video of my daughter's reading (small update in post 14)

[minkin03]

this is my other post regarding her writing: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1258735

but i wanted to take a video of her reading and see what others thought. i picked out the book "Harry and the Lady Next Door". scholastic says it's grade level equivalent is 1.8 and the lexile level is 350L. my dd is 7 and just started 2nd grade.

keep in mind we read at least 4 nights a week and we've been working on reading for 2 years now. and this isn't the first time she's read this book (or me reading it to her) although it has been a month or 2 since we've read it.

thoughts on her reading?

http://www.youtube.com/user/kanabean.../1/ZHZ8v_yFqrE

http://www.youtube.com/user/kanabean.../0/KVYWwqRqJ3c


observations in a nutshell:

- reversals with letters and numbers, but is more frequent with her numbers, 16 becomes 61 (and reversed), 50 becomes 05 (reversed too)

- occasional mirror writing

- difficulty tracking

- difficulty with spelling but can spell better orally than written. once got a 33% (something around there) on her written test, but when the teacher gave her the test orally she got like a 93%

- has a good sight word vocabulary but has difficulty sounding out new words as you will see in the video.

- reading comprehension is poor and even when she reads incorrectly (wrong word or skips words) she doesn't seem to question that it doesn't make sense.

- continuely confuses concepts such as early/late, before/after, yesterday/tomorrow, fastforward/rewind, which sometimes makes having conversations with her difficult when i don't understand and she gets frustrated and says "nevermind"

- on her vision screening from a developmental optometrist she scored as a 13 yo and 11 yo on visual discrimination and memory, but when she had to visually remember something and recreate it on paper she scored as a 5 yo.

- when i presented the results of the vision screening which showed she has areas of concern the teacher (first year teaching) and director of her charter school said that she'll mature when she's ready. yet a month later i get her report card at the end of the year and the teacher checked areas of concern for her writing and reading. so which is it?

i'm sure there are more that i'm missing but if you search any of my threads i've started i'm sure you will find more.

[GoBecGo]

I know nothing. So beware!

Is she unable to track? Or is she hurrying to get reading done with because she doesn't care for it? I cannot tell from the video - maybe she knows the story really well and cannot be bothered reading it perfectly, or maybe the words jump around for her (dyslexia?) and make it harder - she doesn't even seem to be able to track words with her FINGER well - does she do better with a cardboard tracker (do they still make those? I used them at school, like a card strip with a slot cut in it so you could only see one line)?

How does she do with entirely new books? I thought with the "peanut" thing, she didn't get that you saying "pea" WAS "pea" and not just the initial "p" as she was still trying to sound out the e and the a of pea. So maybe that, as an unfamiliar word, wasn't too good an example...?

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

I know nothing. So beware!

Is she unable to track? Or is she hurrying to get reading done with because she doesn't care for it? I cannot tell from the video - maybe she knows the story really well and cannot be bothered reading it perfectly, or maybe the words jump around for her (dyslexia?) and make it harder - she doesn't even seem to be able to track words with her FINGER well - does she do better with a cardboard tracker (do they still make those? I used them at school, like a card strip with a slot cut in it so you could only see one line)?

How does she do with entirely new books? I thought with the "peanut" thing, she didn't get that you saying "pea" WAS "pea" and not just the initial "p" as she was still trying to sound out the e and the a of pea. So maybe that, as an unfamiliar word, wasn't too good an example...?

i've tried the card strip and it doesn't work. the only way she seems to be able to stay on track is if i do it with my finger. and when it comes to sounding out unfamiliar words i usually have to break up and box in the parts of the word to get her to sound it out. good point with the peanut word. i didn't think of it that way. but she had similar problems with the word "backpack" in another video. she seems to get the first parts of, ie "back" but can't get the second parts, ie. "pack".

[sbgrace]

Did the developmental optometrist find any issues with either tracking or convergence? I'm assuming he/she looked closely at that? You mentioned tracking. If that is an issue I would pursue vision therapy. It really helped my child.

But vision therapy won't help if there is dyslexia. You can have both issues and both would need addressed. Based on what you wrote I'd suggest you look at flags for dyslexia.
http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by sbgrace

Did the developmental optometrist find any issues with either tracking or convergence? I'm assuming he/she looked closely at that? You mentioned tracking. If that is an issue I would pursue vision therapy. It really helped my child.

But vision therapy won't help if there is dyslexia. You can have both issues and both would need addressed. Based on what you wrote I'd suggest you look at flags for dyslexia.
http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html

the results showed problems with tracking (equivalent of a 5 yo), and the directionality of a 4 1/2 yo. on the dyslexia screening he did she scored boderline normal for eidetic encoding, and mildly below normal for phonetic encoding. decoding grade level he gave her was of a kindy student even though she was in 1st at the time of the test last march. her fine visual motor skills were on track for her age.

we're on limited resources to help her. i would spend the money in a heartbeat if i felt it would definately help her. but i have uncertainty as to what the problem really is and can't afford $75 for 30 min. sessions that may or may not help.

[minkin03]

anybody else have any thoughts on her reading?

developmentally on track?

just a tracking problem or could it also be dyslexia?

[LauraLoo]

My concern would be that she isn't tracking, at minimum. From the videos it seems that she can't keep her place and that her eyes don't really seem to be following your fingers or hers.

What if you showed her the word "peanut" in isolation -- no other words around it. Would she be able to pronounce it?

Have you seen this website?
http://www.visionandlearning.org/

If you've been working on this for awhile, it's hard to say if it is dyslexia, (I am not a professional, so couldn't speculate - disclaimer!) since she may have memorized parts by now. Was it harder in the beginning, or is it relatively the same as when you first started?

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by LauraLoo

Was it harder in the beginning, or is it relatively the same as when you first started?

Two years ago when she first started learning to read it was rather easy for her. I was actually impressed b/c she learned 50 sight words in a matter of a few days. And continued to learn many sight words rather quickly and would read simple books with the sight words she had learned. That's how I started with her shortly after she turned 5.

At her montessori school her teacher did work with her on reading Bob Books. Halfway through kindy at the montessori school it closed and she switched to the charter school she's at now. There they worked with her on sounding out, spelling, letter sounds, vowel sounds, sight words, etc...

I'd have to say it started to get hard in the last 9-12 months. I sometimes wonder if she's just memorizing the way the words look. She'd confuse three and there, where and there, stop and spot, etc... that's improved but still happens about 30% of the time.

ETA: Reading with her now is very painful, for me. I hate to see her struggle so much and at times I'm in tears for her b/c of it. She has a book report/project she has to do. She has til the middle of October to read a chapter book and make a project to go with the book she read. We aren't getting very far very quickly. I have to re-read what she's read just to be sure she's understood it. And I'm cheating a little by having her read a page and I read a page b/c otherwise I don't know if we'll get it done in time.

[nextcommercial]

Listening to her, she's obviously very bright, and very articulate.

I don't really know that much about it. But, I had dyslexia and other learning disabilities as a student.

I could read better than any other kid in the grade. As long as it was a sight word. I could read the really hard books. As long as those words were in my vocabulary. (Seriously.. what the heck is a peanut whistle anyway?)

I could NOT move down to the next line easily though. Not only do you have to move down to the next line, you also have to go back to the right side of the page again.

I could not copy a shape. I could free draw very well, but I couldn't copy shapes.

I could not learn to print. I knew how I wanted it to look, but I could not make my hand do what I saw in my head. I still can't write well at all. It's very, very hard for me.

I couldn't copy the face on a clock. If the lines were already there, I could put the numbers where they would go, but I couldn't write the numbers without the lines. I also would write the whole clock backwards.

I don't "get" clockwise, or counterclockwise. I couldn't learn left or right until I was driving, and then it had meaning to me. I have no idea what North South East or West means on a map. But, I know North South East and West when I am outside.

Square dancing in school was a freaking nightmare. (all that left/right crap)

I was taught "cheats". I couldn't write b or d the right way, so on the top of every page, I wrote the word 'bed". If it looked like a bed, and not a table with two chairs facing out, (deb) I did it right. So, I'd refer to that when I needed a b or d. I couldn't write 5 correctly either, so I'd look at the clock. to check how it was supposed to look.

I had cheats for adding and subtracting too. That way, nobody knows you are counting. It just looks like you are tapping on your page.

There's nothing wrong with sight reading. If you think about it, we almost exclusively sight read now. We just have a bigger vocabulary, and more experience. Just read the ingredients list on a shampoo or soap in your house. You could try to sound it out, but you have no idea if you are saying it right.

I'd definately have her tested. But, I would still keep working with her on improving her sight words and her vocabulary. I'd also give her harder books, and just read them with her. Junie B Jones Is lots of fun to read!

[Kaydove]

She sounds like she has dyslexia, very similar to how I am/was. I didn't learn to read at all until 1st grade, but I went on to love reading.

Most of the things nextcommercial mentioned above sound very similar to me. I was labeled borderline dyslexia and ADD when I was in school, but I think their testing was skewed so that a child would have to be severe for them to get any school paid help. If you can, send her for private vs. school paid evaluation and tutoring. My previous boss did this for his son even though his kids are in private school. I was very open with my dyslexia with him and I think my story of being "borderline" and how I struggled through school inspired him to seek out private vs. school based testing. His son was diagnosed borderline as well, and he's doing great now with tutoring!

I think sharing the reading work load (her read a page, you read a page) is an excellent idea! From someone who struggles with almost all the things your daughter does, this will help her immensely. If her teacher(s) is more open to oral testing vs. written, than she could possibly sail beautifully through school! Auditory learning and oral testing sound like her strong suit. Maybe look into audio books?

Accommodation for dyslexia are pretty simple changes: given more time in tests, use of calculator in all math tests, oral testing vs. written, audio books, etc. It's surprising how simple or a small change can help!

Definitely look into evaluation for dyslexia, best to discover how your daughter learns best earlier than later. Ask for 2nd opinions!

(Please note that I didn't ever call dyslexia a 'disability' because its not! It's a learning and brain function style.)

[LynnS6]

Adding my 2 cents. I'm deliberately using some of the reading 'jargon' because I think that might help you talk to the school. Things that I noticed on the video:

-Great trouble tracking.
-Reliance on sight words -- it looks to me like she's memorized high frequency words but can't easily decode new ones
-Using 'chunks' rather than decoding. So, she recognized 'fire' + another word and assumed it was 'hydrant' (which is a word that commonly follows fire). This suggests she has a good sense of words that go together, but isn't decoding them.
-Some difficulty recognizing the same word in a new context (she stumbled on 'sang' the second time she saw it, and had to go back to the beginning)
-Difficulty in blending sounds/parts of words -- even if she'd misunderstood the "pea" as "p", she still should have been able to blend 'nut' to get 'peanut'.
-Difficulty in understanding what she had read at times, but no apparent difficulty in understanding spoken words.

As others have said, it looks like she's relying almost entirely on recognizing the whole shape of a word (sight reading) rather than sounding things out. That's a fine strategy some of the time, but she needs to add the skill of decoding and blending. I'm primarily a whole word reader, and so is my dd. But we can sound out words if we have to. It's not clear that your dd can.

I would definitely have her evaluated for dyslexia. I don't know enough about tracking issues to know whether it makes sense to treat the reading issues first or the reading issues and the tracking issues.

ETA: One of my friends has a daughter who has dyslexia pretty severely. She's in high school and they still 'share' the workload of reading. There's nothing wrong with that.

[terra-pip]

just a parent as well and no way an expert...but from my watching of the video I would agree with what others are saying. She seems to be having a hard time with phonics. If she's not getting extensive help in phonics in 2nd grade now at school I would take up the slack big time at home, mama.

The peanut word...she kept saying "per" so could that n be looking like an r to her? Does she know word families? does she know ea is like the sound in pea, sea, tea etc. The letters could be "jumpy" for her if she is having vision issues.

When she makes a mistake do you stop and work on it? I know you were likely just taping so others could see her reading, but whenever she skips a word, or reads singing for sang for instance then I would stop her right there and work on that.

I would say vision and phonics decoding are what she needs to work on, and if she can't read confidently Harry Zion than it's completely unfair of her teachers to expect her to read a longer chapter book and do writing projects on it. Just my 2 cents. We learn to read in developmental steps and if steps are skipped or kids are forced to do something beyond the step they are at then it will only frustrate her more.

I don't have any experience with dyslexia but I have read that extensive help in phonics as well as some physical/sensory style work can help.

Hang in there mama. I have a child who is struggling with math and number sense and it is related to some sensory and pragmatic speech issues. I know how heartbreaking it can feel.

How's her comprehension? Does she understand the story she read, how the pictures relate, understand when you read to her? And no worries, at a 2nd grade level a parent ought to be involved in still reading aloud to her, and listening to her read. I wouldn't expect a 7 year old to complete a reading assignment by themselves unless they were reading for pleasure, hanging out with their books alone.

I also highly recommend the book The Mislabeled Child!

[karne]

Originally Posted by minkin03

ETA: Reading with her now is very painful, for me. I hate to see her struggle so much and at times I'm in tears for her b/c of it. She has a book report/project she has to do. She has til the middle of October to read a chapter book and make a project to go with the book she read. We aren't getting very far very quickly. I have to re-read what she's read just to be sure she's understood it. And I'm cheating a little by having her read a page and I read a page b/c otherwise I don't know if we'll get it done in time.

I had this very same experience with my dd. It was heart wrenching at times to sit through reading aloud, because it wasn't fluent, was such a struggle, and so frustrating.

I want to encourage you though, that if your dd is dyslexic, she is doing what many kids w/dyslexia do at this stage in reading, and you're having the same experience as many, many other parents trying to support their children. I can feel for exactly where you are in the process! With help, and with time, and with much practice, it can become better.

Sharing reading, pre-reading passages, or difficult words, checking for comprehension-these are all really valuable techniques. It's actually really important for our kids to hear us reading. I continue to read aloud to my middle school dd, primarily for enjoyment and shared experience, but also to model. And, she reads to me every single night. It's pleasurable now, but it took a while to get there.

The video was exactly what my dd looked like. Hang in there-you can help her with this.

[minkin03]

well, i got my dd's progress report for the first quarter of the semester. she has a 100% in science and social studies, and a 98% in math. however, writing she got a 74% and reading a 56%.

and a few days later she brought home her weekly reading comprehension tests and she got a 59%. the teacher even wrote in pen on the paper for my signature. as though i don't care or look through my dd's work. if she only knew i actually am keeping, dating, and organizing by subject her papers so i can follow her development. if she only knew that my dd read the story in class, at home to me, and then i read it to her, discussed it with her, and yet she still couldn't pass the test (even after the teacher has made accomodations and gave her only 3 multiple choice options instead of 4). how much worse does my dd's grades have to get in reading and writing until the teacher realizes that maybe her struggling is much deeper than 'her not working hard enough'.

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by terra-pip

just a parent as well and no way an expert...but from my watching of the video I would agree with what others are saying. She seems to be having a hard time with phonics. If she's not getting extensive help in phonics in 2nd grade now at school I would take up the slack big time at home, mama.

The peanut word...she kept saying "per" so could that n be looking like an r to her? Does she know word families? does she know ea is like the sound in pea, sea, tea etc. The letters could be "jumpy" for her if she is having vision issues.

When she makes a mistake do you stop and work on it? I know you were likely just taping so others could see her reading, but whenever she skips a word, or reads singing for sang for instance then I would stop her right there and work on that.

I would say vision and phonics decoding are what she needs to work on, and if she can't read confidently Harry Zion than it's completely unfair of her teachers to expect her to read a longer chapter book and do writing projects on it. Just my 2 cents. We learn to read in developmental steps and if steps are skipped or kids are forced to do something beyond the step they are at then it will only frustrate her more.

I don't have any experience with dyslexia but I have read that extensive help in phonics as well as some physical/sensory style work can help.

Hang in there mama. I have a child who is struggling with math and number sense and it is related to some sensory and pragmatic speech issues. I know how heartbreaking it can feel.

How's her comprehension? Does she understand the story she read, how the pictures relate, understand when you read to her? And no worries, at a 2nd grade level a parent ought to be involved in still reading aloud to her, and listening to her read. I wouldn't expect a 7 year old to complete a reading assignment by themselves unless they were reading for pleasure, hanging out with their books alone.

I also highly recommend the book The Mislabeled Child!

her comprehension is pretty poor. she'll jump all over the place, read the words incorrectly, and skip words while reading to the point where what she's reading doesn't make any sense. she never seems to question the nonsense she's reading.

we read together every night, meaning she reads to me orally. maybe 2 nights out of the week i'll have her read on her own (in her head).

eta: we start out with her reading to me and then i read to her. i read to her every single night b/c she absolutely loves to be read to. her favorite right now is "where the sidewalk ends".

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by karne

I had this very same experience with my dd. It was heart wrenching at times to sit through reading aloud, because it wasn't fluent, was such a struggle, and so frustrating.

I want to encourage you though, that if your dd is dyslexic, she is doing what many kids w/dyslexia do at this stage in reading, and you're having the same experience as many, many other parents trying to support their children. I can feel for exactly where you are in the process! With help, and with time, and with much practice, it can become better.

Sharing reading, pre-reading passages, or difficult words, checking for comprehension-these are all really valuable techniques. It's actually really important for our kids to hear us reading. I continue to read aloud to my middle school dd, primarily for enjoyment and shared experience, but also to model. And, she reads to me every single night. It's pleasurable now, but it took a while to get there.

The video was exactly what my dd looked like. Hang in there-you can help her with this.

thank you for your post and advice karne. it's comforting to hear i'm not alone with this. i feel so bad for my dd b/c her self-esteem is already taking such a hard hit. i've asked her if she wants me to homeschool her but she says she will miss her friends.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by minkin03

if she only knew that my dd read the story in class, at home to me, and then i read it to her, discussed it with her, and yet she still couldn't pass the test (even after the teacher has made accomodations and gave her only 3 multiple choice options instead of 4). how much worse does my dd's grades have to get in reading and writing until the teacher realizes that maybe her struggling is much deeper than 'her not working hard enough'.

when did you talk to the teacher last? The teacher needs to know this information very soon. You can also request, now (in writing) that she be assessed.