UC advice

[NotSoRelaxedMum2B]

Hi!

Long back story but have arranged to have a homebirth with a doula and my birth partner plus NHS midwives.
But following a very intimidating meeting with the NHS midwives I am really upset and now do not believe it will be in my interests to have the midwives. They spent over a hour talking at me without even bothering to talk to me or allow me to express myself! They included a 'scenario' where if I was to dare to refuse to transfer againist their advice, they would do what they did for someone else which was phone an ambulance and the police and have me sectioned. (I have never been sectioned or had any major mental health issues - I just have a couple of phobias and the usual teenage issues years ago.)

I am now really upset and worried as I have always had issues about the medical profession (I hated being examined even as a child esp when I was ill) and now as an adult don't feel they know best.
So rather than supporting me (I have researched all the scenarieos and have a long birth plan which states which medical interventions I may accept and ones that I won't under any circumstances - the any circumstances might change but the research I have done indicates that the ones I have put down as not under any circumstances and making them go another route is safer for me and baby!)
they sound like they're not even going to support me to know my body and to know when I need intervention!
I spoke to an independant midwife who said it is not unreasonable or putting myself or baby at risk to ask for 15mins before deciding on a transfer if it is due to baby's heart rate dropping as she said most of the time its because the mother may be panicing and just needs time to relax and stop being so scared. I know if I need to transfer or have interventions I will need time to have things explained and not to have more people than nessacary in the room, I don't think I am being unreasonable in that? Or am I?

I would prefer to have just my doula and birthing partner (not to act as a midwife) in the room, so I can have someone to share the birth of baby with but as I don't want them to be put at risk of being proseceuted (midwife sounds like she would enjoy doing that to make a point that she knows best) so could end up UCing completely alone!

Has anyone else had these problems?
If you UC did you do it alone or have a birthing partner?
Also if you UC in the UK how do you registar the birth?

[Galatea]

I think it depends on what you would refuse to transfer for. To be honest, their jobs are on the line. In my area, there was a case where the parents absolutely refused to transfer against the midwife's advice, and sure enough, the baby was absolutely NOT okay, and the midwife was prosecuted. This is monstrously unfair to her, as she knew there was a problem and tried to get them to transfer.

I also dislike doctors very much, and I have had all MW-attended births, and I am comfortable with that b/c I know that my MW has my best interests at heart, and if she recommends transfer, I can trust her judgment. In the end, you are not the only person involved in the birth. It is one thing if you are alone or with your partner and you take full responsibility for the outcome, but if a MW is there, even if you make the decision, in the eyes of the law, she is still responsible for the outcome. That is why I have made sure to discuss all options and scenarios with her so that I know when things are "You could transfer for this but it is not necessary" and when it is "You must transfer now for your or the baby's safety."

[EllyMayMomma]

I have never uc'd but plan to if I ever get my BFP. My last baby was a c-section as he was stubbornly transverse but I have had 2 vag births before that so am comfortable that my body knows what to do. Here, a hospital VBAC is not allowed and midwives are not allowed home birthing VBACs so it is either c-section or UC.

I don't blame you for being so upset. I can not believe that they said they would call the police to force a section in their very first visit with you. Better to know up front though, I guess.

I would not get on well with those midwives and can see that it would make pregnancy and delivery extremely stressful. UC is something you have to be at peace with. I have heard other women say don't UC because you want to avoid bad care but because it is something you feel is right for you. To be honest though, avoiding bad care feels right to me so I will UC.

Any chance you can go with the independent midwife? Have you had a baby before? If not, you need someone close by, at the least. I would not attempt a planned UC, never having had a baby with no birth partner. You could always tell the midwife after wards "oops, came too fast."

Hopefully someone with more UC experience will answer soon!

[Ish'smom]

If you truly want to UC do a lot of research and learn how to handle emergency situations and what things mean you should seek a hospital. Also to UC you must realize that you are taking full responsibilty for the wellbeing of yourself and your baby.
My last UC was amazing and worth it. I did have to resuscitate my baby though because he came out limp and pale and unresponsive. I am not trying to scare you because that doesn't usually happen. I just want to say that you should be prepared for any possible complication. What do I do if I hemorhage? What if the baby needs help breathing? ETC. You dont need to fear these rare occurances just prepare for them.

I would say you should have support especially if this is your first birth unless you dont want it. I doula would be good if you can find someone who is comfortable being the only one there. I am a doula and have thus far only helped with UC's for family members and I ended up acting as midwife for my sister. Many doulas are not comfortable being at UC's because of the possibilty that they could be put in that position.
So I guess I would say; if you want a midwife, find a different one, the ones you spoke to sounded unfriendly and like an overall bad fit for you. If you want to UC, go for it. Just be prepared and make sure it is what you want. Plan on some support maybe a comforting sister? Or a doula.

[Ish'smom]

I forgot to mention, I did the first two hours alone, then I woke my husband for support and he called my family. My sister in law provided additional support along with my husband for the next hour and a half and for the last 15 min of pushing some other family members arrived in time to watch me push out the baby. I caught him and resuscitated him. It was a great experience and the support was nice but next time I think I want it more intimate with just my husband and I and probably the kids.

[tessie]

Originally Posted by NotSoRelaxedMum2B

Hi!

Long back story but have arranged to have a homebirth with a doula and my birth partner plus NHS midwives.
But following a very intimidating meeting with the NHS midwives I am really upset and now do not believe it will be in my interests to have the midwives. They spent over a hour talking at me without even bothering to talk to me or allow me to express myself! They included a 'scenario' where if I was to dare to refuse to transfer againist their advice, they would do what they did for someone else which was phone an ambulance and the police and have me sectioned. (I have never been sectioned or had any major mental health issues - I just have a couple of phobias and the usual teenage issues years ago.)

Did they mention this before or after you explained your birth preferences? My experience of midwives has been positive - they were always respectful and happy to explain things but ultimately they do have to follow guidelines and I don't think it's inappropriate for them to explain what could happen if you refused possibly live saving treatment. Sometimes, for example if you are haemorrhaging, there may not be time to have a nice chat about the best course of action.

Have you considered asking to meet with different NHS midwives to see if they are a better fit with you?

I would also be careful about employing a doula for an unassisted birth as the view could be taken that she was acting as a midwife and obviously it is illegal for an unqualified person to do this except in an emergency.

[hermionesmum]

It sounds like you got a real pair of bullies there! Get in touch with AIMS, (association for improvements in maternity services) who I'm sure will give you a lot of support to get the midwives to behave themselves if you want their services. www.aims.org.uk

If you don't you are at an advantage regarding registering the birth because you do at least have documented pre-natal care to prove the pregnancy and could easily just say,
"ooops, baby came too quickly"

Certainly a doula could face prosecution for attending a UC, so you have to plan on coping without her. I'd like to echo Ish'mom's statements about being well prepared if you decide to go ahead and UC.

Good Luck

[hermionesmum]

Just wanted to add that the yahoo homebirthUK group would probably also be very useful to you. Especially if you need lots of outspoken women to express outrage on your behalf and be supportive.

You'll find UC info in the UK very hard to come by because of the very real fear of prosecution. Not for the mum, but for birth partners/supporters. I suggest you be very careful about what you put on the internet.

I also need to say just how livid I am for you. The police can't section anybody for goodness sake! (Although they can enforce a section advised by a suitably qualified doctor.) The law in the UK is very much on the side of the labouring woman having rights to informed consent and refusal of treatment, but sadly there is little precedent for it being enforced and the letter of the law goes against the beliefs and assumptions of most lay people

I will be thinking of you.

[corban's mum]

hellooo im glad to have found some UK members who are up to date on this subject!

im struggling to get a HBAC in the uk, i have been given an appt at the hospital to meet with "the VBAC TEAM" to talk about risks and get a plan in place, i am pretty sure this is just code for "come in so we can scare you out of it and let you know you're going to be unsupported" *sigh*

we'll see

at the beginning of my pg the MW at my doctors surgery was all "yeah sure sweety whatever you want" thinking i'd change my mind....

...then when i saw her at 34 weeks she told me my babygirl was frank breech and at least 9lbs already, so no hope of turning her, called the consultant and booked me in for a reapeat cs. then remarked "better cancel your doula love" etc etc

well i didnt trust her judgement so i went and paid £140 for a private scan (they wouldve scanned me at 37 week on nhs but may have been too late to try and turn her by then)
it was only 12 hours after i had been diagnosed with breech that i had the private scan.... baby at that stage was in head down position and 5 1/2 lbs (she's still head down but obviously bigger now im 36+2 hehe) and i know she didnt turn overnight.

the MW called me a few days later to ask if i had got my hospital stuff ready etc for the cs, when i told her baby was head down she replied "no dear im 100% ur baby is frank and very large indeed"....when i told her about the scan she hung up........

so yeah, im finding it very hard to get support and feel like im likely to be sabotaged at any given moment. i dont want to UC but i will if i can't get a HB midwife on board *sigh* i wish i could afford a private one!

i don't mean to hijack ur thread, but would love to hear any tips too and let you know that you're (unfortunately) not alone in this. if i find out anything of use i'll PM it to you

[hermionesmum]

Corban's mum I am so sorry you're getting a hard time!

I'm afraid I don't have a very high opinion of much of the NHS, (certain individual practitioners accepted.)

My advice to anyone struggling would be to never go to appointments alone; take a partner if they are well informed and a strong personality or a doula. Take a dictophone and sweetly ask if they would mind if you recorded consultations. Oh, and my favourite phrase for a birth plan:
"My consent to treatment is conditional upon..." for the real biggies.

[hermionesmum]

SORRY!
have fixed the aims link above (org. not co.)
You will now find it goes somewhere appropriate and not to an association of accountants!

[corban's mum]

thanks, i may well try that approach on friday, though im also worried about getting their backs up and them becoming even more difficult *sigh*

i feel like im backed into a corner, like if i stand up for myself and state my rights that i'll be cut loose from care but then if i don't stand up for myself i'll be pushed into a medicalised birth in a hospital that i'm terrified of *sigh*

[hermionesmum]

Corban's mum, frankly either your midwife made a serious misjudgment which nearly resulted in you having surgery and your baby being born early and potentially compromised, or you've caught her out in a lie!

Aims will make a better job of advising you, but PLEASE complain about her and insist on being provided with a midwife who has experience of VBAC homebirths.

[corban's mum]

i changed doctors surgeries and the MW i saw yesterday basically said "i'll give you a chance at homebirthing - that's all i can do with any homebirth, but if i'm not happy on the day for example if fetal heart rate is looking unstable then i will transfer you" which is honest i guess and all i want is a chance at a natural normal birthing, if things arent going well then of course i'll transfer. but i dont wanna get pushed into transfer for no reason on the day by a over-cautious mw.

im trying to write a list of circumstances in which i would transfer and a list of things which i would rather try and work thru at home. like if labour stalls i wanna just sleep and chill at home, not transfer and force things along etc etc

[ashleybrook]

congrats cordan's mum....i'm glad you feel like you have a chance with your change! and i love your list idea. this is a great idea to discuss to make sure you're on similar pages about what means transfer, and what doesn't!

ashley

[corban's mum]

thanks think im gonna post up a thread asking for ideas

[puddleduck]

Originally Posted by NotSoRelaxedMum2B

Hi!

Long back story but have arranged to have a homebirth with a doula and my birth partner plus NHS midwives.
But following a very intimidating meeting with the NHS midwives I am really upset and now do not believe it will be in my interests to have the midwives. They spent over a hour talking at me without even bothering to talk to me or allow me to express myself! They included a 'scenario' where if I was to dare to refuse to transfer againist their advice, they would do what they did for someone else which was phone an ambulance and the police and have me sectioned. (I have never been sectioned or had any major mental health issues - I just have a couple of phobias and the usual teenage issues years ago.)

I am now really upset and worried as I have always had issues about the medical profession (I hated being examined even as a child esp when I was ill) and now as an adult don't feel they know best.
So rather than supporting me (I have researched all the scenarieos and have a long birth plan which states which medical interventions I may accept and ones that I won't under any circumstances - the any circumstances might change but the research I have done indicates that the ones I have put down as not under any circumstances and making them go another route is safer for me and baby!)
they sound like they're not even going to support me to know my body and to know when I need intervention!
I spoke to an independant midwife who said it is not unreasonable or putting myself or baby at risk to ask for 15mins before deciding on a transfer if it is due to baby's heart rate dropping as she said most of the time its because the mother may be panicing and just needs time to relax and stop being so scared. I know if I need to transfer or have interventions I will need time to have things explained and not to have more people than nessacary in the room, I don't think I am being unreasonable in that? Or am I?

I would prefer to have just my doula and birthing partner (not to act as a midwife) in the room, so I can have someone to share the birth of baby with but as I don't want them to be put at risk of being proseceuted (midwife sounds like she would enjoy doing that to make a point that she knows best) so could end up UCing completely alone!

Has anyone else had these problems?
If you UC did you do it alone or have a birthing partner?
Also if you UC in the UK how do you registar the birth?

Hi, i've had 2 UC's in the UK, both water births.
I did not tell the midwife that it was my plan to have a UC but played the game and planned a NHS supported home birth. I did get annoyed both times when they tried to book me in for inductions after 41 weeks (mine were born 40 +11 & 40 +13). With my first UC i called the hospital after i had given birth and told them it had happened quickly and asked for a midwife - they wanted to send an ambulance but i refused. With my second UC i called my NHS midwife 36 hours after the birth and told them that i'd had the baby and they could come round - they 'told me off' but there wasn't much they could do.

I have had my partner there both times but no doula - i don't think a doula will attend a UC because they will probably get in trouble - but there is little chance of them being able to do anything about your husband being there.

I had UC's because i hate anyone being there while i'm giving birth, i even send DH out of the room - he comes back when i'm pushing or need a drink. I wouldn't have one just because the NHS midwives are rubbish, you have to have real confidence in the birthing process. If there was no way you could afford an independent midwife then i'd consider waiting until you felt pushy before ringing the NHS midwives (as long as you felt everything was going ok.)

As for birth certificate, you will have no problems because the midwives will come round afterwards and sort out the paperwork. If you'd gone UP then UC there is more of a problem.

HTH
Vikki