A very uncomfortable question... - Page 3

[Anglyn]

Originally Posted by meemee

this makes me really sad reading this. that fear has gotten into us so strong that if your parents do something that our children want them to stop you start thinking otherwise.

here are two issues here. relationship with dd. and relationship with dad. i would not want ANYTHING to happen to my relationship with my dad. also after so many years i dont know my dad?

i wonder then how many would feel this way with their own dh.

both the relationships are precious to me.

i really dislike what this culture is doing to us.

there are times when our conscience speaks to us, but there are times when fear makes us think its our gut/conscience talking.

fishmom this really wasnt directed at 'you'. but in general at society. you have said that your dad is a simpleton and if he has hearing problem and not wearing hearing aid he might not be able to hear dd. plus if you talk to your cousin there is a potential to mess up that relationship. so its imperative that you look deep within you and see why you feel strange. fear or something is off.

what i see from this situation, is not so much what's up with your dad - but more as how do i get dd to speak up and stand for her own rights.

my dd is a new 8. she has the courage to stand up and speak for herself to her dad. to get him to listen to her and allow her to do her stuff. doesnt mean he listens but she is slowly starting to speak up.

there are things i do with dd that rubs people the wrong way. many mamas here too have expressed they dont feel comfortable with me doing that. while others felt it was ok. only you can figure out the truth. we can all share our opinions.

I agree. I struggle with this with my kids. We lost a set of really good friends because she feels that my kids were inappropriate with hers. The irony? After swimming and baths, I wanted them to get dressed and SHE was the one who said it's ok, so their naked? But one game of being puppy dogs later, her three yr old said my four yr old told her to sniff his butt (which dogs do, and my kids really get into their make believe, they'd wear collars and leashes if we'd let them) and suddenly my child molested hers.

But I really struggled with it, because in our culture, we don't KNOW what's normal. ANY expression of sexuality from a child is cause for alarm. Even expression that AREN'T sexual are seen that way.

I really struggled with how to teach him what's not socially appropriate without making him think their was something wrong with him for what he did.

[NightOwlwithowlet]

OP, I think you are doing a great job giving your daughter a voice and teaching her to say "No" is a wonderful gift. If it weirds out you or your daughter, then it's not okay.

I was abused by a family member as a child. I adore my mom and respect my dad, but as a parent I'm appalled at how causal they were with our safety and well being. My mom did listen to her gut and stopped the person who was "bullying" me, but to this day (40 years and other victims late) she still can't call it abuse.

I prefer to err on the side of being over cautious when it comes to my son. If something happens to him, I can't take it back and I can't give him his childhood back.

[mamazee]

I think we all read this through the filters of our experience. My dad is a hard core alcoholic, and the alcohol has been affecting his brain and has been causing a lot of very strange behavior over the past few years. He never sexually abused me, and I would not think the dad I grew up with would do that, but I don't know about my dad at the moment. He has been behaving in very odd ways and I would not know what to think. I think of foot massages as being intimate and romantic. Add that to my uncertainty with my own dad, and I see grooming. But I agree with those who say that his motivation isn't really the big issue here. Him not stopping when she says no is the issue.

[AmaraMonillas]

Originally Posted by fishmom

Is it normal for daughters to distance themselves like I did or do you all think it's a result of abuse or some other disfunction?

I think some distancing is normal. Personally I am on the other end of the spectrum. I still, at 23 and married, sit on my dad's lap. I grew up sheltered in some ways and I think I didn't pick up on a lot of our societies over-sexualization of adolescent girls. So I just wasn't self conscious about affection and have continued in our families cuddly ways I guess inappropriate/forced sexual behavior has always been so foreign and hard for me to fathom it is hard for me to associate it in any way with cuddling up to my dad.

[lilmom]

Just wanted to say what so many others have already said. Teaching her NO is a precious gift to her.

Listen to those instincts Mama! They are there to protect us.

What I see as worrisome is more your fear that you might be overreacting to the situation. You're not. Your daughter has said NO and he is still doing it. End of story. Grooming or no grooming, although personally, my first thought would be grooming. But that's not the point.

The point is, teach her to be a STRONG person who does not allow others to invade her space when it's unwanted! She needs to feel that she has control over her own body.

Also, Protecting the Gift is a hard read but it was also one of the best books I've read about parenting. It really hits the message home that we have got to listen, listen, listen to our instincts.

It doesn't matter if you were abused or not, or if he abused anyone else or not, or whether you are distant from your dad, or don't care much for physical affection..none of that matters when PROTECTING YOUR CHILD or yourself is the issue. Don't second guess your natural, IMO, God-given instinct to take care of your daughter. Don't let them be alone together, and make sure he understands no means no.

Good job wonderful mama bear!

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by lilmom

Also, Protecting the Gift is a hard read but it was also one of the best books I've read about parenting. It really hits the message home that we have got to listen, listen, listen to our instincts.

It also says to make sure that we give our kids lots of real world practice so they know the difference between baseless fear and real/valuable fear.

I feel like a lot of people reference that book without encompassing the whole picture. While deBecker DOES advice tough caution, he also speaks bluntly about how teaching our kids to be afraid of everything, or giving in to global fear is just as damaging as them having to put up with anything to be polite.

It's a really fine line. Listen to our instincts, yes. BUT ALSO we MUST understand where those instincts *come from*. It's always best to err on the side of caution. However, some of us are handicapped by some really twisted instincts (I speak for myself here, NOT the OP). In order for us to really protect our children, we need to learn how to separate our internal experience-driven personal anxiety from real instinct.

Look, there are people who will not allow their daughters to be alone with any men (including fathers and brothers) because they fear that any man left alone with their kid will molest them. That is total instinct for them and no one will convince them otherwise. Is that healthy? I don't believe so. Is that global fear that every man IS a rapist something that may very well drown out true instinct and place the child in the long run in even more danger? Yes, I believe it is. I have someone dear to me who is very strongly and uncontrollably "instinctively" fearful of men of a certain race because of her family upbringing--she has learned to set some of that aside but it's probably not ever going to go away. Yet she knows that some of that is not true "danger sense" and is more programming. Before she did the very courageous and hard thing of working some of that out she was in double danger--both because she would never recognize members of that group who WERE safe and could help her in other situations and because her guilt at knowing that some part of that was not "god given" led her to second guess real feelings of danger. Gut feelings and instincts can be innate, they can be danger sense, they can be programmed and learned. It's more complex than "always go with your gut." Certainly you can act cautiously and err on the safe side--but I think we do ourselves and our kids a disservice if we stop there and never examine and more importantly never talk our (esp. older) kids through that process.

That's why I think it is important as parents, especially those of us who deal with trauma issues (or frankly, even those who have not!) need to both honor our fear, to not be afraid of our fear--which includes not being afraid to look at the source and evaluate even as we exercise caution with our children.

[cappuccinosmom]

He never abused me or anyone that I know of, but he does this to her even if she tells him to stop. She doesn't like him to take her socks off, but he does anyway and says it's better that way.

I wouldn't jump to molestation. He may not have a "filter" that would tell him this could worry someone, either because of his generation, or because it's common for people to lose that social filter as they get older.

However, the part I bolded would make me very upset. I would not leave my children with a person who behaved in this way, even if I knew without a doubt that the problem was not a sexual one. I have had to remind a relative of certain things we do to help our children protect themselves. This relative has *no* bad intentions, but lacks the ability to read social cues sometimes. We and the children love this person, and it's painful to have to play the heavy and insist our rules be followed, but it's important. I want our children to see that we will defend them, and their right not to be pressured into interactions they are not comfortable with.

[AmaraMonillas]

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

It also says to make sure that we give our kids lots of real world practice so they know the difference between baseless fear and real/valuable fear.

I feel like a lot of people reference that book without encompassing the whole picture. While deBecker DOES advice tough caution, he also speaks bluntly about how teaching our kids to be afraid of everything, or giving in to global fear is just as damaging as them having to put up with anything to be polite.

It's a really fine line. Listen to our instincts, yes. BUT ALSO we MUST understand where those instincts *come from*. It's always best to err on the side of caution. However, some of us are handicapped by some really twisted instincts (I speak for myself here, NOT the OP). In order for us to really protect our children, we need to learn how to separate our internal experience-driven personal anxiety from real instinct.

Look, there are people who will not allow their daughters to be alone with any men (including fathers and brothers) because they fear that any man left alone with their kid will molest them. That is total instinct for them and no one will convince them otherwise. Is that healthy? I don't believe so. Is that global fear that every man IS a rapist something that may very well drown out true instinct and place the child in the long run in even more danger? Yes, I believe it is. I have someone dear to me who is very strongly and uncontrollably "instinctively" fearful of men of a certain race because of her family upbringing--she has learned to set some of that aside but it's probably not ever going to go away. Yet she knows that some of that is not true "danger sense" and is more programming. Before she did the very courageous and hard thing of working some of that out she was in double danger--both because she would never recognize members of that group who WERE safe and could help her in other situations and because her guilt at knowing that some part of that was not "god given" led her to second guess real feelings of danger. Gut feelings and instincts can be innate, they can be danger sense, they can be programmed and learned. It's more complex than "always go with your gut." Certainly you can act cautiously and err on the safe side--but I think we do ourselves and our kids a disservice if we stop there and never examine and more importantly never talk our (esp. older) kids through that process.

That's why I think it is important as parents, especially those of us who deal with trauma issues (or frankly, even those who have not!) need to both honor our fear, to not be afraid of our fear--which includes not being afraid to look at the source and evaluate even as we exercise caution with our children.

Thank you, this is very well articulated.

[dziwozony]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

No means no. Your dad's motives really don't matter here. If it happens again, I would step in immediately and put a stop to it, forcefully and firmly. There's no reason to plant any ideas in your DD's head, but definitely reinforce the idea that her body belongs to her and that she, and she alone, gets to decide who touches her, and where, and when.

I am really big on this!! Your dad might have completely innocent intentions, but if a child tells an adult to stop touching their body, this needs to be respected!!

It's really common for kids who don't want to give a hug to a relative to be forced into it, either through guilting them ("oh come on, you love them don't you? Go give them a hug...") or by the adult pretending to cry or be sad or some other weird game to pressure the child into giving a hug. It bugs the hell out of me!

My 3 year old has a friend (also 3) who gets really funny about interacting sometimes. He'll want to come up to her & give her a cuddle or play a ticking game or give her some kind of gentle touch & she'll snap a grumpy "NO!" I pull him aside & tell him that was really nice what he was trying to do, but no matter what it is your offering, if someone says no you have to listen because they get to make choices about their own body. Then I of course shower him with hugs & kisses :-)

But really, it's a very straight forward, simply concept & it would be awesome if everyone coule follow it!

[shanniesue2]

Originally Posted by JudiAU

If other people are around, I don't think anything is wrong with it. My grandfather used to give everyone awesome food massages.

I disagree. See, my dad gives awesome foot rubs.... and I don't really think there is anything wrong with foot rubs. I LOVE getting food rubs. But the OPs daughter obviously doesn't. Some people just don't (my DH hates any kind of massage). And the problem with OPs situation is that her dad isn't stopping when the DD says stop. He even takes it a step further by insisting on taking her socks off.

Now, I don't think that this necessarily means that OPs dad is doing anything sinister. But I do think it means that it's time to teach some boundary lessons to OPs DD and to her dad. DD needs to learn that she gets to set the boundaries for her body and that it's okay to insist that other people respect them. And OP's dad needs to learn that other people have a right to decide how and when they want to be touched. There doesn't have to be anything even remotely sexual about those lessons.

FWIW, I'm working on them with my 2.5 year old son right now. If he says he doesn't want hugs or kisses, then we respect that. It doesn't mean that when we want to give him a hug or kiss that there is anything sexually abusive about it... just like when OPs dad wants to give a foot rub, there probably isn't anything going on. But that doesn't mean that DS has to allow us to hug him every time we offer. Or that OPs DS has to let her grandfather give her a foot rub if she doesn't want one.

[hildare]

just wanted to throw another thought into the pot for you guys...
i was abused as a child by a family member. That family member was NOT my father. My da and I did, however, experience a very similar dynamic to what you describe (distancing after puberty & post abuse by another..).
I've thought about it a lot.. my conclusion for my particular situation is this:
my father was from a generation where this was typical behavior (distance) first of all.. and secondly, though he did not cause the abuse, nor did he even know about it (though my mother did) I blamed him, either subconsciously or even in an overt way for not stopping it. For not protecting me.
As you're trying to process your relationship with your own father, that might be a key to that puzzle if your situation was similar to mine in any way.
I already posted on page one basically that no means no and it should be reinforced. There's no way to tell, but I have a hunch that your dad just is clueless and you're imposing your own frame of reference in the situation. I find myself doing that a lot, based on past experiences that are hard to escape from. Either way, reinforcing your child's ability to refuse and speak out strongly will make you feel much better.
Sounds like you're doing a great job, and those uncomfortable questions need to be explored.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

If she says no and he's doing it anyway, I totally would be confronting the situation and not leaving them alone. He's violating her wishes and not listening to her, that is a big red flag to me.

Do what you need to do mama. Trust your instincts.

When you let this continue, even against her wishes, you're teaching her that her bodily privacy doesn't matter.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by A&A

When you let this continue, even against her wishes, you're teaching her that her bodily privacy doesn't matter.

Exactly. You are teaching her that if a boy touches her breast and she tells him to stop, that he doesn't need to. Her saying no just doesn't matter.

If you allow this to continue, you are teaching her to not even bother saying no.

It's not about the foot massage, it's about whether or not her body belongs to her.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

Exactly. You are teaching her that if a boy touches her breast and she tells him to stop, that he doesn't need to. Her saying no just doesn't matter.

If you allow this to continue, you are teaching her to not even bother saying no.

It's not about the foot massage, it's about whether or not her body belongs to her.

Yep. If I were you, I'd apologize to your dd that you've let this happen and promise her she'll never have to endure another foot rub again.

[EdnaMarie]

he does this to her even if she tells him to stop

This is wrong.

I think it is sad how so much adult-child touch has been made into possible molestation, but when a child says stop, when a PERSON says stop, it needs to stop.

It does not matter where he's touching her--top of the head (a pat), hand massage, foot massage, tickling under her arms, anywhere. If I were you, I would say the following:

"I love that you have a good relationship with DD, but we are teaching her that when she says stop, that it will be respected or she leaves. We don't want that situation to come up. So if she asks you to stop or not to do it, please stop. If not, we will help her leave. It's important that as a young woman she learns these skills if she wants to stand up to boys."

And then do it. If he doesn't stop, say politely but firmly, "Dad, she said NO. DD, come over here, please." Teach her to walk away. Let her do something else.

My husband is the type that thinks if he likes something, everybody must like it. He literally can not comprehend that someone might not like what he likes. It just... doesn't fit in his brain. So I can see how your dad might not get this without really firm action. He might think she's teasing or something. But you have to draw the line.