I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended) - Page 11

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Dar

Part of the definition of a lie is having the intent to deceive. If someone is saying that she thinks a kid will be fine and truly believes this, then it's not a lie.

Do you think unschoolers are intending to deceive someone (lying), or are sometimes wrong? I think these are two different things.

I think that many unschoolers are so intent on their philosophy being *right* that they ignore evidence that it really doesn't work out for all children. I think if they actually heard what the OPer and others have said in this thread, it would temper what they say to others.

If you continue to be told the truth (that this does not work out well for all children, that it can mask LDs, that circumstances changing can be traumatic for a child, that some children have great difficulty catching up) then you at some point, it isn't just being wrong. It's lying, may be yourself first and then to others.

[4evermom]

Wow. For all this emphasis on reading and writing skills, it's impressive how some people read things that were never written and others don't read what has been written... I really think I write pretty clearly but please disillusion me so I can blame my schooling.

I'll just add my 2 cents to this nice post.

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

Most of those things aren't really relevant to a 9 year-old's life and in the OP's place I wouldn't want my child (who's the same age) to put his name on an online message board.

My ds really hasn't come across something where he needs to sign his name.

I have actually had that thought about message boards. I'm glad my ds wasn't more adept at some things at a younger age before he understood the need for caution when sharing information with his online "friends". I remember threads with people being concerned about their young children telling strangers their complete name, address, and telephone number.

My ds did have his phone number memorized at a pretty young age simply because I let the answering machine screen our calls so he was always hearing "you have reached 123-456-7890." But he still asks me for the numbers because he doesn't like to make avoidable mistakes. So it is quite possible that he could spell his first name just fine if necessary. He has known his parents' full names as well as his own although he couldn't spell them since he was a young toddler. I think the police could have worked with that, especially since we are the only people with the names on this continent (hence, my appreciation of his not sharing with his online friends).

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

4evermom's son does sign cards, etc., but asks for help to spell his name. So what? You can't draw dire conclusions from that one bit of information. My son has two shortened forms (one french, one american) of his name he knows how to write, but not his full 11 letter name. He's never had the need or desire. I'm sure he'd be able to quickly learn it, he memorizes phone numbers easily, it's not the same as a kid who's been working at it for awhile and still can't do it.

My ds could absolutely write a 3 letter nickname and his last initial. But we don't call him by a nickname so that isn't really writing his name in my book. And yes, he needs help with spelling his 18 letter name simply because he doesn't have it memorized.

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

Do you really think this child is going to enter adulthood not writing his name? My guess is he'll be doing it within a year or so. Also, a kid can do plenty of stuff that doesn't require adult assistance and still ask for help writing his name. You're taking one thing and applying it to all areas of the kid's life!

Yup, I'll be surprised if he isn't confident enough to write his name without asking me "what's next?" within the next year. Or maybe he'll only be able to write his online user name!
(And then he can change his legal name to that when he turns 18 so he can finally get a library card... Oh wait, even I didn't need to write my name to get my library card. Nevermind, we're golden )

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

OK, admit it 4evermom, this is exactly your plan, isn't it? Or is your computer not in the living room? And your refusal to discuss your son's interests with him has been exposed now too.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by waiflywaif

I'm curious if people who don't see this as a problem right now have some age cutoff at which they would consider it a problem. For some in this thread, not doing it at 9 is an issue. For those that don't agree, when does a kid need to know to write his name? Because all those things (mostly staying home, not writing cards, etc) that are pointed to as examples as why he doesn't need to could continue well into the teenage years.

A kid needs to write his name when it becomes relevant to them. DD is 8, and she hasn't had this need yet. She knows how to write her first name, but not the last name (hyphenated, 18 letters ). Telling her, "Come, learn to spell your last name," would be pretty out of context. I can't imagine a situation where she'd need it. And when she does, I'm certain that she'll master the skill easily. Why wouldn't she? And if this happens when she is a teenager? I don't see this as a problem. Not needing to write one's name is not an indicator of poor life quality. A lot depends on life style and personality.

At some point there will be a "fill out this form" or "put your name on the name tag," and I can hardly imagine the anxiety in an older kid who struggles with that while everyone else around doesn't.

[/QUOTE]

If a child learns to write his name at an older age, this doesn't mean that the child will struggle when the need arises. Unschooled children are no raised t in a vacuum, with no parental involvement. Parents tend to talk to their children and discuss things, and help them think ahead. When my DD was taking a summer camp for the first time this summer, I envisioned an opportunity of her potentially needing to write her first name. We talked about it, she practiced for a couple of minutes to make sure her letters were sufficiently small, and she was fine. That would have been her first "need" to write her first name in an outside of the home setting. Turns out, the kids didn't have to write their names after all.

[hotmamacita]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970

What I really think happened to the OP (since she does not seem to be coming back to clarify) is that the school is using her child to make an example to other parents to try to scare them out of homeschooling. It commonly happens here. No matter how far ahead your child is, the public schools will tell parents that the homeschooled child is years behind and must go back grade levels. I have seen kids who did Well Trained Mind and knew Latin and were put back 2-3 grade levels. This is in the Dallas Texas area. That is just what a lot of public schools do.

I really really think that this is all that happened. I bet if the OP looked at what the 3rd graders really can do, she would find her child is not behind at all and the public school is full of bigoted staff who are using her daughter to try to lash out at homeschoolers to scare others from homeschooling.

That is a really good point.

[hotmamacita]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I think that many unschoolers are so intent on their philosophy being *right* that they ignore evidence that it really doesn't work out for all children. I think if they actually heard what the OPer and others have said in this thread, it would temper what they say to others.

If you continue to be told the truth (that this does not work out well for all children, that it can mask LDs, that circumstances changing can be traumatic for a child, that some children have great difficulty catching up) then you at some point, it isn't just being wrong. It's lying, may be yourself first and then to others.

I do not feel qualified to speak for or as an unschooler. We impliment unschooling principals but also feel free to deviate from parts of any educational/philosophical ideologies that may not truly be what we want for our children and/or what they want/need. I do wish the public school system would look at some of the wisdom and fruit that unschooling and/or homeschooling has to offer. I think we could revamp our current educational system to really foster and inculcate intellectual discourse, reasoning and research in students. I'll spare you my full opinion and thoughts on how many public school systems needs to change.

I want to add, however, that I went through the public school system and I can say that when I was in college, I definately felt lied to, deceived, and poorly educated by the public school systems I attended (K-12).

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by hotmamacita

That is a really good point.

It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility when you take into account that my "not writing his name" ds did just fine on the 3rd grade standardized test, and he's young for his grade having just made the cut off by a few days.

[jeminijad]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

And why is that such a necessary skill for a 9 yo who doesn't need to write his name at the top of all his worksheets and tests so the teacher can grade them? He isn't in a group situation where he needs to label his possessions. He hasn't once in his life come across a situation where he needed to write his name. It is not yet a priority. And it's a pretty narrow minded view that the only conceivable scenario for a child not writing his name is a severe learning disability.

A 9 year old who cannot read basic words is at a disadvantage.

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom? Maybe they can recognize these things by other cues, if they've been shown... but maybe not. And he might very well be called upon to write his name, in that situation.

[myjo]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970
What I really think happened to the OP (since she does not seem to be coming back to clarify) is that the school is using her child to make an example to other parents to try to scare them out of homeschooling. It commonly happens here. No matter how far ahead your child is, the public schools will tell parents that the homeschooled child is years behind and must go back grade levels. I have seen kids who did Well Trained Mind and knew Latin and were put back 2-3 grade levels. This is in the Dallas Texas area. That is just what a lot of public schools do.

I really really think that this is all that happened. I bet if the OP looked at what the 3rd graders really can do, she would find her child is not behind at all and the public school is full of bigoted staff who are using her daughter to try to lash out at homeschoolers to scare others from homeschooling.

I know this might sound far fetched to some of you, but it's not. Especially in Texas. I'm sure it doesn't happen everywhere, but in places where homeschooling is not as common, or people's attitudes tend to be more conventional and less accepting, yes it can happen.

We aren't in Texas, but we live in an area where the demographics are very similar to those in Texas. I think that may be what happened to my ds, though not in such a dramatic way. They really do use it as an opportunity to tear homeschooling down.

A 9 year old who cannot read basic words is at a disadvantage.

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom? Maybe they can recognize these things by other cues, if they've been shown... but maybe not. And he might very well be called upon to write his name, in that situation.

True. Reading is freedom. Illiteracy is an uncomfortable state to be in for a kid who is at an age where they are beginning to want to do lots of things for themselves. That's what I would tell my kids when they didn't want to do their reading practice. There are just too many things they cannot do independently when they can't read fluently. I would also worry about it becoming an embarrassment to them.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility when you take into account that my "not writing his name" ds did just fine on the 3rd grade standardized test, and he's young for his grade having just made the cut off by a few days.

My dd also took the pssas this past spring. I am pretty sure the very first thing she had to do was fill in her name, first and last.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by jeminijad

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom?

I don't know what things are like where you live, but where I live none of these things are identified by words -- rather, they're picked out almost entirely by visual recognition of symbols/icons and appearance. For good reason: a not-insignificant portion of the adult world is illiterate. I would think it highly unlikely that you could find even an illiterate 9-year-old boy who could not recognize a police car or a telephone.

At any rate I'm not sure that 4evermom's 9-year-old is not yet reading. Only that perfectionist that he is he's not willing to make mistakes writing his long full name and hasn't yet been in a situation where he's had to master this skill.

Miranda

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by jeminijad

A 9 year old who cannot read basic words is at a disadvantage.

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom? Maybe they can recognize these things by other cues, if they've been shown... but maybe not. And he might very well be called upon to write his name, in that situation.

4evermom's son is reading pretty well, I believe. My son (same age) isn't really reading (he can sound out short words that are spelled phonetically a la bob books and get around computer games by recognizing words but he's not really reading them) but he could easily find all those things. He can quickly figure out what a lot of signs and things say both by looking at the start of the words and considering the context. It's not because he isn't reading independently that he couldn't handle being separated from me or my husband in a public place, it's happened before and sometimes done intentionally as he's a pretty independent guy.

[lalaland42]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

My ds could absolutely write a 3 letter nickname and his last initial. But we don't call him by a nickname so that isn't really writing his name in my book. And yes, he needs help with spelling his 18 letter name simply because he doesn't have it memorized.

Just to clarify, is his first name 18 letters or his full name? I am just curious what an 18 letter first name could possibly be.

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

My dd also took the pssas this past spring. I am pretty sure the very first thing she had to do was fill in her name, first and last.

And...? I doubt that part of the test is graded, the name spaces are presumably to know who took the test.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

My dd also took the pssas this past spring. I am pretty sure the very first thing she had to do was fill in her name, first and last.

My ds took a different standardized test.

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

4evermom's son is reading pretty well, I believe.

Yes, he is reading quite nicely now. He is overwhelmed by a whole page of text but is fine with sentences and short paragraphs. But I was pretty darn amazed when he was preliterate at how well he navigated around a big city on public transportation. He actually did better than I, at times, because I was busy trying to read all the signs whereas he took his clues from other sources. (And I must note that I am a very speedy reader, not standing there "sounding it out." )

Originally Posted by lalaland42

Just to clarify, is his first name 18 letters or his full name? I am just curious what an 18 letter first name could possibly be.

First and last, lol. Fortunately, he has a short middle name with only 5 letters in addition to that.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

I've read this whole thread and it's kind of off on a tangent from where it was, but i just wanted to offer the OP a and tell you not to beat yourself up too much. A lot of the other boards here repeat "when you know better you do better" - that goes for everything from circumcision to schooling choices. You did what you thought was right, you realised it wasn't the best decision, you're rectifying it. The way you are handling it all will teach your DD so much about how to cope with shocks, setbacks, disappointments and massive challenges, and i think you should be proud of that.

This.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

At any rate I'm not sure that 4evermom's 9-year-old is not yet reading. Only that perfectionist that he is he's not willing to make mistakes writing his long full name and hasn't yet been in a situation where he's had to master this skill.

Right. I'd certainly worry if he wanted to write his name, if he was trying to write his name unsuccessfully, and if he were frustrated about it. I seriously don't think it would take him more than a day to have it down pat IF he were interested. Meanwhile, we are pleased with all the other wonderful things he is mastering.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

My dd also took the pssas this past spring. I am pretty sure the very first thing she had to do was fill in her name, first and last.

Oh, the funny thing I always ran into on standardized tests was that there weren't enough little squares to write my name anyway. And my childhood name only had 16 letters, first and last.

[rhiandmoi]

I think in these discussions that invariably turn to "that situation hasn't come up yet" rallies a certain chasm between world views becomes apparent. I like to frame it as small vs large world. A small world is familiar and cozy - like a snuggly cocoon. In a small world, you don't usually need to know how to calculate a quadratic equation, or where Beirut is, or how the Crusades affect current global politics. You need to know how to grow vegetables, which bugs are friends and foes, how to cross the street, what plants are safe to eat, etc. Some families only live in the small world - by choice or circumstance - teaching skills and information pertinent to their situation, and not bring in the influences of the outside world for various reasons. From an unschooling perspective, this seems to manifest in a "let life find you" philosophy. If a situation requiring a child to write out their whole name doesn't happen until they are 11, so be it.

Other families take more of "go out and find life" approach. Sometimes this can appear more parent led, if a child is not naturally curious about the larger world, because the parent will be introducing a larger and larger world. But parent led can still be "natural learning"/unschooling. For a family like this, if the aforementioned name writing situation hadn't organically occurred by say age 5 or 6, that family might seek out that opportunity or even invent it.

Of course, most people aren't going to wholly be in one camp or the other, and are going to shelter their kids from something things and push and engage them in others. I think it comes down to, what is the minimum that a child ought to know before being turned loose in the world?

I work with a lot of people who are almost completely illiterate, can only do basic math, and have no concern or awareness of the world outside of their small town, other than perhaps to hear the news of other small towns that they originate from. But, they're really nice people, and they work hard and are usually able to provide food and shelter to their families. So that really sets the bar pretty low as far as minimum life skills.

I myself, would not choose to live in such a small world, but I see on a daily basis that is possible to have happiness and fulfillment in one. And if you are keeping your world small by choice, you can choose to keep it a little bigger than that and at least be literate and read the newspaper.

But, realistically - while being illiterate is not ideal for any adult living in the 1st world - millions of people make do. So I am sure most of the skills the privileged classes consider essential life skills (higher math, science, etc), really are not. Yes, they do give you more opportunities, open more doors, etc. But that doesn't make them essential.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by lalaland42

Well my then 4 year old had to write her name on her residency permit when we immigrated in front of immigration officials.

What if she couldn't? I've known lots of 4 year olds who could print their own names, but I've also known quite a few who couldn't. (DS1 and dd1 could both do so at 4, but ds2 couldn't. Well, he could at 4, but not until a few months before he turned 5.)

Honestly, I am shocked your DS never went through a him-branded-everything phase. DD loves seeing her name and writing it on everything. I thought that was pretty universal. Signs on the door of their room telling mom to keep out? I just thought the egocentric name thing was a part of the self-identity at the age of 2, 3, 4...

DD1 is the only one of mine who has been like that, and it wasn't to a huge degree. The boys both like(d) to see their names on things (getting mail with their name on it was a huge thrill), but neither of them has ever been terribly into putting their names on stuff. Actually, neither of them particularly liked to print/write. DS1 doesn't mind it these days, but he's 17! DS2 just doesn't like it. OTOH, dd1 was trying to print, before she had any idea what printing is...tiny, precise little "squiggles" on things from about 11-12 months on.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

If you continue to be told the truth (that this does not work out well for all children, that it can mask LDs, that circumstances changing can be traumatic for a child, that some children have great difficulty catching up) then you at some point, it isn't just being wrong.

Anything can mask LDs. I have a nephew who was in 4th grade, in public school. His report cards were fine. When his step-sister started kindergarten, his behaviour became really strange, and he started acting out a lot. After several weeks of trying to figure out what was wrong with him, it was discovered that he couldn't read. He could print his name, and a few other things, but his step-sister was reading at a higher level than he was. He needed help, and he needed it badly, and nobody had noticed. There was no sign of trouble in his report cards and his parents completely missed it. If he'd been unschooling, a lot of people would blame the unschooling...but it happened in school.

I definitely agree that it can be worth checking into things if a child isn't reading or writing. But, the 9 year old who can't/won't print his name was described as being very perfectionistic. That can be an incredible obstacle and is one of dd1's blocks to reading, as well.