Unschooling 'til 6, then hit 'em with heavy stuff?

[ErinYay]

Hi!

This may seem premature, as V is only 9-months-old, but our previous plan had been to start a tot school program around 12-18 months, so maybe it's not all that early to think about this!

The more DH and I read and talk about it, the more we're leaning toward a more Euro-style of early education- let the kiddos be kids til 6-7, then really start in earnest. While we certainly don't want to put tremendous pressure on our kids, we do want to focus on establishing basics efficiently and accelerating where appropriate. We're dismayed with modern American standards of math in particular, where kids often are only in pre-algebra by 7th-8th grade- if little Greek 4th graders can do algebra properly, there doesn't seem to be a developmental reason to wait 3-4 years longer. We plan on taking advantage of the community colleges in the area for "basic" stuff, like algebra, biology, etc- I remember 99% of the 100-level college courses I took being no more difficult than high school, and sometime, middle school classes on the same things. (However, early CC for 10-12 year olds is a different thread for a different time!)

We're really drawn to classical homeschooling. Have any of you had experience, first, second, or third-hand, with unschooling youngsters instead of doing even a Montessori-based preschool/K, then switching to a more rigorous, structured style at 6-7?

While I love the idea of tot school, I'm not sure what benefit our kids will actually take from learning colors, letters, etc, in even a play-based way. It seems that bright, curious kids raised by bright, curious parents will naturally acquire the same skills, and that those half-dozen years spent in the dirt, playing, etc will benefit them more in the long run.

For those that at least follow where I'm going with this- did it work for you? How did you make the switch from "Yep, that's a wicked cool rock! I think it's got some shiny mica in it!" to "Okay, and the Latin word for "mica" is "micare," and that means what?" ("Glitter," of course!)

Thanks so much. I really enjoy lurking these boards!

[Citymomx3]

oops wrong thread

[zeldamomma]

I think what you're talking about doing is commonly called "delayed academics" and is a very old idea in the homeschooling community. Both Charlotte Mason and the Moores were proponents of delaying formal academics until a child was 7 or even older. I wouldn't call it unschooling, because unschooling is a philosophy that children will learn what they need to know when they are ready, and doesn't end at age 6. Actually many people would argue that "unschooling" before school-age doesn't make sense, because before school age, it's just parenting. That's just an FYI, I'm not trying to start a debate, just to let you know how the term is generally used.

Gently, I think your plans for age 6 seem a little intense. I know that 6 year old look huge compared to your baby, but they're still little kids, and need time to play. And I have friends whose kids are very bright, and have gotten to the college level of coursework in the early teens, and it's a huge parenting dilemma. Do you send them to college at 14?- even if they're ready for it academically, from a social/developmental/safety perspective it's not a simple choice. Do they work/travel for a few years? If so, what do you do about college transcripts?

All in all, I think that it's best to give kids greater depth and breadth, instead of pushing to get far far ahead in a handful of subjects.

[Nazsmum]

Can you see where the road takes you?

[ocelotmom]

With us, it's been more of a gradual transition - adding more academics over the course of a few years, rather than an abrupt shift at a specific age.

[Mackenzie]

I don't think that if you delay academics until 6, that is "unschooling". It's just starting a bit later. Also, I believe that the "mica" example is going to be waaaaaaay intense for a 6yo... if that was more of an intended approach than just a general example.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I think what you're talking about doing is commonly called "delayed academics" and is a very old idea in the homeschooling community. Both Charlotte Mason and the Moores were proponents of delaying formal academics until a child was 7 or even older. I wouldn't call it unschooling, because unschooling is a philosophy that children will learn what they need to know when they are ready, and doesn't end at age 6. Actually many people would argue that "unschooling" before school-age doesn't make sense, because before school age, it's just parenting. That's just an FYI, I'm not trying to start a debate, just to let you know how the term is generally used.

Gently, I think your plans for age 6 seem a little intense. I know that 6 year old look huge compared to your baby, but they're still little kids, and need time to play. And I have friends whose kids are very bright, and have gotten to the college level of coursework in the early teens, and it's a huge parenting dilemma. Do you send them to college at 14?- even if they're ready for it academically, from a social/developmental/safety perspective it's not a simple choice. Do they work/travel for a few years? If so, what do you do about college transcripts?

All in all, I think that it's best to give kids greater depth and breadth, instead of pushing to get far far ahead in a handful of subjects.

I wholeheartedly agree word for word, and it's from personal experience with my now grown son who thrived in college* - and from observation of now grown friends of his who grew up in a similar fashion - glad to see someone else articulate it all before I had to get my mind in gear.

Most people find that plans made when your child is a baby - or even when your child is older and beginning to homeschool (which wouldn't be until age 6 or 7) - will change and change and change... Even basic parenting ends up to be different from what you expect.

*Here's my article about that.
Lillian

[Arduinna]

Nodding along with what everyone else said. That isn't unschooling. zeldamomma covered it well.

[ErinYay]

Thanks, everyone!

Haha, I guess I used "unschooling" in light of the growing number of 2-3 year olds in "pre-K," but "delayed academics" is a much better term, and more accurately reflects what we might like to do. I think I'll ask my grandmothers what it was like with their kids- back in the day, everyone went to first grade, or kindy if they were in a more urban area (my family comes from very rural New England) at 6 and that was that.

Yeah, the Latin example wasn't really accurate, as we'll be following age- and skill-appropriate timelines in the classical vein. Play will always be a big deal- DH and I are both very playful adults and make a lot of time for just goofing off and having fun; but we're thinking about going more hard hitting in terms of subject matter, as opposed to instructional style/ learning environment.

I'm an admittedly obsessive planner (it helps keep me sane!) but we're also very flexible. I used to think tot school was just incredible, but we really have doubts about starting "academics" so young. As a former Montessori kid, I do like Montessori trays and the emphasis on hand-eye, so regardless of what we do, we'll have scads of activities, crafts, and toys with that tilt. And of course, we may end up with kiddos who are dying to "do school" very young, or kids who are just happy to read or color or whatever.

Lillian, thank you for sharing that! This quote from your son, who sounds like a remarkable young man is a really good way of explaining why we're interested in delaying initial structured academics, and rearranging later curriculum (for example, some kids eat geometry up but struggle with algebra, but in PS, for the most part, you can't take geometry until you've taken (and passed) algebra I, but I learned algebra in a matter of weeks in my early 20s):

Math is something I've been working on. I never concentrated on it when I was homeschooling, but you'd be surprised how much you can learn at my age in a few weeks compared to the few years it would take in your early teens - and I now find that I'm really enjoying it.

So much of it will depend on the kids- DH was a child who could absorb and retain everything, regardless of when it was presented, whereas I would have done much better if I'd been allowed to skip around- I loved (and still do) physics, but hated earth science, and wasn't permitted to take physics in high school because I could never pass earth science (due to enormous tedium and not "doing the work...").

Thanks so much!

[LuxPerpetua]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

And of course, we may end up with kiddos who are dying to "do school" very young, or kids who are just happy to read or color or whatever.

Our dd is 4.5 and we believe in delayed academics (we're Waldorf-inspired but that's not the only reason we delay). It's hard to judge whether or not a child wants to "start school" at an early age because unless they have been exposed to the concept of "school" through friends or something, how would they know? (I'm speaking for either an only child or the eldest of siblings here ...) Our dd seems to be pretty gifted academically, and yet I see no point in pushing her into academics early. I don't discourage those that she discovers on her own, but we don't sit down and do workbooks or anything. I just feel very strongly that at this age she just needs to experience life and run and play. She would probably enjoy workbooks--so it isn't a matter of lack of interest but rather that I, as the one who makes the decisions on her behalf have purposefully avoided these (and same with computer, TV, etc.). We plan on gently introducing lessons around age 6.5-7 and then increasing their academic rigor when she seems ready. Learning is so rich and so intertwined with life that academics are just a small part anyway.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

Lillian, thank you for sharing that! This quote from your son, who sounds like a remarkable young man is a really good way of explaining why we're interested in delaying initial structured academics, and rearranging later curriculum (for example, some kids eat geometry up but struggle with algebra, but in PS, for the most part, you can't take geometry until you've taken (and passed) algebra I, but I learned algebra in a matter of weeks in my early 20s):

That reminds me about a story he told me when he was in college. He said some friends in the dorm were Googling friends for fun one night when they ran across that article (it used to have his name listed in it), and they were going around telling everyone about that line and laughing hysterically about how he'd been on the Internet "bragging about being smarter than little kids." I didn't get it - he had to explain it to me - but what was funny to them was that it's so obvious to college kids that it's infinitely easier for someone in his late teens to quickly pick up math than for someone much younger. I'd been around so many parents of young children worrying about math, that I'd forgotten how obvious it is to people who've already been there Lillian

[elizawill]

we did something along these lines with both kids, although i don't consider it unschooling. with both children though, we did not do any sort of academics until my daughter was a few weeks shy of 6 & my son was 5 1/2. to me this seems very normal and appropriate, but nowadays there is such a strong emphasis on learning much younger, that i found myself being a bit odd in this regard. we didn't do anything "hard core" though, but simply used our kindergarten year as a time of transition, introducing some academics alongside playtime. my children learned to write their names in kindergarten, we reviewed colors, numbers, basic counting, introduction to writing letters, etc. it was very gentle, but still academic in nature in the sense that i did have objectives and goals in place. now i will say honestly, they were "behind" compared to other kindergarteners in our area, but i feel the public school academic standards are too rigorous personally. i chose to teach my kids along the same timeline in which i learned. i was in kindergarten in 1976 & it was play based and merely a transitional period. my daughter is almost 9 and in 3rd grade now & she's just about caught up in every subject area. i know if she were in public school, she'd be fine. by the end of next year i imagine she'll begin to surpass her public school peers...definitely by middle school she'll be off the charts in comparison. anyway. my point is, i don't feel waiting is really delaying at all, because my personal opinion is that everyone else is just starting too soon. in the end, i don't think it makes a difference & there is no advantage to be had with starting sooner.

[crunchy_mama]

We did this in a way as well. Last year at 5 we started kind of schooling but that consisted of lots and lots of read-alouds and playing games. We tried handwriting but he wasn't ready for it so we dropped it. In the last few months something has changed and he is now ready and even though we hadn't done handwriting in months he had progressed leaps and bounds. So, now he is 6 and we have started in officially schooling- still not doing workbook kind of things- more classical CM based.

We are loving it and it is working well. I am glad I let him wait until he was ready and we enjoyed so much time reading good books together. I am glad I waited until he was ready for writing instead of stressing about it. I think building the foundations with lots of read-alouds of quality books was important in many ways though.

[lmonter]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

I'm an admittedly obsessive planner (it helps keep me sane!) but we're also very flexible. I used to think tot school was just incredible, but we really have doubts about starting "academics" so young. As a former Montessori kid, I do like Montessori trays and the emphasis on hand-eye, so regardless of what we do, we'll have scads of activities, crafts, and toys with that tilt. And of course, we may end up with kiddos who are dying to "do school" very young, or kids who are just happy to read or color or whatever.

I have a tendency to try to plan things out. Luckily, I use that kind of thing as more of a guide than something totally set in stone. And completely reserve my right to change my mind/curriculum/whatever at any point if need be.

I've been a bit of a fan of unschooling so to speak, but now that my oldest is 6yo (7yo in a few weeks), he and I both needed something a bit more structured, otherwise we'd just goof off and bake cookies and draw with sidewalk chalk on the driveway. With the boxed curriculum we picked out, we do a little school every day, and I feel accomplished (and he begs to do school most of the time because we keep it fun!). We still bake cookies and go through lots of sidewalk chalk though.

Oh, my point. I've seen/known some folks that do a preschool coop or the Tot School stuff, but even my analness had trouble with that. In their younger years, doing anything organized with my kids is like herding cats. For us it's just been better to have pattern blocks on hand, let them pick out books at the library, whatever. They learn enough from the rest of us in the house in the under 6 year age bracket.

[JessicaS]

I agree that is just delaying school.


Latin is fun and useful but we are classical homeschoolers. There is a lot of available Latin curriculum that would help when you reach that point. I think six is a bit young, I think most start that around third grade. Latin is my dd's favorite, but she wants to be a Linguist (or a Scientist or a Singer or a Fashion Designer) when she grows up.

If you are interested in classical homeschooling you might take a look at the Well Trained Mind materials. You can check them out from the library. There are books that list recommend skills per age. It might really help you come up with an appropriate idea so you can create a plan without overwhelming your child.

[lach]

I am a "heavy stuff" fan, and it doesn't even sound much like delaying academics to me. The Well-Trained Mind, which is about as heavy as it gets, doesn't really start academics until 1st grade either, except for reading which they tell you to get squared away before then. But even still, the first year or two of materials written by then are designed to be used as read-allouds if needed, so it's not like it's a requirement that your kid can read before 1st grade under their system.

I'm a planner, like you, and I've been planning to homeschool my kids since before I even had kids! I applaud you for planning. I guess my only advice is not to become married to any particular plan, and not to spread your plans too far and wide unless you're okay with backtracking So much can happen between now and then. What I would do now is to read everything you can find about homeschooling and see what appeals to you.

[Ravin]

Take a look at The Latin-Centered Curriculum. I know people who use that approach in a laid-back fashion, and it readily accomodates delaying formal academics. For us, the only formal stuff we did any of in K was a smattering of math and some phonics, mostly driven by DD's interest. In first (she turned 6 in October of first) we got more formal, but our formal stuff even now in second only takes a couple of hours a day, and includes a lot of hands-on activities. It seemed right to ease her into it gradually. By third what we'll be doing will likely involve a core of "rigorous" subjects (math, language) and a fair amount of child's interest driven padding around it (science and history topics, etc.)

[ErinYay]

Wow, so much great info!

We've ordered the Moore's books and I'm really looking forward to reading them!

Now here's an even more over-planning/over-thinking question:

Does delayed academics work for gifted kids? While V is amazing and remarkable, she's just a baby, and has yet to do anything to really blow our socks off. That said, DH and I were both assessed to be gifted, and our extended families have many people who are very, very bright. V's half sister is profoundly gifted, with all the ups and downs associated with her level of innate intelligence, so we have at least a genetic basis to think she might be at least "bright."

For a young child who is blow-out-the-lights smart, temperament and personality dependent, of course, would delayed academics be a poor choice?

[naturegirl7]

Okay this may get long - but I will try to answer your last question from my own personal experiences.

I don't think delayed academics would be or is bad for "bright" kids.

We did more of an "unschooling" or child led approach here until recently when we started K. I prefer Child Led. We did not purposely "teach" anything - like no work books, flash cards, programs. But we did have lots of teachable moments every single day and took advantage of them. I provided lots of books, toys, art stuff, adventures, etc that encouraged teachable moments too. As he showed interest in something, we fed that interest as much as we possibly could.

Now that he is in K, I am attempting a little bit more structure to what he learns and did purchase a few curriculums to loosely use - still very eclectic and made to order though. My son would probably continue to thrive and excel in an unschooly environment, but I have reached a point where I feel like I need the structure and he needs the challenge - it is still incredibly child led, but with a definite classical inspiration.

My DS is bright - like staring into the sun sometimes bright. LOL Recently he was eval'd for speech services and they were blown away by him and wanted to test him now - I am holding off until he is a little older though. I KNOW he is smart, and don't need a test to tell me that at this point. Nor will it help with the emotional aspects of his personality either.

To give you an idea - He taught himself to read around 2.5yo. I do mean that literally. We thought at first that he'd memorized the books, until he started reading aloud brand new books at the store! He is 5 but picks out stuff for himself that is atleast 3-5 grade, often higher - especially in reading. He enjoys reading my husbands college level cross section A&P textbooks. He enjoys watch documentaries on ancient cultures, the origin of the universe, anything nature like Blue Planet, Life, etc and is obsessed with the Stephen Hawkings series. Not "normal" 5yo, Kindy material right?! LOL But he enjoys it, he absorbs it, and he retains it.
This past weekend we were at the Kennedy Space Center and his question for the astronaut we met was about light speed shape ships and travelling to alien galaxies to find other life. WHAT?! The other elem school aged kids are asking about how do you pee in space and what does the food taste like. He wants to know NASA's current plans for light speed space ships! DH and I often just look at each other in awe and amusement over things that he says/does.

So yeah, I think delayed academics can work out just fine for bright kiddos!
I think it may even be better for them in terms of emotional development. Sure if I pushed DS he'd "know" more facts right now - but how much would he enjoy learning? ANd how much would he interalized?? You mention your step child in a way that I think you get where I am going with this? Plus he is already reading at a high school level - so we won't worry about spelling flash cards or anythign like that. I think the vocab and spelling will just fall into place. Why stress him and us out over it? He will put enough stress on himself over schoolwork.

The biggest thing is to just follow their led - whether it be a light speed course or a slow and steady course. Just let them lead. When they show interest in something - feed that fire!!! We provide books, games, activities, talks, field trips, etc on whatever his latest obsession is until he is "full" and decides to move on. MY biggest concern is that he LOVE learning, that he be able to be self directed in his learning, and that it be FUN. And for me learning is not the same as academics. Part of what I like about homeschooling is we can work at his pace - devouring info or perhaps parking at Egypt for 3 months to devour vast quantities of info. I like that there is not such thing as "grade level" here at home. I like that we don't even plan on using grades.

I was classified as gifted myself as a young child - and he is way beyond where I ever was. But I also had/have alot of the emotional issues and perfectionism issues that go along with it. I don't want DS to have that. He already pushes himself really hard and is a perfectionist. I think that making academics the focus super early for "gifted" kids just makes that perfectionism and emotional aspect even worse. Let them be kids too. Let them learn that it is okay to fail sometimes. Let them know they are so much more than "the smart kid."

We have people ask all the time - what have you done with him to make him so smart? Ummm, not vaxed, BF for years, green and organic living, cosleeping, babywearing? I really do think that APing has something to do with it, cuz he is so secure that he is free to explore and learn - starting VERY young. Also I believe that the biggest factor was us reading to him from before birth. His first lovey was a book. Books are still his most prized possessions. Limit TV and junky toys. Provide lots of books, puzzles, educational and open ended and creative toys - and just PLAY! Kids learn best thru play!! Even now art time and creative play time are a very large part of our school day.

Anyways, that is my personal experience - Hope it helps!