Friend's baby died...attempted homebirth then transfer :( Need some encouragement - Page 2

[Arete]

I really don't think anyone on this site, an any post anyone could dig up, ever suggested that they'd rather have a dead baby than a cesarean.  That is, I must say, a ludicrous idea.  What we are [clearly] arguing against is the pervasive idea in modern America that a c/s is not a big deal, or the easy way out.  When I was in the hospital, the woman who brought my food had the gall to say to me that, hey, I didn't have to push, right?  Ha Ha!  In retrospect I wish I'd thrown the tray at her.  We downplay it at every turn.  And you know, for someone who, like myself, is REALLY screwed up by the experience, suicide wouldn't have been a heck of a lot better alternative that that dead baby we all keep referencing.  So let's keep things in perspective.  A woman will undergo any horror to save the live of her baby.  But DO NOT downplay the trauma of hospital intervention.  PTSD and postpartum psychosis may be the result.

[waluso]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

C-section is not a big deal as dead baby or a dead mother. Nothing is more traumatic than this to the family. I am sure in retrospect the OP's friend would rather have a trauma of c-secion that that of the child's burial.

What has happened to MDC? This used to be a supportive site where we treated each other with respect. Lately I'm seeing so many comments like this and it really saddens me. No one said a c-section is never necessary. But downplaying the effects of a significant, invasive surgery invalidates the negative experiences of those who have gone through it, suffered the ill effects, and been traumatized (and had the health of themselves and their babies impacted by it). I would do anything to save my baby, and I agreed to the c-section, but that decision should not be taken lightly.  
 

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by waluso 

What has happened to MDC? This used to be a supportive site where we treated each other with respect.
 

You're hearing a chorus of voices here, with differing points of view. That's not a bad thing on MDC. Expressing a unpopular viewpoint is not the same as being disrespectful. It is also appropriate for any viewpoint to be challenged in a respectful way, which is what I see happening here.

I'll add my voice to those who are pointing out that c-section is a big deal. It certainly was for me. It also sounds like in the situation mentioned in the OP, it is not clear that c-section would have saved the baby.

It is always hard to encounter death, but especially so when it touches birth so closely. OP, I am sorry that your friend is suffering such a difficult loss.

[waluso]

I guess i disagree that it was respectful. I don't think the poster really read the other replies and was just trying to get her viewpoint out supporting c sections. If the poster has an opinion that c sections aren't a big deal, well that's his or her opinion.  But to raise the dead baby card when someone merely said c sections should not be taken lightly is inflammatory, offensive, and trying to start an argument. I've been reading so many replies here lately that are inflammatory and I've just ignored them, but it seems to be becoming more and more common and hard to ignore.  There is a place and thread for those discussions, but I don't see how this is the appropriate thread.

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by waluso 

I guess i disagree that it was respectful. I don't think the poster really read the other replies and was just trying to get her viewpoint out supporting c sections. If the poster has an opinion that c sections aren't a big deal, well that's his or her opinion.  But to raise the dead baby card when someone merely said c sections should not be taken lightly is inflammatory, offensive, and trying to start an argument. I've been reading so many replies here lately that are inflammatory and I've just ignored them, but it seems to be becoming more and more common and hard to ignore.  There is a place and thread for those discussions, but I don't see how this is the appropriate thread.

Oh, OK, I see where you're coming from. I just read the tone of the comment differently and didn't see it as deliberately offensive or inflammatory.

At any rate, I don't want to derail this thread with an argument about what the intended tone of someone else's comment was. Forgive me for "stirring the pot" in a way that might not have been helpful.

Peace.

[mommychick]

The thing about c-sections is it's easy to say "if I'd have known my baby was going to die, i'd have had a c-section".  Noone except God knows the future, so you CAN'T know.  Doctors CAN'T know!!  I certainly wouldn't want to risk a hysterectomy.  What if I end up with a hysterectomy (one of the many risks) and can NEVER have another child?  We should have the most gentle birth possible and leave the results in the hands of God.

[Tryamour]

Did you just say that Liz's loss was unavoidable?
Seriously, I'm not being b*tchy, just wondering if I read that wrong.  It definitely was not unavoidable that belief is dangerous and keeps women uninformed about the safety of birth.

Originally Posted by lunarlady 

Liz-hippymom - I'm sorry my post upset you. It is true that some labor injuries and losses are avoidable, and I am familiar with your case and know that is true for you. However, birth injury and death can happen both at home and in the hospital, and that is why I said it is POSSIBLE that was the case for her friend's baby. Without knowing details, there is no way to judge if being in a different setting would have made a difference for that mom. All moms who have a bad birth experience question "would it have been better if I had done ______?". It is an individual thing to see if you find more comfort in the answer being "yes" or "no". As you can tell from my post, I am more of a "no" person. Once again I'm sorry to upset you. I would never want to add to the pain of a grieving mama. I have nothing but respect for the strength it takes to deal with the loss of a child.

[Tryamour]

lol, nevermind I can't read!

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by waluso 

What has happened to MDC? This used to be a supportive site where we treated each other with respect. Lately I'm seeing so many comments like this and it really saddens me. No one said a c-section is never necessary. But downplaying the effects of a significant, invasive surgery invalidates the negative experiences of those who have gone through it, suffered the ill effects, and been traumatized (and had the health of themselves and their babies impacted by it). I would do anything to save my baby, and I agreed to the c-section, but that decision should not be taken lightly.  
 

The UA changed and now everyone can pretty much say whatever they want, leaving a lot of posters no longer feeling the obligation to engage in a tactful or respectful tone.

[Cheshire]

Originally Posted by waluso 

I guess i disagree that it was respectful. I don't think the poster really read the other replies and was just trying to get her viewpoint out supporting c sections. If the poster has an opinion that c sections aren't a big deal, well that's his or her opinion.  But to raise the dead baby card when someone merely said c sections should not be taken lightly is inflammatory, offensive, and trying to start an argument. I've been reading so many replies here lately that are inflammatory and I've just ignored them, but it seems to be becoming more and more common and hard to ignore.  There is a place and thread for those discussions, but I don't see how this is the appropriate thread.

So, using the phrase "dead baby card" isn't inflammatory and offensive? 

The thing about c-sections is it's easy to say "if I'd have known my baby was going to die, i'd have had a c-section".  Noone except God knows the future, so you CAN'T know.  Doctors CAN'T know!!  I certainly wouldn't want to risk a hysterectomy.  What if I end up with a hysterectomy (one of the many risks) and can NEVER have another child?  We should have the most gentle birth possible and leave the results in the hands of God.

For my second son's birth I know he would have been saved had I received a c-sec.  Even if he hadn't, I would have risked it all to hold him now instead of his ashes in an urn.  Your faith may lead you to believe God controls it all but I believe in free will.  God didn't take my son because He "needed another angel" but I know God was there when my son took his last breath in my arms. For me, God doesn't kill our children. 

Edited to add - c-sections are major surgery and I know from the stories I've read on here the number of complications they can bring.  I'm not in the camp to minimize major abdominal surgery.  Having lost a child I can tell you that our society doesn't know how to deal well with that and many downplay the loss or blame the mom for the decisions that were made.

Edited by Cheshire - 7/9/11 at 7:45pm

[Alenushka]

Some surgeries are far more major than c-sections and have higher mortality rate and people still do them. Why? To be alive. So, it all relative.

90% of colonoscopies and 80% of breast biopsies, in retrospect, were not needed. And yet....people do them still. Why? Because they do not want to be that 10 or 20% who will die form cancer.

Doctors lost many court cases for not doing a c-section and one one for doing a c-section?  Why? because the unnecessary c-section causes less harm than the the unperformed one which cause maternal or neonatal fatality.

I know it sucks to have unnecessary, in retrospect, procedure. I had a few. My kid had one under general. But   sometime the alternative is far more gruesome.

Medicine changes every day and some day there will be more precise info for surgeries, biopsies etc.

Originally Posted by Cheshire 

So, using the phrase "dead baby card" isn't inflammatory and offensive? 

For my second son's birth I know he would have been saved had I received a c-sec.  Even if he hadn't, I would have risked it all to hold him now instead of his ashes in an urn.  Your faith may lead you to believe God controls it all but I believe in free will.  God didn't take my son because He "needed another angel" but I know God was there when my son took his last breath in my arms. For me, God doesn't kill our children. 

Edited to add - c-sections are major surgery and I know from the stories I've read on here the number of complications they can bring.  I'm not in the camp to minimize major abdominal surgery.  Having lost a child I can tell you that our society doesn't know how to deal well with that and many downplay the loss or blame the mom for the decisions that were made.

[Alenushka]

Not everyone believes in god, with all due respect.

Originally Posted by mommychick 

The thing about c-sections is it's easy to say "if I'd have known my baby was going to die, i'd have had a c-section".  Noone except God knows the future, so you CAN'T know.  Doctors CAN'T know!!  I certainly wouldn't want to risk a hysterectomy.  What if I end up with a hysterectomy (one of the many risks) and can NEVER have another child?  We should have the most gentle birth possible and leave the results in the hands of God.

[Kanna]

On tone on the internet

It can be really hard to make a call sometimes on whether something is inflammatory or not, for two reasons:

- The internet lacks stuff like body-language, facial expressions and tone of voice, which are a BIG part of communication. This imperfection means that if someone SAYS words to you, you'll know if a person is being aggressive or not. With just the written words in the comments, it can happen that you read emotion into them that the poster never intended.

- Communication background. In my family / usual peer-group, we're fairly fact focused, straightforward and debate stuff a LOT and people are even perfectly fine with it if the argument gets a bit heated. Other people have other communication backgrounds, that are more focused on the emotional context of a debate, a bit more indirect in their approach and more sensitive to the feelings of the people involved. Either is valid. Either is fine. But when people from different communication backgrounds meet, unaware that they're using different "communication protocols", then things can get messy. The solution is, I believe, somewhere in the middle: be aware of the difference, straightforward people can tread a little more softly and people with an indirect communication approach can view the stuff  the straightforward people say with a slightly more relaxed attitude.

On cesarian sections being a "BIG" thing

- Just to get the semantics out of the way: CS is NOT abdominal surgery. It is PELVIC surgery. The pelvic and the abdominal cavity are separated by the peritoneum and while yes, CS qualifies as a major surgery because of the anaesthesia given, it's nowhere near vital organs like the heart or the lungs.

- If CS is considered "BIG" is subjective to the mom that has it. I have a few aquaintances and friends that have had CS and to them, it was no big deal and perfectly fine. The analogy is not perfect, but I think CS is a bit like being confronted with a big, fat spider in your bedroom: some people will find the experience horrendous and other people will just shrug it off and then proceed to kill or remove the spider. (Me, I don't mind spiders....but I'm dead scared of wasps, hornets and even bees. I run and scream. And I'm not even allergic.)

On postpartum depression

As for the link between postpartum depression and having had a ceasarean section, resarch seems to indicate that there is non. Here's a link to a meta-analysis on the subject: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/68/2/321.short

I tend to agree with this finding, since I know a quite a few women that had CS and were "radiant, glowing" moms afterwards, that bonded well with their kids and breastfed, and I know cases of women delivering vaginally who were quite depressed afterwards.

Yes, postpartum depression is a terrible thing and that there are moms out there who are faced with the difficult and unpleasant task of working through it. I believe though (backed by the meta-study) that CS in and of itself is unlikely to be the cause.

[Kanna]

@ Alenushka

Come  to think of it, a portion of appendectomies that are performed each year turn out to have been unnecessary, since the cause for the abdominal pain that led to the surgery was not appendicits after all.

Still, I think it's preferable to still do appendectomies if you suspect that there's appendicits, even though it might turn out not to have been, simply because people can die from a ruptured, infected appendix that is not removed quite easily, but the complication / mortality rate for appendectomies is VERY low.

[Delicateflower]

Originally Posted by Arete 

I really don't think anyone on this site, an any post anyone could dig up, ever suggested that they'd rather have a dead baby than a cesarean.  That is, I must say, a ludicrous idea. 

I only wish that were true. It's not, but I'm not going to go and dig up the posts to drag it all out again. Suffice to say that the sentiment has been expressed by people on this site, and it was acted upon by at least two of them.

[LiLStar]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Some surgeries are far more major than c-sections and have higher mortality rate and people still do them. Why? To be alive. So, it all relative.

90% of colonoscopies and 80% of breast biopsies, in retrospect, were not needed. And yet....people do them still. Why? Because they do not want to be that 10 or 20% who will die form cancer.

Doctors lost many court cases for not doing a c-section and one one for doing a c-section?  Why? because the unnecessary c-section causes less harm than the the unperformed one which cause maternal or neonatal fatality.

I know it sucks to have unnecessary, in retrospect, procedure. I had a few. My kid had one under general. But   sometime the alternative is far more gruesome.

Medicine changes every day and some day there will be more precise info for surgeries, biopsies etc.

Umm. Those are scheduled procedures. The patien has the luxury of making a decision without immediate presure/coersion. And I doubt anyone ever had one unnecessarily because their dr was in a hurry to get home that night. And I sure as hell bet no one was ever given a breast biopsy while actively exclaiming that they do not consent. The cesarean rate is inexcuseable. The unnecessary ones aren't only instances of suspected fetal distress that may or may not be an emergency. They happen because a dr thinks the baby is "too big" (implying that the mother is a bad mother if she refuses) or because its 5pm or because the on call ob asks the laboring mother her shoe size (which was, if I recall, 8) then wheeling her off to surgery without any explanation. These aren't just stories i just read online somewhere. I've looked these women in the eye as they told their stories in person. These aren't just acceptable "retrospectively unnecessary" surgeries because the alternative is potentially not sectioning a baby who would otherwise die, this is a disgusting abuse of women. And no, they can't sue. And its a shame that OBs can do whatever they damn well please to women and have immunity. Most unnecessary surgeries aren't that blatant. Failure to progress(wait) is pretty typical. But sometimes its called after 4 hours. C-sections suck. Dead babies suck more, but I'm seriously disturbed by the lack of understanding I'm seeing around here.

[Alenushka]

Scheduled or not scheduled , they are still not necessary in retrospect. you could argue if the patients just "trusted the colon' or 'trusted the breast' and relied on the comforting statistics, many of those procedures would be avoided. And yet.....women do breast biopsies . Why? Because not one wants to be that 20 % with cancer.   There are plenty of women who know that some C-sections may not necessary in retrospect but will still give informed consent for surgery.  I would have. I would not want to be in that % that was necessary, did not happen and killed my baby.

Unnecessary c-section do not kill babies. Yes, there is increase risk to mother but it is still small price to pay, to me personally, to cradle a child in my arms. Just like breast biopsy risk is small price to rule out a horrible decease.

I was very well informed about my epidural when I agreed to it. It is kind of insulting to assume that every women whoa agrees to any medical intervention is not educated or informed.  I do not where you heard your stories, but i have never seen a doctor doing any procedure because he was in the hurry to get home.  In fact, most of the procedure make doctors stay later that they needed.

[Alenushka]

Yes

Endless cardiology work ups are done on people who complain of chest pain in ER.  Most of the time it is not an MI.  And yet, people agree....they do not want to die.

Originally Posted by Kanna 

@ Alenushka

Come  to think of it, a portion of appendectomies that are performed each year turn out to have been unnecessary, since the cause for the abdominal pain that led to the surgery was not appendicits after all.

Still, I think it's preferable to still do appendectomies if you suspect that there's appendicits, even though it might turn out not to have been, simply because people can die from a ruptured, infected appendix that is not removed quite easily, but the complication / mortality rate for appendectomies is VERY low.

[Lizbiz]

Hey All, 

Usually don't pipe in on these sorts of things... but... here we go.  I think the tone of this conversation has gotten really out of hand.  It seems like a few folks who are not into homebirth have pretty much highjacked the threads for some unknown reason.  Maybe they like a good debate or maybe they are hoping to 'win over' a few folks to their point of view.  I'd gently remind all of us that this forum is the homebirth forum.  There are a lot of other forums, and other websites where you can discuss all of this.  

I have no problem with women who choose epidurals.  I don't think it's the best choice out there in general - but hey, to each her own.  I have dear friends who've had them without any ill effects.  I've had others who've had terrible experiences.  Same with C-Section.  

Can I suggest that we simmer down and try to keep conversation here supportive, rather than combative?  Why the fighting words?  A lost child is a tragedy, I know - it's awful and terribly raw and touches all of our deepest fears as mothers.  But so much more the reason NOT to turn on each other in conversation.  I think suffice it to say - we are all doing our best to have healthy babies - and for me that means natural homebirth.  For others that means the hospital.  

Blessings to all for happy, healthy babies and wonderful births.

~Liz

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by Lizbiz 

Hey All, 

.....  It seems like a few folks who are not into homebirth have pretty much highjacked the threads for some unknown reason.  .....

I have no problem with women who choose epidurals.  I don't think it's the best choice out there in general - but hey, to each her own.  I have dear friends who've had them without any ill effects.  I've had others who've had terrible experiences.  Same with C-Section.  

.....  I think suffice it to say - we are all doing our best to have healthy babies - and for me that means natural homebirth.  For others that means the hospital..... 

Blessings to all for happy, healthy babies and wonderful births.

~Liz

Hmm.....as for why there are people in here posting about the pros and cons of homebirth as well as the pros and cons of hospital birth:

This seemed to be the subject that the Original Poster was concerned about. She had witnessed the death of a friend's baby and was now experiencing anxiety and uncertainty about homebirth vs. hospital birth. To quote:"....I am having some anxiety about my upcoming homebirth....I know people will be saying "if she was in the hospital this never would have happened" and maybe that is true...".

So basically, it makes a lot of sense if people that favour homebirth as well as those that favour hospital births would give their input on the matter.

You mentioned that this was the homebirth forum, so this thread was not appropriate here. I'm new so I don't know but

a) is there a hospital and homebirth forum on MDC and

b) would it be possible to move this thread from here to there?

That would resolve this particular issue, I believe.

As for why people are intensely debating the subject:

There's a lot of contradictory information out there and on top of that, as you've said yourself, people have had good as well as bad personal experiences with the same kind of event. (Quote:" I have dear friends who've had them without any ill effects.  I've had others who've had terrible experiences.").

Given these circumstances, I think it takes input from several different viewpoints to make sense of things, especially if, like the OP, you're a bit on the fence on the subject.

I think that people debating stuff here are not doing it so they can one-up other people. I think people are debating, because they want to be CERTAIN that they are making good choices for themselves and their families, and you can only be sure that your choice is good, if your assumptions have been challenged and have withstood this rigorous test.

Concerning the tone:

Overall, I perceive the tone here as mostly civil (on both sides), but I'm someone who is used to straightforward, bordering on blunt communication patterns that may also include heated debate, so there might be some undertones that I don't catch. If you consider any phrase in the comments I posted as hitting the wrong notes, please let me know why and I'll go back and edit.