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Raising Girls in a Misogynistic Culture - Page 2

post #21 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lach View Post
And I do agree that I don't think that miniskirts are appropriate for girls who are young enough to play on the playground. I think that high fashion trickles down to young girls much more so than to young boys, and that clothes that are appropriate for adults (or not, I don't really care) are NOT appropriate for kids who need to be able to move freely and run and play. I can't tell you how many young girls I see at the playground in little slip-on ballet flats or flipflops that they can't run in, in super tight skinny jeans that don't allow movement, in tiny miniskirts that they're constantly tugging down. I don't think that it's appropriate for kids of either sex to show underwear, but I can't say that I've ever actually seen a boy doing it. They still get to run around in sneakers and jeans and oversize t shirts. It's not even entirely a "modesty" issue, it's also a practical one. Those clothes just aren't practical to play in. You can't go down a slide in a miniskirt that rides up: your butt won't slide down the hot metal slide easily.
Well, in our case, it has nothing to do with consumerism or fashion. DD1 has some beloved dresses and skirts that are "too short" for her now...about miniskirt length. She loves them, and she loves to play in them. So, she wears them. She finds them very comfortable, and she's certainly in a better position than I am to determine what's comfortable for her, yk?

She also goes to the playground after ballet sometimes, weather permitting. That means she's wearing tights, a leotard, and a ballet skirt...but not her ballet shoes, because she doesn't want to get them dirty.
post #22 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lach View Post
And I do agree that I don't think that miniskirts are appropriate for girls who are young enough to play on the playground. I think that high fashion trickles down to young girls much more so than to young boys, and that clothes that are appropriate for adults (or not, I don't really care) are NOT appropriate for kids who need to be able to move freely and run and play. I can't tell you how many young girls I see at the playground in little slip-on ballet flats or flipflops that they can't run in, in super tight skinny jeans that don't allow movement, in tiny miniskirts that they're constantly tugging down. I don't think that it's appropriate for kids of either sex to show underwear, but I can't say that I've ever actually seen a boy doing it. They still get to run around in sneakers and jeans and oversize t shirts. It's not even entirely a "modesty" issue, it's also a practical one. Those clothes just aren't practical to play in. You can't go down a slide in a miniskirt that rides up: your butt won't slide down the hot metal slide easily.
I totally agree. I hate that while shopping for my BABY they sell only low-rise jeans for her! Seriously, why in the world would an 18 month old sized kid need low rise jeans?
post #23 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
She finds them very comfortable, and she's certainly in a better position than I am to determine what's comfortable for her, yk?
I'm with you 100%.

My DDs are 12 and 13 and have been brought up to be their own people and make their own choices. Some of the choices they make would cause the some of the posters here to shudder. Both my girls seems to bounce around in exactly how important *modesty* is to them. My 12 year old was a cheerleader last year and she also went to district in chess. She's comfortable being smart and being cute, and has missed the nasty culture message that she must choose one.

My 13 year old, who looks like an adult, still loves to swing. (She isn't a mini skirt kinda girl and seldom wears dresses at all, but I think that some posters have a limited sense of the overlap between childhood pursuits and adults bodies).

Of course sexism exist, but over the years we've found so many wonderful people and activities who are capable of seeing the kids as whole people that's it's really been a small issue.

And I agree with the moms of boys that their options for what is OK is more limited at this point in time than it is for girls.

I wouldn't dream of telling my children who they should be sexual with or the right moment in their lives for that. I have shared with them what I've noticed over the years, including that the republicans and church leaders the loudest about abstinence tend to be the ones who are discovered to have been screwing around on their spouses or having had sex with people ickily younger than them. This is an area where many people are not open and honest about they do and yet set a very high standard for others.
post #24 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thank you for all these wonderful and thought-provoking responses!

I do agree that sexism hurts everyone, male and female. That's because misogyny hurts everyone, male and female. Each and every one of us has a unique combination of masculine and feminine traits, so rejection of the feminine really means rejection of everyone -- rejection of humanity.

I had lately been feeling mild annoyance toward dd's friend from across the street who she sometimes has a great time playing with, but who sometimes turns two-faced and disses her for being a girl. One day he informed her that girls are here because Adam got lonely, and boys are here to skateboard.

Dd told me she thought he was going to be sexist when he grew up, and I said it's hard to know what a young kid will be like when he's grown. I've just basically agreed with her that his rude behavior is really rude, and I've told her that it's up to her to decide whether it's worth it to keep playing with him at all.

Well, this morning dh went out to take care of our chickens and he saw a police car in front of dd's friend's house, and then dd's friend came walking up the street crying.

Dh put his hand on his shoulder and asked him what was wrong, and he said that his mother was feeling really sick and went to stay at her mom's house, and had her ex husband (he called him "my mom's ex husband," so I don't think it was his dad) come stay at their house while she was gone.

Well, this man went on a rampage and trashed their whole house and murdered their kittens.

So now I understand that the poor kid probably doesn't have a full deck to work with when it comes to learning how to respect women and girls. What a horrible thing to live through!
post #25 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Thank you for all these wonderful and thought-provoking responses!

I do agree that sexism hurts everyone, male and female. That's because misogyny hurts everyone, male and female. Each and every one of us has a unique combination of masculine and feminine traits, so rejection of the feminine really means rejection of everyone -- rejection of humanity.

I had lately been feeling mild annoyance toward dd's friend from across the street who she sometimes has a great time playing with, but who sometimes turns two-faced and disses her for being a girl. One day he informed her that girls are here because Adam got lonely, and boys are here to skateboard.

Dd told me she thought he was going to be sexist when he grew up, and I said it's hard to know what a young kid will be like when he's grown. I've just basically agreed with her that his rude behavior is really rude, and I've told her that it's up to her to decide whether it's worth it to keep playing with him at all.

Well, this morning dh went out to take care of our chickens and he saw a police car in front of dd's friend's house, and then dd's friend came walking up the street crying.

Dh put his hand on his shoulder and asked him what was wrong, and he said that his mother was feeling really sick and went to stay at her mom's house, and had her ex husband (he called him "my mom's ex husband," so I don't think it was his dad) come stay at their house while she was gone.

Well, this man went on a rampage and trashed their whole house and murdered their kittens.

So now I understand that the poor kid probably doesn't have a full deck to work with when it comes to learning how to respect women and girls. What a horrible thing to live through!
How terrible. The poor kid. Yeah, he obviously doesn't have very good gender models at home!
post #26 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post
A
When I go down the toy aisles at any big box store and visit the "Aisle o Pink" and the "Aisle o Blue" it is really disheartening to me. I dont understand why our society teaches girls to love dolls that are called things like "Tanning Barbie"? The blue aisle is so action based and the pink aisle is full of toys that encourage sedentary play. (I know most moms here at MDC are not encouraging this, Im referring to a large portion of society). I really think that it would be possible for our society to lessen sexism greatly by staying out of stores that are trying to tell us how and who our daughters should be.

♥anyway, thats my 2 cents. Hope it didnt offend anyone♥
~Holly~
And not only sedentary play, but play focused on unrealistic physical appearance, beauty, and being a "princess" saved by a prince (a man).
The boy toys always seem to encourage fighting and violence which I think can contribute to aggressive "machoism".
post #27 of 66
My MIL really bugs me with this whole issue. She is overall a great grandma but very stuck in stererotypical gender roles. Maybe it's because she only had boys or her traditional southern upbringing but she insists that girl's only play with "girl toys" and wear "girl clothes". She only ever sends princess-themed pink stuff (I drew the line at Barbie). Honestly, she is bored with these toys after a few minutes. I have had to put a stop to things she would say to DD - "you don't want to play with that, it's for boys!" On her last visit she got upset at DD because she refused to wear pigtails or ribbons in her hair. "Don't you want to look nice? Don't you want to look pretty?" - I stepped in and stopped her right there - I mean really - she is THREE years old and we were going to the playground? Why on earth does it matter how "good" or "pretty" she looks?
post #28 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by COgirl19 View Post
My MIL really bugs me with this whole issue. She is overall a great grandma but very stuck in stererotypical gender roles. Maybe it's because she only had boys or her traditional southern upbringing but she insists that girl's only play with "girl toys" and wear "girl clothes". She only ever sends princess-themed pink stuff (I drew the line at Barbie). Honestly, she is bored with these toys after a few minutes. I have had to put a stop to things she would say to DD - "you don't want to play with that, it's for boys!" On her last visit she got upset at DD because she refused to wear pigtails or ribbons in her hair. "Don't you want to look nice? Don't you want to look pretty?" - I stepped in and stopped her right there - I mean really - she is THREE years old and we were going to the playground? Why on earth does it matter how "good" or "pretty" she looks?
Just chiming in to say that I have the same problem with the IL's, although we have a 3 yr old boy. He wanted a play kitchen for Christmas last year, because he absolutely LOVES to help me cook in the kitchen. Granted, he helps me with real things at this point, and there's no need for the play kitchen. But when I told IL's this was what he wanted, the REFUSED to get it because "That's a girl toy". Um, hello, no it's not! It's a toy for children!

MIL also gets upset if he even so much as colors a pink picture. He happens to like how pink looks on paper. Not a problem for DH and I.

Also, he is athletic- very, very gifted athletically, and of course we encourage this since it is a natural talent. But IL's act as though it is his only quality of any value! If I say what a sweet boy he is, they say, "oh who cares! as long as he can hit the baseball" and stuff like that. They don't care how smart he is or anything else, just his athletic ability. It drives me bananas. We also got the "boys are lazy" comments since he did not walk until 14 months. We have a niece too, and they are horribly sexist when it comes to her too. She is supposed to be pretty and dressed perfectly at all times, can never get dirty, etc. They get super upset if she has a speck of food on her. Problem is, her mom is the same way. Grr.

I just wish in general our society didn't devalue both sexes. It makes me sad.
post #29 of 66
I don't understand this problem with "showing your underwear". I have been reading some posts and I have to say I agree that it is a problem for both genders. I only have girls and they are little but we have already encountered multiple comments, attitudes and looks regarding their gender in relation to what they were doing or wearing. It worries me but I sincerely hope that what we do at home will have the bigger impact on them and I try to stay conscience of what I say and do to ensure I don't tell them something I wouldn't tell a son/male.

But this underwear thing keeps soming up. For the op I find it quite strange that anyone would be offended by a little 5yo accidentally exposing her butt or her underwear. I also would find it strange if someone were offended if I accidentally showed my underwear. I understand offense if I were purposely exposing myself and you found it lewd (sp?), but if I was wearing a skirt and squatted down to help my kids and accidently someone saw my underwear I would not care. Its underwear. I am not sitting there trying to flash anyone and I assume your 5 yo was not either. Same goes with an tween or teen for me.
post #30 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellabaz View Post
But this underwear thing keeps soming up. For the op I find it quite strange that anyone would be offended by a little 5yo accidentally exposing her butt or her underwear. I also would find it strange if someone were offended if I accidentally showed my underwear. I understand offense if I were purposely exposing myself and you found it lewd (sp?), but if I was wearing a skirt and squatted down to help my kids and accidently someone saw my underwear I would not care. Its underwear. I am not sitting there trying to flash anyone and I assume your 5 yo was not either. Same goes with an tween or teen for me.
Personally, if I knew I were going to be in a situation where my underwear had a possibility of showing (or if my daughter was in one...like going to the playground) I'd make sure that it was covered somehow. When I attended a private Christian school we had to wear skirts/dresses every Thursday for chapel...it wasn't unheard of for the girls to wear tights or bike shorts underneath so they could still run and play at recess...
post #31 of 66
I guess I don't see the big deal about underwear. It is clothing... what makes it naughtier than pants or a shirt? swim suits? Unless it is being purposely shown off or is more lingerie style (which I hope people dont put on little kids) but even diapers are similar and my kiddo is often just in a diaper... why will she have to wear full clothing as soon as she is potty trained? A glimpse of underwear once in awhile shouldn't be such a horrible thing. Sometimes it happens. Heck, at least people don't wear underwear on the outside of pants or tights like superheros! hehe
post #32 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeoflife3 View Post
I guess I don't see the big deal about underwear. It is clothing... what makes it naughtier than pants or a shirt? swim suits? Unless it is being purposely shown off or is more lingerie style (which I hope people dont put on little kids) but even diapers are similar and my kiddo is often just in a diaper... why will she have to wear full clothing as soon as she is potty trained? A glimpse of underwear once in awhile shouldn't be such a horrible thing. Sometimes it happens. Heck, at least people don't wear underwear on the outside of pants or tights like superheros! hehe
I don't see little kid underwear as "naughty" or anything...but I think it's more of a teaching good habits early on kind of thing.
post #33 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
I don't see little kid underwear as "naughty" or anything...but I think it's more of a teaching good habits early on kind of thing.
Hmm. I guess I think playing is a pretty good habit for a 5yo. Of course, it's easy enough to pull shorts on under a dress but, for whatever reason, I failed to do it that day.

It seemed like rather a double-standard to me for someone to be fixated on my child's dress going up when she fell down one time, while not caring that her little brother's pants were perpetually falling down.

And, honestly, I'm with Storm Bride in not caring if boys want to wear that baggy pants style; it's just not that big of a deal either way.
post #34 of 66
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.
I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.
It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
post #35 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Hmm. I guess I think playing is a pretty good habit for a 5yo. Of course, it's easy enough to pull shorts on under a dress but, for whatever reason, I failed to do it that day.

It seemed like rather a double-standard to me for someone to be fixated on my child's dress going up when she fell down one time, while not caring that her little brother's pants were perpetually falling down.

And, honestly, I'm with Storm Bride in not caring if boys want to wear that baggy pants style; it's just not that big of a deal either way.
I see both situations as inappropriate. I don't think that one sex should be excluded from having to keep their undies covered. Now, my son's diaper shows on occasion (and we try to pull up his shorts when it does) but he recently got taller and lost some fat...and he's 17mo.

...and I just think the "baggy pants style" looks tacky.
post #36 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.
I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.
It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
FWIW I do...not to them but I don't make comments to people about their kids. I make an effort to keep myself covered and would do so for my children.
post #37 of 66
At some point my 8-year-old dd became modest and didn't want anyone to catch a glimpse of her underwear no matter what. I don't remember just how old she was, maybe 6? But I didn't worry about it, and even now I let her take the lead as far as that goes. I'm more worried about creating a sense of bodily shame in her than I am about anyone seeing her underwear.
post #38 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.

Oh.my.god. that statment is so f*ed up. Right, and women who wear skimpy outfits are just asking to be raped too, huh? Im totally discusted that anyone would say that to you and your daughter.

I really dont understand the whole "keep your legs closed" deal. They are kids, if they want to wear their halloween costume and hang upside down from a tree, I dont think it matters. IMO, when it is important for humans to cover themselves should be when they *feel* uncomfortable, not when society tells them to.


Sorry you didnt get support. Did you tell her off or were you just too stunned to say anything. I think I may have sat there with my mouth open, trying to think of where to begin with someone dumb enough to accuse my daughter of being the reason for molestation. I want to kick that lady for you.
post #39 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
I think people criticize that all the time. Not even just the "modest" crowd or something. There are entire webpages dedicated to making fun of people dressed in ugly or unflattering outfits, and they're mostly people showing underwear in one way or another. When the super low rise jeans were in style a few years back, it was pretty common to make fun of women wearing thongs under them because you could quite plainly see the "butt floss," as I've heard it referred to. And have you really never heard of anyone making fun of "plumber's crack"?
post #40 of 66
I don't see the point in wearing a dress if you have to wear shorts underneath. I thought the whole point of a dress was airflow? If I wanted to wear shorts, I would have skipped the dress entirely. I dunno. I'm not a dress-wearing sort.

And then, why is bike shorts not inappropriate but underwear is? If you're wearing bike shorts under your dress, they are essentially your underwear for that outfit.

I'm not saying anyone should be out flashing their underwear at people, but so what if you see a little?

But then, I see dresses as a way of keeping little girls restricted to begin with. Not that I don't let my kids wear them if they want.
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