HELP! 2.5y/o and bedtime routine/cleaning up toys

[ILovePie]

I don't know where to even begin.

I am on prenatal bedrest (sort of), expecting a baby in the next 3 or 4 weeks.

DS (almost 2.5) is on a maaaaaaajor limit testing bender.

Right now, the biggest consistent challenge is bedtime.

In the beginning, he refuses to help clean up his toys. We are by absolutely no means neat freaks around here. I've talked to him about why we clean up his toys. Especially after he's stepped on a Lego brick, tripped over a car, or not had the space to build a giant train track. That doesn't motivate him (especially because, in those moments, I'm not really able to help him because of my giant belly and the bedrest...)

So, we've been setting a timer (with a very reasonable amount of time on it) and saying that we need his help to get everything picked up before the timer beeps, otherwise we aren't going to have time to read a story in bed.

At first, there were lots of tears over lost stories, and then he helped...and now he just outright refuses and isn't even particularly upset when we don't have time to read a story.

Having to pick up all the toys is a lot of work for my husband - who is picking up a lot of slack right now since I can't even do dishes half the time, can't help with cooking, and am not doing any small amount of cleaning up the stupid toys during the day.

Anyway, tonight bedtime went like this: DS refused to pick up toys. He even pulled some off of shelves, which he knows makes us angry and undoes our work. Then we nursed and sang songs (one song each side is all I can take right now). I informed him before we even started that we were going to do one song each side, then do hug and kiss and he was going to snuggle Daddy. I was up for doing some more dishes, and needed to go do them (the kitchen is a disaster - there's no room to do anything BUT wash dishes right now!). So, it came time for hug and kiss and he started throwing a tantrum - kicking at the bed right next to my belly. Which he also knows is an absolute no. So I got up without a hug/kiss, cursed at him, and left. He got upset, came out, wanted to "say hi to mommy." I said hi, told him I was very angry and he needed to go back to bed. Or he could go be alone in his room, but I was too angry to be with him right then.

Then he asked for something to eat. Clearly stalling.

Several trips in and out of his room, him being totally dramatic asking to nurse (no way), be hugging him and holding him and talking to him. Finally, DH was so desperate to go to sleep (he goes to sleep with DS) that he offered DS a story - the deal being he would go to sleep right afterwards.

I'm at a loss. The limit testing going on in my home is making me NUTS.

[ssh]

2 year olds do not have impulse control yet. Impulse control is a higher reasoning function of the frontal lobes, which aren't developed at age 2. Many 3 year olds are still very impulsive. Your expectations seem to be for an older child, maybe age 4. 2.5 years old is still very much a baby. Also it's a common age for tantrums and emotional outburst. They just can't deal with their overwhelming emotions at that age. Going to his room to be alone? Kids that age are still experiencing separation anxiety, so being alone at bedtime knowing your mommy is angry and you can't even have a kiss and hug is probably very scary and emotionally painful. Being angry at your DS for things beyond his control doesn't make a lot of sense. A really good book about how our parenting effects our LOs development is The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. It has a lot of detailed information about development. It's very helpful to have realistic expectations.

My almost 5 year old DD was still co-sleeping and nursing to sleep at 2.5. It was also her most tantrum prone age. She helps around the house alot now, but still needs help when it comes to picking up her toys.

[EdnaMarie]

I think you are expecting a LOT of a 2.5 year old. First of all, to have the attention to pick up all those toys. Second, to control impulses for that long, even with rewards. Third, yeah, to go to bed with a routine that is basically riling him up, a battle every time.

As an example, my child is nearly four. At 2.5 she was just learning to sleep in her own bed, but her routine was bath, jammies, brush teeth, story and song, lights out. "I'll check on you in three minutes." I'm not saying she didn't clean up, but it wasn't before bedtime. It was when I had the energy to do it.

As another example from a VERY mainstream family I know, actually several, is the bath-jammies-story-lights-out routine. And that is for three-four year olds.

My suggestion for you would be that he picks up toys before dinner, with a parent. Sing the clean-up song together. Trick him: if he picks something up to play with it, say, "Oh, look, DS is putting the truck away! Thanks! Great! Here, let me help [take toy, put away]. What a great helper!!! High-five!!!" If he throws it down: "Oh, the airplane, yes, that goes here, not the floor, thanks a lot, buddy, good try." Smiles, hugs, high-fives, etc. Or give him a more concrete task, one at a time. Pretend you can't pick something up because it's SO HEAVY. "OOOOF, I didn't know this fire truck was SO HEAVY! Can you get it, DS?" (My child can play that game for like... 30 minutes. She thinks it's hilarious.)

Yes, it's hard. But he's 2.5. The likelihood of rewards working consistently are very low. So your choices are battles, games, or doing it yourself. There is not a "just do it" choice.

Then do a more calming, togetherness-oriented bedtime routine with special big hug time and kiss-in-the-bed time. These don't have to be drawn out and it will take awhile but hopefully it will be easier without the toy battle.

The limit testing going on in my home is making me NUTS.

I understand how you feel, but have you considered that being on bedrest and out of control of your situation and being pregnant is more what's making you NUTS? And that this is just one thing, but it's something you feel you can do something about (even if you can't change your son's developmental age)?

Because I have sad news for you. 2.5 is the beginning. The end is closer to kindergarten. So this is something you need to learn to cope with. I have used a cognitive behavior therapy workbook, myself, to eliminate / minimize negative thoughts about my daughter's behavior. I have replaced them with "check expectations", for one.

I am willing to bet that one reason this seems so important is that you can't imagine how you'll manage when the baby comes. But you will manage! You will figure it out. You can do this.

[ILovePie]

This WAS working before. That's why I consider it limit testing. We DO make it fun, and we don't expect him to clean the whole time. He plays, that's fine. Really, we're not neat freaks or drill sergeants!

Frankly, we set the timer for how much time it will take for US to pick up the toys with extremely minimal help from DS.

The limit testing comes in the form of doing things he KNOWS make us angry or he's not supposed to do. Pulling everything off the shelves, or repeating actions he perhaps just did accidentally and I said, "ouch. That hurt. Be careful." He'll do it again and again with a smile on his face.

He doesn't sleep alone. We have no expectation that he is going to go to sleep alone in the near future. He goes in his room if I need space or someone else needs space.

With all the limit testing he's doing (which is definitely related to the bedrest - I know he's angry, but that doesn't mean I can let him abuse me), I really need space sometimes. Sometimes I go in our bedroom - but he will bang down the door. The easiest way for ME to get space is for HIM to go in his room. Otherwise he will not leave me alone or give me quiet - unless I'm actually crying. Then he's really sweet.

I'm not able to just stand up and walk away, or stand up and remain standing to keep him from climbing me. I have to remain sitting or laying down almost all day.

[JudiAU]

Do you expect to pick up all of his toys by himself? That would be pretty overwhelming to a 2.5. I expect DS to *help* pick up toys and be an active participant but he just has to cooperate. I only expect a minor level of actual assistance.

I don't think lack of toy picking up should result in no stories. That doesn't make any sense. You are acting like the story is the treat rather than a cherished part of the day. If he doesn't help pick the toys, then how about putting them away in another room for a period. We pick up our toys so we have a clean and fun place to play the next day. So that our toys don't get broken because we have too many out. So that we have space for the fun.

[Friday13th]

I have an almost 3 year old and a newborn so I know where you're coming from.
I do agree with the PP that the story should be part of the bedtime routine rather than dependent on clean-up. We do nightly clean-up during which DS is expected to help (find your trains, books on shelf, very specific directions and once he gets started he takes a lot more initiative and does most of it himself) if he chooses not to help Mommy or Daddy will clean up the toys and he won't get to play with them the next day. We've never actually had to do that but it was the most logic based thing we could come up with.
It's a tough age and tougher still when you're pregnant, I totally get that. Try to enjoy the time you have left with him as your one and only instead of focusing on the the more challenging behaviors.

[Dingletwitz]

I use a 5 minute guideline for toys. I do not require dd (3) to pick up any toys--have not brought that one into play yet. I spend 5 minutes picking up toys at night, usually less. If it's starting to take longer than that, some toys must be put away in the bin (out of rotation). My feeling is that it's my need to have the toys off the floor, so I must pick them up. Dd will help with getting things moved about for the vacuum, so I see that as the kind of help I'm looking for. It's worked for me so far. Putting nighttime demands on dd seems to be a battle I'm not willing to wage at present--so as long as we get some clean teeth and jammies, I'm a happy mommy.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by ILovePie

This WAS working before. That's why I consider it limit testing. We DO make it fun, and we don't expect him to clean the whole time. He plays, that's fine. Really, we're not neat freaks or drill sergeants!

Even if he was picking up that still doesn't mean your DS has any impulse control. Maybe he thought it was fun at first and the novelty has worn off. 2 year olds and many 3 year olds don't have impulse control, it's a neurological issue. He's not doing stuff because he knows it makes you angry, he's doing things because he can't resist his impulses. His little frontal lobes are just not functioning enough yet. Also when a child is 2 they begin to realize they are separate from their parents and begin to see how much control they can have over their self, including their actions. So what looks like rebellion is actually the child learning they are a separate person and can choose their own behavior. That added to the no impulse control can give you some really annoying behavior. I still suggest becoming familiar with normal development. There are a lot of normal annoying behaviors to come, different ones at different ages. Knowing what to expect helps you deal with it proactively and not be overly upset by very temporary behaviors.

[EdnaMarie]

I hear you, OP.

I didn't realize you were already making it a game, but it doesn't change the fundamental recommendation. It's not that I didn't think it was limit-testing. Maybe he liked the game before and he doesn't now. Like it or not, though, he's chosen this battle. If it's not this, it will be something else. Because his brain is programmed to test limits. It waxes and wanes but it doesn't stop for most of childhood. That's how they learn.

It's not something you can turn off (there is no parenting style that avoids it, not even extreme punishment or extreme permissiveness--believe me I've tried ).

It might have "worked" before because he didn't realize he had options. Well, that idea has gotten into his head and ILovePie, This Is Your Life!

But let's say you "win" this battle and he agrees to pick up his toys. I'm willing to bet a lot of money he will find another place to test limits. God forbid it's the potty or the carseat or food. :::Panic:::

Now, again, I understand the need for sleep. It's very important for all of you. That's why I suggest separating the toy and sleep issue. If he's getting into a battle, punishments and all, right before bedtime, it's not surprising he's not falling asleep, you know?

I am continually disappointed by the fact that whatever was working last week does not work this week. It's so irritating! But that is how it goes.

I really like Adventures in Gentle Discipline as a book that helps me accept my kids as normal.

[mamazee]

What worked best for me was to stop thinking of picking up toys as something to force to happen, and start thinking of it as a habit to create for my dd. So dh or I would pick up toys with her, routinely, on a regular schedule, and create a routine. It took a long time, but she's 8 now and she goes in her room and cleans up on her own now regularly. Now, there are still occasions where I have to remind her, but less and less the older she gets. I think if there is no emotional drama around picking up toys, if it's approached in a relaxed way (that doesn't invite power struggles as much), and if someone does it with him on a very regular and routine basis, he will probably just get used to it. But it'll have to be done with him for a long time, and gradually he'll do more of if and you or dh will do less over time, until eventually he's doing it all himself, and eventually if he gets used to being neat and living in a neat environment, he'll probably want to keep it neat and will hopefully do it himself with no reminders or prompting.

That's my goal with my dds, that they get used to a neat environment and over time want to keep their environment neat without my input, because that way when they are grown and living on their own, hopefully the habit will have been thoroughly established. It wasn't for me and it took me a while to get used to keeping my place neat once I became an adult.

Anyway, that's my suggestion, to look at the long-term big picture, and try to reach that goal, instead of worrying just about toys just now at the age of 3, when he's really not at a developmental stage to keep up on it by himself anyway. But the good news is that he is at the perfect age for creating a habit!