You can't un-know what you know

[Dixielane]

This is kind of a vent from a mama struggling inbetween vaccinating, or not vaccinating.

I am researching both sides, and for now am not vaccinating because I cannot bring myself to do it when I feel such anxiety towards it..

I sometimes find myself wishing I could just unknow some things. Ignorance is bliss. Many moms and parents vaccinate without a second thought - infact, most I know do this, because we are taught to trust. I was this way, and the only way I happened to stumble upon non-vax information was the night before my DDs 2month appt, I was a nervous wreck and was trying to calm down, and realize through this board that I had options. I am just a southern girl who is not typically "crunchy", but I am becoming more and more crunchy the more I find out about..

I thought it would be as simple as reading both sides, and coming to a conclusion. But I realize now it is much more complex. I don't know if I will ever make a 100% concrete decision. I wonder if any other mama's are like this. I can read articles on pro-vax and I leave it feeling like "hmmm okay, maybe I need to consider a vax or two. After all, EVERYONE I know does all vaxes!".. And then a little voice says, "but why be mainstream? Don't you see how many people have cancer nowdays? Child leukemia? Diabetes? Why alter your child from default mode?". Then as soon as I think that, something will trigger me to consider vaxes again. Alot of times it is something like a family friend whom I trust says something like "I've been around hundreds of kids in my 50 years, and I've never seen a kid hurt by vaccines"

I never have personally known one hurt either. But what if it were mine? And even if she doesn't react, what if it is altering her immune system later in life as an adult?

My hubby said I am going to drive myself nuts with research, but I am the type that I *need* to arm myself with knowledge, and now that I know certain things, I can't just unknow it, and hand everything over to my doctor. The one doctor I do like though, will still see me if I don't vax, but she is pro-vax and had me feeling like I would vaccinate after we had a discussion and I felt better about it. But DD got a cough before her appointment, so I cancelled. And just haven't re-scheduled.

Anyway, just venting I guess to other moms who might "get" this dilemma. Thanks for reading.

[hollytheteacher]

Originally Posted by Dixielane

This is kind of a vent from a mama struggling inbetween vaccinating, or not vaccinating.

I am researching both sides, and for now am not vaccinating because I cannot bring myself to do it when I feel such anxiety towards it..

I sometimes find myself wishing I could just unknow some things. Ignorance is bliss. Many moms and parents vaccinate without a second thought - infact, most I know do this, because we are taught to trust. I was this way, and the only way I happened to stumble upon non-vax information was the night before my DDs 2month appt, I was a nervous wreck and was trying to calm down, and realize through this board that I had options. I am just a southern girl who is not typically "crunchy", but I am becoming more and more crunchy the more I find out about..

I thought it would be as simple as reading both sides, and coming to a conclusion. But I realize now it is much more complex. I don't know if I will ever make a 100% concrete decision. I wonder if any other mama's are like this. I can read articles on pro-vax and I leave it feeling like "hmmm okay, maybe I need to consider a vax or two. After all, EVERYONE I know does all vaxes!".. And then a little voice says, "but why be mainstream? Don't you see how many people have cancer nowdays? Child leukemia? Diabetes? Why alter your child from default mode?". Then as soon as I think that, something will trigger me to consider vaxes again. Alot of times it is something like a family friend whom I trust says something like "I've been around hundreds of kids in my 50 years, and I've never seen a kid hurt by vaccines"

I never have personally known one hurt either. But what if it were mine? And even if she doesn't react, what if it is altering her immune system later in life as an adult?

My hubby said I am going to drive myself nuts with research, but I am the type that I *need* to arm myself with knowledge, and now that I know certain things, I can't just unknow it, and hand everything over to my doctor. The one doctor I do like though, will still see me if I don't vax, but she is pro-vax and had me feeling like I would vaccinate after we had a discussion and I felt better about it. But DD got a cough before her appointment, so I cancelled. And just haven't re-scheduled.

Anyway, just venting I guess to other moms who might "get" this dilemma. Thanks for reading.

I TOTALLY get what you are saying. We have just taken vax very slowly and as i research and make up my mind it changes back and forth and i continue to NOT vax until it feels right. I decided 3 was a good age for MMR and just did it and felt TOTALLY confident. But i soooo know what you mean!

[Dixielane]

Originally Posted by hollytheteacher

I TOTALLY get what you are saying. We have just taken vax very slowly and as i research and make up my mind it changes back and forth and i continue to NOT vax until it feels right. I decided 3 was a good age for MMR and just did it and felt TOTALLY confident. But i soooo know what you mean!

Im glad to hear when you did get MMR you felt okay with it. I am not saying I won't ever vax, but if I do, I don't want to do it and second guess myself. Atleast second guessing myself now is not a permanant thing, she is on "default" now, I can keep her this way, or eventually decide to vax.. So while I change my mind often, atleast this way I have options. If I second guess it after I vax her, well, the vax has been done. I know I could quit giving them, but then that first one would be a waste if I changed my mind.. all for nothing. I want to believe in it if I do it.

It's just frusterating. I feel like I've gone from one extreme to another. I bawled my eyes out last night after watching a non-vax video. But give it 24 hours and I'll come up with something that makes me feel like I should vax.

[blumooned]

I also "get it"! I have done tons of research & really try to look at both sides. So far, though, no vaxes here. My logic says, "Why would I want to inject all that stuff into a perfectly healthy little boy?" but it also says, "Look at all the kids who are just fine." (Although for that last one, how do ever know the long term effects?)

I do agree, sometimes it would be nice to not so so much - but I think in the end, it is better to be armed with the info!!

[xmasbaby7]

I, too, took my time in getting to a place where I felt solid in my choices. I had a hard time believing when I began my research that vaccines weren't a good thing.

So then I settled on selectively vaccinating starting at 1, but by the time my babe was one, I could already see a difference in a healthy intact immune system and those of the other babies around us who were vaccinated but whose parents still breastfed like I did and fed only organic food like I did.

The benefit by waiting is that I felt like I had a gun to my head that I HAD TO DECIDE ASAP for the first six or eight months or so, and then that rushed crazy feeling just went away.

I did ultimately become a non vaxer and am very solid in the choice I have made somewhere in between the 2nd and 3rd birthday.

Good luck. Regardless of what you decide, you do have time.

[Dixielane]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

I, too, took my time in getting to a place where I felt solid in my choices. I had a hard time believing when I began my research that vaccines weren't a good thing.

So then I settled on selectively vaccinating starting at 1, but by the time my babe was one, I could already see a difference in a healthy intact immune system and those of the other babies around us who were vaccinated but whose parents still breastfed like I did and fed only organic food like I did.

The benefit by waiting is that I felt like I had a gun to my head that I HAD TO DECIDE ASAP for the first six or eight months or so, and then that rushed crazy feeling just went away.

I did ultimately become a non vaxer and am very solid in the choice I have made somewhere in between the 2nd and 3rd birthday.

Good luck. Regardless of what you decide, you do have time.

Thank you. You just made a lightbulb go off in my head. You're sooo right, I don't have to decide RIGHT NOW. It feels like I do constantly, because I don't want her to get sick with something I could vaccinate for. But truthfully, even if I did vax, one or two vaxes aren't going to provide the immunity she would have at the end of a series over 1 year old. Full protection won't happen under 1 year old for most of these diseases, right? And I know with pertussis, the danger zone is 6months. Once she is over that, that one is not as bad of a risk.

Hmmmm.

[Dixielane]

I also keep buying time. I felt relief when I cancelled her last appt, and the doc said "Okay, see you at 4months". Now that 4months has rolled around, I want to wait till 6months.

Is it bad I am doing it this way? I am just scared to do it and the older she gets the more I feel like "OK, I can do this nonvax thing". When they are fragile, its so easy to let doctors or other peoples just scare you into anything, good or bad.

[xmasbaby7]

I think everything feels so crazy those first six months of parenthood. I have come a long way from the complete terror I felt those first few wbv's, given that I don't even go to the doc for most of my child's illnesses now and don't do wbv's anymore.

Even though I am a real skeptic when it comes to modern pediatrics, I still needed an authority figure like the ped or my midwife say "you are doing a good job" those first few months. That also went away.

There is just too much fear and freak out those first few months to make a decision that you can feel soundly about, IMO.

I can promise you that you will feel much more grounded to approach this over the next year.

[Dixielane]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

I think everything feels so crazy those first six months of parenthood. I have come a long way from the complete terror I felt those first few wbv's, given that I don't even go to the doc for most of my child's illnesses now and don't do wbv's anymore.

Even though I am a real skeptic when it comes to modern pediatrics, I still needed an authority figure like the ped or my midwife say "you are doing a good job" those first few months. That also went away.

There is just too much fear and freak out those first few months to make a decision that you can feel soundly about, IMO.

I can promise you that you will feel much more grounded to approach this over the next year.

Thank you. Maybe I need to just sit on this for a while. I research every night! Arrrrrg. My hubby says "thou shalt not google!" LOL I guess I feel its MOST time sensitive now since she's little

[Dixielane]

Someone from another forum just brought up something interesting.

How can we be sure non-vax'd kids are not just simply protected because of those who DO vax? What would happen if everyone didn't vaccinate?

Anyone have info on this?

[annie2186]

Originally Posted by Dixielane

Someone from another forum just brought up something interesting.

How can we be sure non-vax'd kids are not just simply protected because of those who DO vax? What would happen if everyone didn't vaccinate?

Anyone have info on this?

I think this was covered in the mothering magazine that talking about "the vaccine debate". They had a really good answer - and I don't have my magazine with me, but I will try to find it and get back with you!

Personally - the mantra "I would rather TREAT my sick kid, than INFECT my healthy one" just kinda stuck with me........

Plus - a few months ago I thought my completely unvaxed youngest daughter had mumphs (she didn't). OMG - I FREAKED out thinking that she had caught something that I was supposed to vaccinate for and therefore she was going to die.

Yeah.........after some googling, Mumphs is uhhh NOT a big deal!! I mean, you don't even have to go to the doctor. Its just something like a cold.

Really? We vaccinate for that?

Anyways, rant over.

[MountainMamaGC]

As a non vaxer all I can say is that as of today, I have read nothing that compells me to vaccinate. I am open to the thought that there may be that day I find something that compells me, which is why I still read both sides. I find the provax stuff infuriating mostly, but maybe someday it will make sense to me. Today is not that day, so today is another day I will be comfortable not vaccinating my child.

I will not do it until I am 100% sure. I am responsible to my child first and foremost.

[Dixielane]

What does a non-vaxxer do in the event of an outbreak? Say, what happens if we have a biological warfare (isnt that what its called when an enemy plants a disease bomb?) and we get a smallpox outbreak, which we know was devestating. If that happened, I don't think one vaccine would do anything... so would nonvaxers essentially...be screwed? (for lack of better word! lol!)

Sorry I am asking random questions. I am in a debate of sorts on another board and this came up. I was trying to get some counter opinions from the provax side. They said that vaccinating is my duty to prevent outbreaks. I refuse to harm my child for the sake of someone else.. BUT.. what DO you do if an outbreak happened?? Maybe it is beneficial? Er...I dont know.

[FernG]

Smallpox isn't on the vaccine schedule. I see from your signature that you are 22. Unless you were born overseas or have been deployed in the military, you weren't vaccinated for smallpox. Just FYI, I hear from vaxing parents all the time "what about smallpox?" Many think that they and their children are vaccinated against it. The smallpox vaccine is more reactive and less effective than many vaccines. You can't choose to give it to your child anyway, so i wouldn't worry too much about it.

If there is a biological attack, the government has plans to forcibly mass vaccinate everyone. Courts have ruled that there is no constitutional right to not vaccinate. I don't know if we have the organization to force a vaccine on everyone, but the plan is to try.

[ema-adama]

In relation to non vaxers being 'screwed'. I think that would depend entirely on why the parents have chosen not to vaccinate ans whether there are laws in place to protect their right not to accept the vaccine.

If you would never consider any vaccine under any circumstance, and you were forced to do it, it's a type of being screwed, yeah. If you would never under any circumstances accept a vaccine, and the disease had a close to 100% fatality rate, (and the vaccine was effective), then yeah, it is likely you would die/'be screwed'.

Irrespective of whether it would be a good idea ot mass vaccinate an entire population with a vaccine in the event of biological warfare, the point has nothing to do with whether your 4 month old should be vaccinated for Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis, Polio, Hib, Pneumococcal disease and Rotavirus.

I am sure you have read this here many times, but it makes more sense to look at each disease and each vaccine. Not all diseases are equally dangerous or equally likely. Not all vaccines are equally effective.

In the event of biological warfare, and you have a choice whether you accept any vaccine offered, it would make sense to weigh up your options for THAT vaccine.

Accepting all infant vaccines on schedule in the event of there possibly being a biological attack just does not makes sense.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Originally Posted by Dixielane

What does a non-vaxxer do in the event of an outbreak? Say, what happens if we have a biological warfare (isnt that what its called when an enemy plants a disease bomb?) and we get a smallpox outbreak, which we know was devestating. If that happened, I don't think one vaccine would do anything... so would nonvaxers essentially...be screwed? (for lack of better word! lol!)

Sorry I am asking random questions. I am in a debate of sorts on another board and this came up. I was trying to get some counter opinions from the provax side. They said that vaccinating is my duty to prevent outbreaks. I refuse to harm my child for the sake of someone else.. BUT.. what DO you do if an outbreak happened?? Maybe it is beneficial? Er...I dont know.

Since we dont vaccinate for small pox, and havent in decades, we ALL would be screwed.

And if it comes up on your board again, remind those readers of who ACTUALLY was the enemy during the last small pox outbreak on the indian reservations in the north.

[mamadelbosque]

s Its hard. My DS1 is 3.5 now and still vax-free... though I will admit to seriously starting to reconsider the DT shot for the tetanus portion mostly because of where we live (middle of nowhere, with animals, go barefoot lots of scrapes/cuts/punctures/etc). I haven't gotten it yet, but its definetly something I think about.

Something that I found very enlightening was to examine rates of polio in the US vs europe in the 50s/60s. It dissapeared in europe at the same time as the US. Without the vax. And when you consider that the guy who invented the IPV (what we currently use) admitted long ago that it does not work... well, makes you pause to consider. Or at least, it made *me* pause to consider. And theres the fact that we changed the very definition of polio at the same time the vax came out - and what we used to fear as polio we now fear as viral/aspetic meningitus. When you explain these things to people, it makes everyone pause and go 'huh'.

Good luck!!!

[FernG]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

s Its hard. My DS1 is 3.5 now and still vax-free... though I will admit to seriously starting to reconsider the DT shot for the tetanus portion mostly because of where we live (middle of nowhere, with animals, go barefoot lots of scrapes/cuts/punctures/etc). I haven't gotten it yet, but its definetly something I think about.

Something that I found very enlightening was to examine rates of polio in the US vs europe in the 50s/60s. It dissapeared in europe at the same time as the US. Without the vax. And when you consider that the guy who invented the IPV (what we currently use) admitted long ago that it does not work... well, makes you pause to consider. Or at least, it made *me* pause to consider. And theres the fact that we changed the very definition of polio at the same time the vax came out - and what we used to fear as polio we now fear as viral/aspetic meningitus. When you explain these things to people, it makes everyone pause and go 'huh'.
Good luck!!!

Good point. I was scared due our culture about polio. It was easy to skip after I learned that the only cases in the US in decades have been from the oral polio vaccine and that the now-used IPV doesn't prevent acquisition or transmission so the government is planning to revax everyone with the oral polio vax during an outbreak.

[dakotablue]

Just wanted to throw out there...in there. We vax for mumps because some adult males became sterile and We vax against Rubella because it can be dangerous to unborn children. I know these, but found some links to back that up. An interesting thing though is we don't vax against 5th disease (there was a mom on here who recently miscarried due to exposure)we don't vax because of the danger of the disease to children who get it, but society.

Also, in the case of biological warfare, they aren't going to attack us with something we are immune to. I've heard the argument that they could attack with a variation the vax doesn't cover, which given some immune theories those not vax would have an easier time adapting to. (forgive me I can't recall the name its about how the immune system remembers and then responds that way instead of assessing then responding)

we are currently delaying all vaxes until further notice, I don't know if we will, but I know not yet.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/mumps.htm

In 20 to 30 per cent of the cases of adult men with mumps, the disease infects the testicles (orchitis) causing swelling, pain, soreness and a higher temperature. This often occurs about a week after the disease has broken out, and is a serious infection that may cause sterility.

However, among the few sexually mature men who contract mumps, only half get orchitis. Of these patients, only 10 per cent are affected in both testicles, and even then it does not necessarily cause sterility. If sterility occurs, there is still a chance that fertility may return

http://www.babycenter.com/0_rubella-...rticlesection7

A rubella infection can cause miscarriage, preterm birth, or stillbirth, as well as a variety of birth defects, but it depends on how far along you are when you contract the virus. The risks are highest during the early stages of a baby's development and they go down as pregnancy progresses.

If you get rubella during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, there's a high chance (up to 85 percent) that your baby will develop CRS. The rate of CRS for a baby whose mother is infected between 13 and 16 weeks is about 54 percent, and the rate continues to go down sharply from there. After 20 weeks there's very little risk that the infection will cause a birth defect.

[littlest birds]

Dixielane,

I just wanted to pop in here to say that I am 99% convinced that vaccines are a huge cause of the severe and moderate allergies that are now so common. For instance, peanut products are used in producing at least one vaccine, and now almost every school has to ban peanut products due to the large number of allergic children.

I believe: Infant bodies mobilize against that mix of ingredients to leave them permanently sensitized. It fits. It fits what we know of how allergies can be triggered and how widespread they are now. Think for instance of how infants are recommended to not be fed certain foods early in life because they are more likely to cause allergies if started extremely young. How about straight into the bloodstream within days or weeks of birth? It's just hidden due to how we think about health and cause and effect and etc.

I am equally sure that the huge increase in all sorts of mild to severe autoimmune illnesses is at least partly caused by vaccines. These health problems are everywhere. So many diseases have and autoimmune factor-- I can hardly believe how many people have significant problem with their immune systems. Significant interventions should always be considered with far more skepticism as a society than we give this one. That onslaught of foreign substances in infancy is insane. Direct into the bloodstream. I can hardly process that we think it is okay to affect little bodies in this dramatic way. We don't even seem to think it's dramatic--we underestimate the sensitivity of those small bodies and the largeness of what that injection actually does. It's not just the cliche of mercury, but so many non-neutral things all thrown together. I fully believe that a century from now we will look upon this as a long, sad episode of ignorance for which several generations of children paid a severe price.

The longer I have soaked up what knowledge I can, and even the health problems of my friends and acquaintances along with seeing more reasons to link them to vaccines, the more convinced I am of the rightness of my choices and the sadder I am for so many children. I can't say I wish I was ignorant. But it is hard to coexist with a society that thinks beliefs like mine are ridiculous, selfish, skewed... Still I can't unknow what I know--most of it what you all here already know as well--to make myself comfortable. Sigh.