances such as you have alluded to.

OP - I don't envy your situation. Have you thought of the many long term possibilities of your actions? How do you think your children would feel as adults about this, the truth of the situation? How do you think they might feel about the truth of the situation with the sneakiness and the attempt to fully immerse them into your own religion and you've not mentioned any desires, thoughts or intentions of allowing your children to grow up familiar with and understanding of the other half of their heritage? It is my vague understanding that baptism is a sort of commitment ceremony. Is there a way you can wait for your children to choose to commit themselves to catholicism? It doesn't prevent you from sharing your beliefs and faith with them, and it allows them some control of their own futures. Yes, your DC's father isn't currently reaching out to them, but with the bit of backstory you provided, the situation doesn't seem honest and I would worry about this coming back to bite me later, it may be in months with a custody battle, or it may be in many years when DC are adults and feel resentment because they weren't allowed to honor half of their beings. Do the benefits outweigh the risks, because the future is unpredictable.

Again, with my humble opinion, but I feel that if a person chooses to cross broad cultural/religious boundaries and have a family with someone of a vastly different background, then we need to honor that, especially in the case of single parenting. I worry about my DD rebelling (when she is older) because I chose to take her and I out of an abusive situation, basically isolating her from her father and his heritage. That is the most simply put version of the events. So as a single mother I feel it is my responsibility to include both parts of DD's heritage in her life and to not necessarily attempt to emphasize one more than another due to my own personal choices/beliefs. This is how I am doing things. I want my DD to know as best as I can offer, both sides of herself. I won't make choices for her wrt to things such as religion. If, when she is older, (she's a toddler now) and wishes to follow one way more than another, then I will be flexible to that too. She is her own person and not something to bend to fit my will or desires. I chose to have a child with someone from a very different background than my own. Just because my relationship with this person did not work out as a long term family unit, doesn't make it feel right for me to ignore 50% of my DD's heritage, whether I approve of it or not. I feel I made my compromise long before she was born.

[New_Natural_Mom]

What if the dad took the kids to participate in some satanic ritual without saying anything? Would that be ok b/c it is "just a ceremony" and if you aren't a satanist then "it really doesn't mean anything"?

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Baptizing her children in now ways keeps them from choosing between the two, no one will hunt you down if you choose to walk away from your baptism, nor does it do anything to stand between their father and them. I don't see how baptism can be used against her since they are not even the same religion. It is impossible for her to really share her religion fully with her children or raise them in that religion (and she has that right) if she cannot baptize them. And you have to understand that from a Catholic perspective not baptizing your child is like refusing emergency medical care. A huge risk to take and perhaps worth the trouble it would cause in a custody hearing.

However it sounds as if there is a lot more to this story. I would tread carefully. Either wait until you have custody for sure or permission to do it. Or until you decide it is worth the risk. For me it was worth the risk. And my xh is "Christian" sort of, so baptizing them was taking something from him. I suppose he could have made a stink about it. Thank God he did not. But he was not fighting for custody either. Nor had I don anything else wrong.

She can baptize her children - what she should NOT do is keep it a secret. The SECRET is what can be used against her. B/c baptism is so important to her, and is as important to Catholics as you say it is, keeping it a SECRET is like keeping important information about her children a secret. Nor does she need permission, all she needs to do is say, " I am baptizing the children. You are welcome to attend if you wish, however you don't have to." Actually, she doesn't even need to invite him. She just needs to INFORM him that she's doing it.

ETA - When I found out that my son had been baptized w/o my knowing it, it was like being slapped in the face. It showed such blatant disrespect for me as MY SON'S MOTHER that my ex clearly didn't think I had any right to know what was going on with him. Being told about it, but no invited would have been MUCH better, since that would have at least showed some basic respect on my ex's part. Keeping it a secret shows no respect for the other parent. I've been on the OP's stbx's side of this issue, and I don't think it is appropriate to keep things secret from a child's parent.

[PoppyMama]

I think the responses from religious relativists are lacking understanding. If you believe all religions are interesting ways to explore spirituality, great, but for many people following a path to God is as important as nursing or responding to their babies needs. The OP and her stbx promised to raise the children Catholic as part of their marriage vows and now she is being told that to be fair that have to be raised as "explorers" or with no religion at all. The Catholic church practices infant baptism, which I know is different than many other religions and she cannot practice her religion with her children without going through the sacraments. She is not saying she has denied or will deny their father to practice his religion with them. I don't think it should be a secret either and this is a tough situation but I just wanted to point out that practicing a religion and "exploring" religion is not the same thing at all.

[Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

I think the responses from religious relativists are lacking understanding. If you believe all religions are interesting ways to explore spirituality, great, but for many people following a path to God is as important as nursing or responding to their babies needs. The OP and her stbx promised to raise the children Catholic as part of their marriage vows and now she is being told that to be fair that have to be raised as "explorers" or with no religion at all. The Catholic church practices infant baptism, which I know is different than many other religions and she cannot practice her religion with her children without going through the sacraments. She is not saying she has denied or will deny their father to practice his religion with them. I don't think it should be a secret either and this is a tough situation but I just wanted to point out that practicing a religion and "exploring" religion is not the same thing at all.

I understand that, I really do. However, that is one of the risks you take when you marry someone with very different religious values. Perhaps *HE* changed his mind with what he feels is "right" in regards to his faith and raising his children...which I think that we are all allowed to do, and I have seen argued for here with regards to parenting practices (how many times in the Vax forum have we encouraged a mom to use a religious exemption when she previously vaxed under the logic of "religious beliefs can change and evolve"?).

In my gut I feel that this is as much of a power play with the OP as it is genuine and is very very sneaky considering that she took the kids and moved halfway across the country under the guise of "visiting family"...

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by Mackenzie

I understand that, I really do. However, that is one of the risks you take when you marry someone with very different religious values. Perhaps *HE* changed his mind with what he feels is "right" in regards to his faith and raising his children...which I think that we are all allowed to do, and I have seen argued for here with regards to parenting practices (how many times in the Vax forum have we encouraged a mom to use a religious exemption when she previously vaxed under the logic of "religious beliefs can change and evolve"?).

In my gut I feel that this is as much of a power play with the OP as it is genuine and is very very sneaky considering that she took the kids and moved halfway across the country under the guise of "visiting family"...

[Theia]

Originally Posted by New_Natural_Mom

What if the dad took the kids to participate in some satanic ritual without saying anything? Would that be ok b/c it is "just a ceremony" and if you aren't a satanist then "it really doesn't mean anything"?

Since I've never dated a satanist, I've never had to consider how I'd feel about that particular religious boundary being crossed. But in general when two adults choose to create a family that is unconventional, they should not sneak around in the manner alluded to by the OP.

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

I think the responses from religious relativists are lacking understanding. If you believe all religions are interesting ways to explore spirituality, great, but for many people following a path to God is as important as nursing or responding to their babies needs. This is offensive because it alludes to the belief that spirituality is not also a path to god. There are many paths, and it's not a one size fits all thing or there would be only one religious belief system for the whole world population. OT discussion over. The OP and her stbx promised to raise the children Catholic as part of their marriage vows and now she is being told that to be fair that have to be raised as "explorers" or with no religion at all. The Catholic church practices infant baptism, which I know is different than many other religions and she cannot practice her religion with her children without going through the sacraments. She is not saying she has denied or will deny their father to practice his religion with them. I don't think it should be a secret either and this is a tough situation but I just wanted to point out that practicing a religion and "exploring" religion is not the same thing at all.

If this is the case, why weren't the children baptized while the OP was still living with the children's father? It was because he opposed it. The OP has joint legal custody of the children with their father. Her lawyer has advised against her doing the baptism at this time while the divorce is being worked out. It does sound like the OP was misled by her STBX, but since there is currently a joint legal agreement in place, then the OP should listen to her lawyer and wait. I would think that in court, she is already in for an uphill battle by sneaking off across the country with the children. In some courts this is considered alienation. In her place, I wouldn't want to risk any further actions that his side of the court could use to their advantage.

And I agree with Mackenzie and Minxie. This does seem more about a power play.

OP, I hope you don't feel offended by some of these comments. You asked, and you are getting varied opinions. Some of us have been through similar circumstances with our own DC and speak from experience and even those experiences are quite varied. My best suggestion is to follow your legal counsel and you can address this issue in the divorce/custody settlement which is how it should be handled. Up front and honest.

[chimomma]

I am Muslim. Just because Muslims don't baptize their children at birth doesn't mean they would be indifferent from it. It's not like we would think "oh, she is doing something meaningless to the baby." It would be more like seeing it as it is, she is trying to "convert" the baby to Catholicism.

OP when you took your husband's word that he would agree to raise th kids Catholic, did you realize that in Islam men are allowed to marry a Christian only if the kids will be raised Muslim? Even men who don't practice their religion usually insist on this and is to be expected. Just like you expect them to be Catholic. I am not saying he didn't promise you, but maybe you should have thought more about if it was wise to believe that he would be able/willing to fulfill that promise. That is a very difficult situation but you have to realize you choose to marry into it so you should expect all sorts of religious conflict to arise. Even though he may have done some wrong in the situation he is still the father and their must be compromise some how.