Love and Logic Parenting - long term results?

[spargel]

Tried searching, but came up with nothing. I'm pregnant with my first child. I had horrible parenting role models and I don't want to be a spanker, yeller, etc.

This morning I went to an intro to Parenting with Love and Logic seminar. Now that I've done the intro, I can do the next 7 sessions and it's all free. I have to say that I loved what I was hearing. It all seemed very positive and I really liked what they said about the child learning responsibility by being allowed to make mistakes and dealing with the consequences of their actions/decisions.

If you're familiar with this, can you comment. Is it too good to be true? Is there a hidden flaw I'm not seeing? Will it really help me and my child have a good relationship rather than one continually based on conflict and power struggles? Has anyone really done this for a number of years and what positives or negatives have you seen come out of this method?

I'm really excited about the next class. It seems like it will be a perfect mesh with my personality and will help me avoid the mistakes that happened/are happening in my family.

Thanks!

[Polliwog]

I really dislike the Love and Logic series of books. I find it's really controlling. The workshops might be different so I'd read one or two of the books.

[PoppyMama]

I wouldn't say it's gentle discipline but I found it helpful. I was a single mom and a lot of the things people do in GD weren't workable for me. Love and Logic allowed for a more peaceful, happy house. It is also helpful for children with various issues.

[PoppyMama]

I should add that how respectful this parenting method is is largely determined by how respectful you are to your children. The phrases can come out a lot different based on tone and your respect levels.

[MrsH]

It's been a while since I read this book and we are not fully implementing all of it. We're landing on more of a blend of parenting that includes Simplicity Parenting, Playful Parenting, Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline, Dr. Sears' Discipline book, and even a bit of 123 Magic (except the whole "don't talk to your kids about what happened" part).

Things I remember liking about Love & Logic is the idea of natural and logical consequences. Rather than fighting my kids on winter coats, I allow them to get a bit cold. When my eldest feigned an acute tummy ache for several hours, I did call the doctor and followed her advice to go to the ER, even when the tummy ache magically disappeared during the ride over there. If they can't get out of bed in the morning, we tuck them in earlier the next night. Things such as that. Time-outs are (in my mind) a logical consequence to being out of control and harmful. I can't remember what L&L says about them.

Things I didn't like are the "uh-oh song" and the application of logic to just about every situation. I'm specifically thinking here about emotional outbursts and temper tantrums. I find it more helpful to think of those as ways of communicating that need to be improved rather than as ways to manipulate me. It also doesn't allow room for kindness. After reading the book, I refused my daughter's request to bring her homework folder to school (natural consequence: trouble w/ teacher). However, when I told my husband he pointed out to me that that's a basic kindness we would have done for one another, why not for our kids? I'll say it'd be different if she consistently forgot her folder, but it was just the one time. He said "it seems a little low on the love part."

All that to say that there were certainly useful tools and concepts but that we chose to not apply it across the board because their general approach seemed to have a somewhat negative view of childrens' motivation.

Good luck as you start your parenting journey! Just remember that you can always adjust course and increase your tools, fine-tune your philosophy, etc. If this class seems really helpful now then take it and enjoy it! And remember that these things aren't all or nothing. You take what fits and leave the rest.

[Becky:)]

I really like L&L. I have only read 1 book, the one for early childhood. I think its definitely positive discipline. I admit that I don't use *all* of the techniques, but I did take away a lot of wonderful tools from that book. I actually like the Uh-oh song for my 22 month old. I don't use it on my 4 year old. I don't use the phrases "how sad" or "what a bummer" because it just doesn't fit with the way I normally speak to my kids and felt contrived, but I like their approach on natural/logical consequences.

I've also read 1-2-3 Magic and I liked some of it, and some of it not so much, but I find that counting does stop negative behavior in my 4 year old. At 3, he goes (or went) to "rest time" which was simply time in his room where he could play or do whatever to calm down and come out when he was feeling calmer and ready to be respectful. I never get to 3 now. I don't particularly *like* counting, but hey, it works.

I'm reading Playful Parenting now (just a few pages in) and I hear great things about this too. I just take bits that I look from each book and apply them to my parenting. I don't really follow any one particular style, but right now, hands down, Love and Logic was the most helpful to me.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by MrsH

It also doesn't allow room for kindness. After reading the book, I refused my daughter's request to bring her homework folder to school (natural consequence: trouble w/ teacher). However, when I told my husband he pointed out to me that that's a basic kindness we would have done for one another, why not for our kids? I'll say it'd be different if she consistently forgot her folder, but it was just the one time. He said "it seems a little low on the love part."

Yeah. That's my issue with it. Having a basically grown daughter, I'm very glad that I didn't sit back and allow her to experience negative consequences to her actions that I was perfectly able to prevent... for many reasons, one of which is that she now treats me the same way.

It's really nice to have a teen who comes out to the car with my hot cup of coffee saying, "Here, you forgot this," even though I've done the same thing before. I am trying to imagine arriving at school and realizing that I'd left it behind, and having her say, "Yeah, that really sucks for you. I saw it on the kitchen table but figured that not having coffee this morning was the natural consequence of your forgetfulness and poor planning, so I didn't say anything." That's not the kind of relationship I want to have with my kid...

[NellieKatz]

That is SUCH a good point, Dar. And I also like the PP whose DH said "it's a little low on the love part." Very important stuff. :-)

[LynnS6]

I think it's a decent introduction for someone who's had 'horrible' parenting role models. One of its good points is that it does demonstrate that it is possible to parent effectively without spanking. But as others have pointed out, it tends to be a bit heavy on logic and light on love at times. My husband's reaction after we took a Love and Logic class was "I think it's too much logic and not enough love." So funny that someone else's husband had the same reaction .

I remember one example given in class (maybe it was on the videos they showed?) where the child dumped their oatmeal on the floor and the parent sang the 'uh-oh' song while taking them for a timeout. I was puzzled as to why a timeout would be the best reaction to that. My child would be helping me clean up the oatmeal, and then we'd be done. In our house, timeouts are reserved for when you're out of control (physically or verbally) and need a separation to break the cycle. Even mom and dad take timeouts now and then (and sometimes from each other). Maybe when I'm really grown up I'll learn to take my timeouts without slamming the door .

So, even though it's not my favorite approach, I did take a few good points away from it. For that reason, I think attending the class would be good. Moreover, taking the Love and Logic class gave my husband and me time to talk about how we want to approach things. It's a decent beginning for those who only know spanking and yelling as a parenting tool.

[spargel]

Wow! Thanks to all for the outstanding input and responses - that's exactly what I was looking for! It looks like there are some great resources for other parenting styles that I can integrate or use completely in place of L&L where I think it's necessary. I definitely agree about the times when a little kindness/love would be a better lesson than natural consequences - because I think they that learn a lot from both. I do have to admit that I really have a bad impression of the 123 method. It grates on my nerves when I hear parents counting, but since I haven't read through it - I need to learn more. Thanks again, I have a lot to think about as I move into my first real L&L class today!

[RoViMama]

I am a fan of L & L. I think taking a class is better than starting with one of the books. But def pay attention to your kiddoes personality as well. It worked with ODD but not so much with YDD. I do say "Oh man" . It is is great signal to her that something happened and an chance for me to remain calm. I love the choices. I am wanting to take a refresher enforceable statement class but who has the time. But there are things that I use in my way. It's not our only method/model but it is on the bag of tricks.

[megababymomma]

I don't know much about it, but in general it's hard to master any technique or style as well as the creators do. All children are different, all parents are different, all child/parent relationships are different... and no style takes into account that you may not be on your game all the time, we all make mistakes. Whatever you choose, do your best, take it easy on yourself and reevaluate often to make sure what you're doing really works for your family.

[harrietsmama]

L&L always makes me feel yucky, it's so fake. The 'logic' seems logical, but to me it's punishment wrapped in a pretty package.

I had a horrifically scary upbringing too, and I have had a long rough road of finding peace with my parenting. I never hurt them physically, but yelling was an issue it took me a long time to get on top of.

In my journey, my favorite resource has been The Daily Groove from Scott Noelle. It's a daily email that is a simple paragraph and it helps me keep my patience, even when I'm dealing with power struggles between my partner and my son and they can be intense!

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

[Elismum]

I've been reading the L&L intro book (only 20 or so pages in) and was also wondering about the method in use. Some of the examples in the book are really over the top for me, e.g., giving away the family dog without warning because the child wasn't taking proper care of it. Some of the examples/techniques just seem mean-spirited. But I have been incorporating the "choices" technique into my 2.5 y.o.'s world - like do you want to brush your teeth in this bathroom or the one downstairs - and it seems to be working fairly well.
I appreciate all the throughtful input here and referecences to other styles. I, too, could use some additional tools for the bag!

[nextcommercial]

I only have the "Raising teens love and logic" book, and I personally think it's one of the best parenting books I have ever read.

But, it (the teens book) is all about personal responsibility. It teaches the parent to say "How are you going to deal with that?" instead of doing it for them.

I am a strong believer in personal responsibility, and owning your problems or mistakes. So, this book is exactly what I needed. It's not going to be for everyone.

I have NOT read any of the Love and logic books for younger kids. So, I can't say if the entire series is good.

[jeffsdear]

I had a horrific upbringing and desperately needed guidance as a young parent back when my now 19 DD was a toddler. I found L&L to be extremely helpful, since she was very strong-willed. It took out the fight. When she was 2, when I zipped up her coat, she would rip it off and throw it on the floor. So it really helped to say "Are you going to wear your coat or carry it today?" And it took her a WEEK of being cold in the car before she started wanting to wear her coat. (She had to figure out that I really was letting her decide I guess). I don't use everything they suggest. But what I really like about it is that it gives kids the opportunity to take responsibility for their choices. I always asked even the very little ones, do you want green or blue socks, for example. I prefer to give them choices rather than let them pick from an infinite number of choices... So, it is a little controlling in that way - I'm controlling the parameters from which they can make choices. But they make choices all day long, and we hardly fight about stuff.

Oh, and my 19 yo DD - she is very responsible now. She makes her decisions, and lives with the consequences gracefully.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by jeffsdear

I had a horrific upbringing and desperately needed guidance as a young parent back when my now 19 DD was a toddler. I found L&L to be extremely helpful, since she was very strong-willed. It took out the fight. When she was 2, when I zipped up her coat, she would rip it off and throw it on the floor. So it really helped to say "Are you going to wear your coat or carry it today?" And it took her a WEEK of being cold in the car before she started wanting to wear her coat. (She had to figure out that I really was letting her decide I guess). I don't use everything they suggest. But what I really like about it is that it gives kids the opportunity to take responsibility for their choices. I always asked even the very little ones, do you want green or blue socks, for example. I prefer to give them choices rather than let them pick from an infinite number of choices... So, it is a little controlling in that way - I'm controlling the parameters from which they can make choices. But they make choices all day long, and we hardly fight about stuff.

Oh, and my 19 yo DD - she is very responsible now. She makes her decisions, and lives with the consequences gracefully.

Same, same for me with my 4.5 yr old; I started this when he was very young and it works well for us though we tend to use more love than logic.

[swimming-duck]

I think there are some good tools in the program. I think a lot of it depends on how it's implemented. I was in a Sunday school class with othe parents and we were going through this book and watching videos. I think the thing that struck me is some of the parents had a "this will really stick it to them...haha" kind of attitude. And I think if that attitude is behind the implementation it would come across as vicious and mean-spirited. I have other resources that I really like that seem much more loving and gentle.

The No-Cry Discipline Solution is a great one. Also, The Happiest Toddler on the Block - that one I think has a few more elements of control, but it's a really really great resource on learning how to connect with your tantruming child.

I wish you luck. I too was spanked and yelled at a lot as a child. I think reading through lots of resources and having as many tools as possible is extremely helpful when working towards breaking the cycle.

[xelakann]

Re: the oatmeal on the floor example in L and L... the mom said that if had been an accident she just would have hugged him and cleaned up the mess, but that the boy had started throwing his food on the floor that week so she knew it wasn't an accident.

I am 3/4 way through the book so it is really fresh with me. As for the book being short of "love" I think it is what you put into it. There is a lot of LOVE in our house but there were lots of battles with my almost three year old. In the week we've been doing this things have been so peaceful.

I have no longer stories, but I am really liking it now.

Oh and I have read Happiest Toddler on the Block so I do use elements of that still because some of the methods are really effective on my son.

[SpottedFoxx]

Most (not all) parenting books have some great ideas but I have yet to find one "method" that is the end all be all of parenting. As a PP said, you take a little from this one, a little from that one, you talk to other parents and viola! you have your parenting style.