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Please tell me nightweaning gets easier! - Page 2

post #21 of 40
I think the nightweaning experience seriously depends on the temperament of the child. It's hard to read the posts that say "oh, it worked for us" when you have a ruthlessly persistent and determined child who just won't take the fact that they aren't getting milk on demand. That was my child. I still have not succeeded in nightweaning, although a few things have improved for us.

A few months before my son turned 2 I decided to try nightweaning. I nursed him down for sleep and then at his first waking nursed him until he started to drift off again and unlatched him and said "milks are going to sleep, night night" and he awoke completely, started screaming at the top of his lungs, got up out of bed and walked all the way across the room in the dark and stood there screaming and screaming. I tried to go comfort him and he pushed me away. When he finally calmed enough to nurse again, of course I nursed him.

A few months later I tried the NCSS techniques, and he actually had a sleep regression. He started absolutely refusing to go to sleep for hours and hours. This lasted about a month.

At some point, in desperation, I started sleeping by myself in another room. DH does not do very much night parenting, definitely is not willing to learn to put DS to sleep without handing him to me for nursing, so I was on my own even though at this point he and DS were still cosleeping while I was across the house sleeping alone. DS began sleeping really well! But as a long term thing it was not the solution for us. I still had to sleep with the monitor on and get up to nurse him back down when he'd wake (which for most nights was not very often, thank goodness).

The next thing we tried was getting him a twin mattress and putting it near the foot of our bed. I was able to come out of self banishment and he transitioned to his own bed very well.

But, the most amazing thing was that someone told me about the counting technique. Apparently it comes from the NCSS but it was not in the book I read, which was the Toddlers/Preschoolers version. You say something like "We'll stop nursing in 10 seconds", and if it's at a time when you want the child to sleep you say something like "We'll stop nursing in 10 seconds, and then I'd like you to roll over and go to sleep" Then start counting as slowly or quickly as you wish. I have no idea why, but this works in a way that nothing else worked. Using it, we have actually been able to begin the process of breaking the nursing to sleep habit. DS is extremely responsive to the counting! And it's a calm, pleasant counting. Most of the time he rolls over before I even reach #3! And he honestly tries to sleep. Sometimes he can, sometimes not. If not, we nurse a little more and then try again. Over time, it has become easier and easier and he's become better at putting himself to sleep.

It's not total nightweaning, but it has made the situation much more tolerable for me and maybe in time it will help us with the total nightweaning. In any case it eliminated most of the drama that we were experiencing with my other attempts and I get to feel a little less exhausted by our nursing relationship. He's getting his 2 year molars which has definitely disturbed his sleep a lot these past couple of weeks, but other than that, he is often sleeping either through the night or waking only once to nurse and then going back to sleep when I ask him to.

Good luck in finding the method that will work for you and your child. It can really be an adventure with these persistent children!
post #22 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna GS View Post
I think the nightweaning experience seriously depends on the temperament of the child. It's hard to read the posts that say "oh, it worked for us" when you have a ruthlessly persistent and determined child who just won't take the fact that they aren't getting milk on demand. That was my child. I still have not succeeded in nightweaning, although a few things have improved for us.
Yes, exactly! DD was very persistent, and still is when she wants to night nurse. That's why I didn't withhold it from her; because she so obviously wanted/needed it


Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185 View Post
Some babies get used to having those calories at night, even if they don't necessarily "need" them. At 18 months they can certainly get all of their calories during the day. If you continue to nurse them at night, they will continue to get calories and their body will continue to "need" calories at night. Once their body gets used to not eating during the night, they can sleep much easier.

Once we started nightweaning, my DS started eating a LOT more solids during the day. And once his body got used to not getting calories at night, he didn't need them anymore and he stopped waking up.
And some babies, like the OP's, who started signing frantically for milk, have an emotional need to nurse at night, as well as a possible nutritional need.

For babies who won't eat during the day, like a PP said, sure, it's *possible* for them to get their calories during the day, but what if they're not into it?
post #23 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyMae09 View Post

For babies who won't eat during the day, like a PP said, sure, it's *possible* for them to get their calories during the day, but what if they're not into it?
Well that's when the mama needs to make a choice of what is more important.. helping her child to sleep at night and eat during the day so that she can also sleep at night, or continue to feed baby at night until they no longer wake to nurse. Even if her baby may not *want* to get all of her calories during the day, she is old enough to adjust to that if it is what the family needs.
post #24 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185 View Post
Well that's when the mama needs to make a choice of what is more important.. helping her child to sleep at night and eat during the day so that she can also sleep at night, or continue to feed baby at night until they no longer wake to nurse. Even if her baby may not *want* to get all of her calories during the day, she is old enough to adjust to that if it is what the family needs.
Exactly, and sometimes family needs trump babies needs. And babies at some point need to adjust to the family's needs. Sometimes it works to put babies needs way ahead of everyone elses - but if mom is in pain nursing b/c pf pregnancy and needs more sleep, then something has to give.
post #25 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyMae09 View Post
Um, if he's hungry, how does nursing him make it *not* any better?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but not feeding your baby when you know he is hungry is, um, not okay. Ever. Unless you meant he got actual food, not boob.
So its really great that you can devote your entire life to your baby and not sleep at night. I'm a single mama, full time law student, and I'm going to be taking the bar in February. I can't nurse my kid all night long anymore. Something had to give, and it was the night nursing. Until I stopped nursing him at night, he was going to continue to need those calories during the night - and a method like Jay Gordon would have been awful for us. It works for some nursing relationships, but not ours.

ETA - I would not have done it if my kid had sn or was FTT or something. He's not. He's tall and heavy for his age, so its not like he was going to starve to death in those 5 hours. jeez.
post #26 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by thyra View Post
So its really great that you can devote your entire life to your baby and not sleep at night. I'm a single mama, full time law student, and I'm going to be taking the bar in February. I can't nurse my kid all night long anymore. Something had to give, and it was the night nursing. Until I stopped nursing him at night, he was going to continue to need those calories during the night - and a method like Jay Gordon would have been awful for us. It works for some nursing relationships, but not ours.

ETA - I would not have done it if my kid had sn or was FTT or something. He's not. He's tall and heavy for his age, so its not like he was going to starve to death in those 5 hours. jeez.
Did you miss the part about me dealing with health issues AND planning my wedding while my DD was waking 8-12 times a night? I don't 'devote my entire life' to it; just enough time for DD to decide when it was right *for her* to eat less at night.

And like I said, it's not about 'starving to death' it about emotional needs. The OP's baby told her through signing and vocally, that she wasn't ready. What works for you or I isn't the issue. It's about the OP's baby.

And we are still the grownups. The baby is a BABY. They don't know why we're withholding the breast, they don't know why Mommy suddenly is denying them something they've never been denied before.

So, you know, making assumptions isn't cool, especially since I already stated (a couple different times) that I was going through a lot as well, and still choose my DD's wishes above my own. Because she is a BABY and she'll only BE a baby once.

Why do women think it's so hard to persevere with night nursing for just another month or two? You can always try to nightwean if still needed after a few more days/weeks/whatever. The OP, and everyone else, don't have to do it NOW, unless it truly is a 'keeping my sanity' issue, in which case, nightweaning may or may not help, depending on how much your child freaks out about the sudden withholding of something they've had free access to.

I've been there. I was to the point one night where I had to walk out of the room, leaving DD to scream with DH. But I went back, and fed her, because that's what she NEEDED, and once again, I'm the grown-up here. By the way, the night that happened was two days before our wedding.

I know being a single Mama is hard. I did it for 6 years. I know you are trying to do the best you can.
post #27 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by thyra View Post
Exactly, and sometimes family needs trump babies needs. And babies at some point need to adjust to the family's needs. Sometimes it works to put babies needs way ahead of everyone elses - but if mom is in pain nursing b/c pf pregnancy and needs more sleep, then something has to give.
So, the baby, the most vulnerable, least cognizant person in the family, has to do what works for the people who are adults or children whom are capable of reasoning, understanding, and empathy?

I don't buy it.

I was in pain because of nursing, and I needed more sleep. Some nights I thought I was going to lose my mind - but then I remembered, DD is just a baby. She doesn't know that what she is doing is causing me to lose sleep. She just knows that, for whatever reason, she needs Mommy milk right now. And I fed her.

And like I said, a mere few weeks later, she VOLUNTARILY went from 8-12 times a night to 2-4, tops.

I am not trying to make myself look good, and I am totally aware that I am a completely imperfect person (although always working towards being better!). In fact, I am so imperfect, that I would purport that if I can do it, pretty much any Mommy can
post #28 of 40
Quote:
So, the baby, the most vulnerable, least cognizant person in the family, has to do what works for the people who are adults or children whom are capable of reasoning, understanding, and empathy?
I agree with this, but we aren't talking about an infant here. Also, the OP and PP are not talking about leaving the baby/toddler to CIO. She is still comforting her DD, just looking for ways other than the breast, because nursing while pregnant can be excruciating (I know this from my experience) and her DD may learn to sleep better without nursing.
post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyMae09 View Post
So, the baby, the most vulnerable, least cognizant person in the family, has to do what works for the people who are adults or children whom are capable of reasoning, understanding, and empathy?
Yes, babies have to learn at some point that they are NOT the center of the universe. And, I didn't tell the OP to leave her 2day old, 16day old, 16week old - it is her 16MONTH old baby. At 16 months, my son understood every.single.thing. I said to him. Everything. Seriously.

And yeah, I get the whole babies needs above our own. I did it for 19months. After that, I needed to be able to sleep at night so that I could concentrate at school during the day. Why? B/c I need to be able to provide for family in a few months - and failing out of school in my last semester isn't an option.

I'm glad you are able to be imperfect and nurse all night long until your baby decides to stop - I couldn't do that.
post #30 of 40
OP, can your dh help? I nightweaned my ds when he was 15 mo old and I couldn't have done it if I was in the same room with me. He would scream and hit me if I refused to nurse him or I just wanted to cuddle with him. My dh was prepared to wake up with him, play with him, rock him to sleep or give him water when he woke up during the night, so I knew he was in good hands. Ds woke up a couple of times and then he started sleeping through the night.
I think it was better to have someone else do the nighttime parenting when nightweaning because ds couldn't understand why I wouldn't let him sleep at the breast when I was right there with him. Dh also noticed that I was making it worse when I attempted to "rescue" him the first night.

Good luck OP
post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185 View Post
I agree with this, but we aren't talking about an infant here.
That's true - but just because she's not an infant doesn't mean that her feelings about not getting breast should be ignored.

And my DD understands me quite well, also. However, since children below a particular age have no idea what 'waiting until morning' means, for them, you might as well be taking away the breast for the rest of their life for all they know. Children below the age of about 3 have no concept of time on a large scale.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad; if you don't believe me, just look up developmental stages.
post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by thyra View Post
And yeah, I get the whole babies needs above our own. I did it for 19months. After that, I needed to be able to sleep at night so that I could concentrate at school during the day. Why? B/c I need to be able to provide for family in a few months - and failing out of school in my last semester isn't an option.
I know you made the best decision that you could at the time

One thing that has often made me feel better about past decisions that I've been unable to avoid making but would rather not have (it sounds to me like you wish you'd been able to continue to night-nurse as needed - if I'm wrong please forgive the error) is the saying by Maya Angelou - "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better."

I'm not saying any choice in your case was right or wrong, I'm only saying that this quote has helped me.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now

Hugs to all of you dealing with nightweaning, I know how hard it can be
post #33 of 40
Thread Starter 
OP here! I just wanted to come on and thank everyone who offered supportive advice about nightweaning. And hi, Beauchamp! How's your little one??

BabyMae, I'm sure that you didn't intend to be offensive with your posts, and I know that you're just trying to be warm and supportive, but I found some of your statements a bit judgmental. I really do appreciate and understand your desire to encourage continuing to night-nurse because it's in the best interest of the child. But, if it's not in the best interest of anyone else, at some point we need to make a change. And this really is ok. I was hoping not to have to come in here and defend my decision to night-wean, and I don't actually feel that it's a decision that needs to be defended, but I will explain a bit more, though I feel that others have done a good job of explaining some of the legitimate reasons to night-wean.

With this pregnancy night-nursing on DD's schedule (i.e., endlessly) simply is not an option any longer -- it's far too painful, and if I'm too sore from nursing all night, it's very difficult to continue to nurse during the day. And I don't want to wean her altogether, so nightweaning seems an acceptable compromise. Of course she isn't happy about it; what toddler is happy about being refused anything??? She complains far more when I refuse to let her eat the toothpaste than she does when I tell her she has to stop nursing and go to sleep.

In short, it is in the best interest of EVERYONE, including DD, that we find a way to stop nursing at night. She deserves our gentle help in learning how to sleep better at night before her new sibling arrives and replaces her as the primary boob-monster. And, it's especially in the best interest of the new baby, who deserves to be growing inside a mama who's not exhausted and stressed every minute of the day.

As far as our progress with nightweaning goes... it's been on-and-off. We had to stop for a few days because DD got a fever and I wanted to be sure she got extra milk while she was sick. But now we're back on the program and it's going much better. We're down to only 3 wakings a night (I think we were at about 7 before!) and only one of those seems to be problematic with her wanting to nurse endlessly. The other times she seems to do ok with being given a pacifier and being cuddled back to sleep.

The only waking we're really having trouble with is about 2 am. I nurse her for a few minutes, then take her off gently and say, "ok, time to sleep now," and she goes ballistic. I've been dealing with it by taking her out of bed and into her room, and rocking in the rocking chair for a couple of minutes, then I offer her a few sips of water, then she seems ready to sleep again without nursing herself to sleep. I'm going to sloooowly try to eliminate this feeding altogether, since it's the most difficult for both of us. The water helps a lot.

I do so wish we could get DH more involved at night, like several of you suggested, but every time we've tried it has been a disaster. She refuses to go to him at all at night -- and if he tries to hold her and soothe her she ramps it up until she's seriously hysterical. It think, even with all the tears, she does better with "Mama's right here, Mama loves you, you can have milk in the morning" than she ever would with "Mama's not here, go to sleep."

I was about to try moving all her nursing to the rocking chair, to break the association with nursing in bed, but I decided against it after reading MamaLaura's post. Welcome to MDC, by the way!!! And thanks for your post!!! I realized that my DD would definitely do exactly what your DS does -- wake up, go to the door and demand to be taken to the nursing chair. It's just the sort of thing she would do. So I scrapped that idea. Thanks for the timely advice and for sharing your experience.

We'll keep at it over here! Slowly but surely, we're going to help this child (and her exhausted, sick pregnant mama) sleep better at night.
post #34 of 40
Sounds like you're on the path toward full nightweaning. Good luck with that and with the rest of your pregnancy!
post #35 of 40
Comtessa, I think you are doing great.

I think it is a good example to your kids to seek compromise in order to try to meet everyone's needs. It's not easy to listen to your child cry when you know you have a solution for that moment but not for the days ahead, and it's not easy to set a limit sometimes.

And we don't live in some mythical paradise of imaginary primitives. "It takes a village" ... yeah, it takes a village to nurse a kid too.

Guess what, if we lived in my grandmother's village, I would be handing my kid off to my mom to nurse and she can deal with the weaning when my daughter is 5, not me. But I don't live in that world (and thank god I don't, I like being able to read, divorce, and disobey my elders), so it's all me nursing, all the time. It's okay to set limits so you can be healthy. It makes you a good mom.

I did hear some biologist state that when mom gets the urge to stop nursing, feels agitated, etc, that is a good biological cue toward weaning. Maybe it's not studied science, but it sounds like sense to me.

*

I've been trying to keep in mind that "everything is a phase" with these babes. We had a minute where we had gotten DD15mo into a crib and that seemed to be working... then not...

What has finally helped has DD's father began a bedtime routine with her a few months ago, and they stick to it like it is god's commandment.

The first few nights she cried for me to nurse her but they stuck it out together. I knew she had eaten a good dinner, and nursed before they went in together, so it was just her crying for her sleep association. Things began to get easier after a week or so. Now she sleeps better for him than for me, I am sure because he is more consistent in their routine, whereas many times I just felt so awful to hear her crying. So I stopped putting her to bed altogether.

After bath, book, and snuggles with him, she will literally lay down in bed for him and go right to sleep in less than 10 minutes. Not so for nap times (when it's just me). Or if I sleep in the room. Then she wakes up and screams at me, signing "milk" frantically until I nurse her.

Well, we live in a 1 brdm and I don't want to sleep apart from my family. So we are experimenting with me integrating back into the bedtime routine so she can be used to falling asleep snuggling with me without nursing. Tonight I came in and nursed her, then told her "all done." And she popped off and rolled over and went to sleep. I want to try nursing with the lights on then lights out, then she goes to sleep to break the connection even more.

We will see what happens when I go in tonight for the big sleep. It seems like routine is the key. We'll try our new routine every day for the next two weeks and see what happens then.

*

The other thing that I try to remember (but usually forget) is that she is crying for help to fall asleep. Not the exact thing necessarily that she think she wants. Just help to learn how to go to sleep. That struck me from you post, Comtessa, that you are trying to help your daughter fall asleep too. If I can feel like we are working toward a common goal (peaceful sleep), rather than I am denying her the thing that she wants, it seems much easier to know how to proceed.
post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyMae09 View Post
I know you made the best decision that you could at the time

One thing that has often made me feel better about past decisions that I've been unable to avoid making but would rather not have (it sounds to me like you wish you'd been able to continue to night-nurse as needed - if I'm wrong please forgive the error) is the saying by Maya Angelou - "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better."

I'm not saying any choice in your case was right or wrong, I'm only saying that this quote has helped me.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now

Hugs to all of you dealing with nightweaning, I know how hard it can be
I'm actually REALLY GLAD I've stopped night nursing (for the most part - if he wakes up once and is hungry b/c he didn't eat anything b/c of teething I'll nurse him ONCE). I don't regret night weaning at all - it has saved my sanity in SO MANY WAYS I can't even articulate them.
post #37 of 40
I'm really glad that I found this thread. I read through every single post and still have some thoughts and questions...

So, do any of you moms work full time out of the home AND continue to night-nurse 6-10x each night? (Please don't misinterpret - I wish I could be at home, but I can't right now.) DD - almost 13mo - is now waking 4-6-8 times each night. I am at the point that depression has set in because I have been unable to reach REM sleep in nearly a year and half (end of pregnancy had me running to the bathroom 3-4 times each night). DH and I are both completely exhausted - physically and mentally. At the end of it all, I still have to get up at 5 to get ready for the day.

Some of the ladies are right on with my thinking. Something's gotta give.

So where do you start? Yes, 12/13 mos is young but I have to function... I also cannot jepardize our family's life by loosing my job. And, really, being able to think clearly in the moment at 1, 2:30, or 4 is not my strong suit so I have reservations about starting the recommendations by Dr. Gordon or the NCSS method...
post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama_of_1 View Post
I'm really glad that I found this thread. I read through every single post and still have some thoughts and questions...

So, do any of you moms work full time out of the home AND continue to night-nurse 6-10x each night? (Please don't misinterpret - I wish I could be at home, but I can't right now.) DD - almost 13mo - is now waking 4-6-8 times each night. I am at the point that depression has set in because I have been unable to reach REM sleep in nearly a year and half (end of pregnancy had me running to the bathroom 3-4 times each night). DH and I are both completely exhausted - physically and mentally. At the end of it all, I still have to get up at 5 to get ready for the day.

Some of the ladies are right on with my thinking. Something's gotta give.

So where do you start? Yes, 12/13 mos is young but I have to function... I also cannot jepardize our family's life by loosing my job. And, really, being able to think clearly in the moment at 1, 2:30, or 4 is not my strong suit so I have reservations about starting the recommendations by Dr. Gordon or the NCSS method...
It's hard to be a working mom isn't it? I'm not working, but I'm a full time student, and I'm a single mom - so I know where you're coming from.

At 12/13mo, is your dd still mostly BF'ing? How much does she eat in the way of solids? I don't know that I would encourage nightweaning per say, but you might try giving her foods at night time that have a high fat/protein content. Peanut butter is one of my son's fave's - he also loves almond butter, soynut butter, etc and a PB&J at dinner helps him sleep longer.

Nightweaning will be much harder if her solids intake isn't that great, b/c she needs those calories - and I really think the trick to nightweaning is making sure that the caloric intake is enough during the day to sustain them all night.

I hear you though that something has to give! Good luck! Don't feel guilty either - when mama has to work to feed everyone, mama also needs her sleep and sanity!
post #39 of 40
Oh yes, food is generally not a problem for K! haha She's an EATER and not shy about it. We've started the peanut butter on whole wheat bread and she seems to like it. Can't do a whole lot more than easy-mush items since she doesn't have any molars yet.

I know it's probably selective memory with them spaced so far apart, but I swear that DS only woke once or twice (at most) by this time and he was on roughly the same intake schedule. Granted, with him, I was still home at this age...

Oh, babies, babies, babies... LOL
post #40 of 40
I'm reading this thread with interest as I'm considering when/how to nightwean my soon-to-be-2-year-old.

And I work full-time outside the home, so Mama of 1, I'm right there with you on how hard it is. Sleep deprivation made me crazy during DD's first year. I mean crazy. My basic standard at work was that I tried to get through each day without 1) crying, 2) telling someone to F*** off or 3) falling asleep at my desk. The fact that I got any actual work done seems like a miracle, looking back.

Things have been getting better, and now I'm at a point where I'm thinking about weaning, perhaps starting with night weaning. I'm torn because my DD clearly still loves to nurse and I like it as a way to reconnect and be close to her after being at work all day. Also, we've totally trained her to nurse to sleep, and almost nothing else works. (If I'm away from the house, my partner can get her down, but only by taking her out for a drive or watching re-runs of The Waltons for hours). On the other hand, I'm pretty tired of having enormous boobs. And DD is old enough now that we have lots of great things in our relationship...it's not just "all about nursing" like it was at first.

But because I'm ambivalent about making a change, nothing is changing. So I'm just observing how things evolve, which they continue to do.

There was a change in my DD's sleep patterns around 18 months, and it definitely had more to do with her development than with anything I was doing. She started sleeping for longer stretches, and now it's typical for her to wake up only twice during the night. Most nights I can get her back to sleep within 5-10 minutes with a little nursing. So it's pretty manageable.

New things that we're playing around with:
FOOD: We have definitely noticed that DD sleeps better when she eats more during the day. And we have to work hard to get her to eat. We've started putting whey powder in her yogurt to boost her protein intake. And we've discovered that we can prolong meal time by continuing to feed her bits of food by following her around and putting it in her mouth. Perhaps that crazy, but it's working, so we're doing it.

SINGING: I sing the ABC song and when it's done, she has to stop nursing. For some reason, she totally accepts this. Sometimes I can say "all done nursing" and that does the trick, too, but the singing really works.

STUFFED ANIMAL: The other night she begged for her blue baby bear at 5:45 am. So I found it for her, and then we nursed for 5 min, and she was still totally awake, but I told her that mama and baby bear were going to sleep, and she put herself to sleep. It was amazing.

There are plenty of days when I've kicked myself for not doing CIO ages ago. And there are also plenty of days when I realize that the road I'm taking is perfect for our family, even though it's very imperfect, if that makes any sense. I'm starting to trust that my DD will some day go to sleep on her own and my breasts won't be involved. And I'm pretty sure it will happen before she's 7.
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