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Bloody Nose - HELP!

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
DC is almost 9 and has always had fairly frequent bloody noses. I used to see a pattern in the winter but she has had 3 big bloody noses today, one yesterday and the day before. I think it may be from the window air-conditioner we've been using in her room at night.

I've tried saline gel but that isn't helping. I just got some saline/aloe spray. I am going to go get a humidifier tomorrow and may try Vaseline or maybe lanolin.

Does anyone else know anything else I can try? DC is in school and getting these every day is not going to be good if it keeps going on. Also, DC is just getting frustrated by having to stop to deal with this. And, tonight was a lot of blood!

I'd appreciate any help/ideas.
post #2 of 24
My son is prone to nosebleeds, I am too and some others in my family, and supplemental vitamin K2 has been really helpful in treating and preventing them. For us, fish oil seems to be enough of a blood thinner to sometimes cause them, so when I've made changes there, nosebleeds result.

Even my DD, who only very occasionally gets nosebleeds, seems to be helped by some supplemental K2.

Traditional Chinese medicine has treatments for nosebleeds, I haven't tried that for us because the above worked well for us, but it's something to consider.
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
K2 - great, I'll get some while we're out today. I've really got to get this better under control. You also reminded me of another thing I read in another thread about Jello being a blood thickener. Does anyone know if regular Jello would work or should I make it with gelatin? Normally I make it with gelatin and fruit juice but I'd be interested in trying Jello too (DC wants a Jello cake for her birthday and I'm going to go the regular Jello route).
post #4 of 24
Have you had DD tested for bleeding disorders? A hematologist would do this. If she has one, you'd really want to know.
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hey, Kim

I haven't had DC tested for anything like that. She really doesn't bleed more than anyone else - anywhere else and we have a family history of frequent bloody noses. There is also the direct connection between dry air and her bloody noses. I have told her pediatrician (s) and they don't seem concerned.

Tanya,

What for of k2 are you giving your DC?
post #6 of 24
You have a family history of nosebleeds? I do too, and it's actually Kim's posts that made me realize that we may have a low-level bleeding disorder. Does anyone bruise easily? Took me til age 30+ to realize I do.

Cell salts have reduced the amount of K2 I need to take. I use Thorne's liquid K2 supp, it's expensive but it has a lot of doses and each dose is a lot of K2.

eta: none of my doctors have been concerned either, I'm actually not based on my personal health history, what I see in myself and the kids, but that's very particular to us.
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyalynn View Post
You have a family history of nosebleeds? I do too, and it's actually Kim's posts that made me realize that we may have a low-level bleeding disorder. Does anyone bruise easily? Took me til age 30+ to realize I do.
yes, this is me too...I was mid 30's before I figured it out. My bleeding occurs mostly as nosebleeds and if I have oral or nasal surgery. Occasionally I have periods of bruising here and there, but nothing majorly huge. Most of the time it's pretty normal. It took the hematologist two rounds of testing to figure out that I have low-level von willebrands. It does run in families. I'd get it checked out.
post #8 of 24
My ds (11) has idiopathic nose bleeds. We have had him tested for all sorts of things. And his nose has been cauterized 4 times. Another thing to try is pharmaceutical grade sesame oil. It has the protein taken out so it doesn't get rancid. We get it at our compounding pharmacy.
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
I will consider having DC tested (we just don't really do the doctor much). What is your treatment, Tanya and Kim?
post #10 of 24
I haven't tested any of us and I currently don't plan to.

My reasons:
-I've never had bleeding problems during medical things (a few teeth extracted, two births) or uncontrollable bleeding at any other time
-to my knowledge, no one in my family has had uncontrollable bleeding or complications during medical procedures (maternal grandma, several of my mom's sibs, my mom, me, and one of my 2 kids seem to all have the same issue)
-I seem to be able to control bleeding and bruising quite well by being aware of things that have triggered it (very high doses of vitamin A, high doses of vitamin D, fish oils with EPA--special thanks, again, to Kim for helping me make that connection)--it's not that I need to avoid those things entirely, I just take extra K2 to compensate
-I think it's likely we'd have to stop the supplements that we take in order to get valid test results--but we take those supps because I think they're important and good for us, so a test w/o them doesn't seem helpful

Bioplasma (a 12-in-1 cell salt, there's a thread on cell salts here in H&H) has reduced the amount of K2 I need to give DS. And supplemental K2 has been an important part, but I like it for other, more universal nutritional reasons as well, it's just that the dosage I give him is higher than I give to DD (her health seems very similar to DH, DS is similar to me).

And lately I've felt like I needed a better DHA supp, and I found Jarrow Max Factor DHA, it has some EPA but the ratio of EPA to DHA is much lower than most fish oil products, so that seems like a compromise we can live with. I had to be much more careful when the kids were getting cod liver oil (that's what originally triggered DS's nosebleeds, though it took me quite a while to recognize that), and I had to manage the amount of K2 DS got much more, but through experimentation I've seen how much he needs and things are quite stable now.
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
I just read a tiny bit (Wiki) about that blood disorder, Kim. I did bleed a lot after birth but have a normal menstrual flow.

What I noticed at on the Wiki is that there is no treatment? Is that true?
post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 
We posted at the same time, Tanya. Thanks for all your help. I think I'll skip the testing too - especially if there's now treatment other than diet/supplements.

I'm going to look into the K2. Would butter oil work as well? How do you know what the cell salt to k2 ratio is? Is it by bleeding results after adding cell salts?
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Oh, one more thing for Kim and Tanya. Given that you think it may be a blood disorder, do you still notice more bleeding with the seasons because of the dry air (heat/ac).
post #14 of 24
I live in the Houston area now, and grew up near Seattle. I've never lived in a truly dry climate, so I can't help much there. My mom has more nosebleeds when she visits family in Colorado.

I just take what I think is a fairly normal amount of bioplasma, in general 3 tablets 3x/day is a basic adult dose, 2 tabs 3x/day for the kids. After I added in the cell salts, I slowly realized that I could be a lot less consistent with the K2 for DS and he didn't get nosebleeds. If I stop the K2 entirely, especially abruptly, they'll come back, but it's given me a lot more wiggle room and I've found that overall I am fine giving him less than I used to.

I had to experiment with the K2, I have no idea if it's consistent from family to family. DS and I seem to need scaled amounts--if I take 2x as much fish oil, for example, I need 2x as much K2 as he does. But the basic amount, I have no idea if that's normal--and at times, I have given him amounts far above what we could get from food.

I haven't tried butter oil, the amount of K2 I give him via Thorne's supp is high enough that I think the amount of butter oil would be cost prohibitive. But I've read, secondhand, that some people find butter oil more effective than synthetic supps, so it may be a reasonable thing to try--I just haven't gotten around to it.

At some point I may talk to an acupuncturist about it, I think TCM would interpret it as an inherited spleen weakness (I think spleen, in the TCM sense), and may be able to improve it. I like TCM overall, I'm not sure whether it's an effective approach or not for this particular issue, but since it doesn't seem to be a specific genetic variant--there's no specific gene that I've read of that you can identify to cause this, diagnosis seems to be based on a measure of blood clotting time--it seems more malleable to me than many other conditions.
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks Tanya!! One last Q. Any idea how soon I'll see results from the K2?
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
I will consider having DC tested (we just don't really do the doctor much). What is your treatment, Tanya and Kim?
I hate the doctor too, but excessive bleeding can be dangerous, particularly in emergencies or postpartum hemorrhage, and things like that. This is why it's good to know if you are at risk. And there are many ways that the process of clotting can be off - it's not just the disorder I have.

I've never had particularly heavy menses, though many with vWd do have this symptom. This is one reason I never realized I had the problem.

I have had nasal and oral surgery before I knew I had the bleeding disorder. My mom told me the surgeon came out after surgery (I was still out of it) and talked to her. She said he looked just white in the face and scared, and told her that I had lost a LOT more blood than he expected. I guess they stopped just short of giving me a transfusion (I've never had one). But it took this experienced surgeon by surprise, he had never seen that kind of blood loss from this kind of surgery. Also I seemed to bleed a bit more than usual from my oral surgeries.

The kind of thing I have varies with the hormones, so at certain times of the month it's potentially worse than others. But I don't get the bleeding every month. I just know when the risk is higher. Since I know all this now...I won't schedule any surgery for that time of my cycle. Nothing I can do about emergency surgery, though. But I can inform any doctor or ER that I have this condition (many doctors still don't know what it is and how to treat it, but they can contact my hematologist). With the type of von Willebrand's I have, things like surgery and childbirth can be prepared for. I can take some of an anti-diuretic medication called Desmopressin Acetate (DDAVP), which has a side effect that works short-term to pull out all the vW factor that has been stored in all the little hiding places in the body. This is enough to get the blood to start clotting normally. Now, I am SO not big on medication, but if it keeps me from bleeding to death and especially since it's a one-shot thing, I'm all for it.

Yes, my bleeding does get worse with the cold weather...it increases the chance that I will get a nosebleed. But I've also gotten nosebleeds in the warm weather, too. It's way more correlated to my menstrual cycle. I've had a couple of instances where I couldn't get the nosebleed to stop. The first time, I didn't know about the vWd, so I went to urgent care and got it cauterized. The second time was after I knew about the vWd, and now I have a small amount of DDAVP at home in a nasal spray version. I just sprayed some in my other nostril and wow, the bleeding stopped almost instantly. If I ever have some kind of accident at home and am bleeding profusely, that little spray could save my life. I don't use the spray unless I've tried everything else first to stop the nosebleed. I usually use the Nosebleed QR product (a clotting powder applied topically), and that works most all the time...except that once, so far.

In addition to having the DDAVP available, I'm careful with supplements. As Tanya mentions, the EPA in fish oil is a blood thinner. My bleeding may be a bit more severe than hers, so I avoid EPA altogether, and do a DHA-only supplement (Neuromins). I avoid supplemental vitamin E. I also avoid too much vitamin A. And - thanks to Tanya - I take some extra K2 on occasion. All this helps reduce the chances of me getting a nosebleed, but I still get them, maybe a couple times a year. I also use herbs, and I'm careful to look up the contraindications for each herb and see if it's a blood thinner. I avoid those, too.

So that's what I do. Your DD's presentation may be different, but just be aware. If her symptoms get worse as she approaches or enters puberty...definitely get her checked. One word of awareness though. Since mine is a hormonally mediated disorder, the hematologist (being a conventional doctor) offered me birth control pills to "help" with that aspect. I declined, as you would be free to do also. But overall I think it has been helpful for me to be aware of a potential bleeding issue and have tools available if necessary.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
Thanks Tanya!! One last Q. Any idea how soon I'll see results from the K2?
When I first started, I think it reduced the likelihood the first day, but it was a few days before I'm pretty sure DS didn't have any, and then it took several weeks, maybe a month, to get him full-up on K2.

He had one nosebleed that I had a hard time stopping, we were moving and I'd slacked on his K2 for several days back when he needed a lot more. I gave him K2 during the nosebleed but I still think it was 15 mins more for it to stop (about 2 years ago, so I think that's right).

If you try it, you'd need to experiment with dosages. At this point, a drop (1 drop = 1 mg K2 for Thorne's product) a day is fine and I can even skip days, but all I'm giving him is 3 of the fish oils I mentioned which are low in EPA, and it takes a very high dose of A to see an effect, something I give him only rarely. If/when we start cod liver oil again, I'll probably need to go back to 5 mg of K2 per day (we use Carlson's 5mg capsules for that, more economical).
post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
You both are great, thanks!! With your help, this is the most informative (imo) bloody nose thread for a while (I searched back threads and they had relatively little info). Thanks so much.

For now, it feels good to just "be on it" so DC's teachers know I'm addressing the issue. Kim, I will consider testing or at least talking to DC's PED when we get around to going (which should be soon as it's been a while...don't want to get in trouble. ;-)

You're the best!!
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Ok, I came back from a shopping spree - oy. ;-) I got a little humidifier, lanolin (do you think this has a similar value as the sesame oil, 34me?), Hylands Bioplasma, and Source of Life Garden K2.

Re: Dosage

The K2 is 120 mgs/capsule. DC can swallow those so is it safe to put her on 120 at first?

The cell salts say 4 tablets 3x/day. That seems like a bit more than we can manage. If I could only give them 2x/day what would you do? 4 2x/day?
post #20 of 24
That's probably 120 mcg, right? Not 120 mg? It's probably a slightly different form of K2 than I use, so that smaller dosage should be fine (difference between the K2 in a fermented food like natto vs the K2 in an animal product like goose liver or butter).

For the cell salts, I'd just do 2 2x/day or 3 2x/day. Fewer tablets, more frequently is better, but we all need to be realistic about our lives. I leave the bottle on the counter and use the visual cue to grab them multiple times a day, often near meal times since that's convenient and the kids eat at least 3x/day, but it took a while to get into a routine that's doable for us.
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