Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Education › Learning at Home and Beyond › I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended)
New Posts  All Forums:
 

I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended) - Page 12

post #221 of 455
9/15/10 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post
A 9 year old who cannot read basic words is at a disadvantage.

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom? Maybe they can recognize these things by other cues, if they've been shown... but maybe not. And he might very well be called upon to write his name, in that situation.
I agree that a 9 year old who can't read basic words is at a disadvantage, however 1) nobody ever said the 9 year old in question can't read basic words, and 2) I don't think the examples you've cited really apply - I can't even remember the last time I saw a restroom that actually had the word "restroom" on the sign, for example. And, dd1 and ds2 (neither of whom were reading at all at the time) both identified our police station when we drove by it one day, because it was the building with all the police cars parked outside. Words aren't the only way we encode information.

You may also like:

Sitting or Squatting: What's Really Best in the Bathroom?
There Is Not Always a "Fix" For the Difficult Child
10 Things You Don't Need For a New Baby
post #222 of 455
9/15/10 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
After several weeks of trying to figure out what was wrong with him, it was discovered that he couldn't read.... If he'd been unschooling, a lot of people would blame the unschooling...but it happened in school.
if he'd been unschooling and the mother had posted here that he couldn't read, the advice would be to relax a give him more time. Instead, it sounds like the parents and school are trying to get to the root of the problem and help the child.

In school when there is a red flag for a problem, action is taken.

With unschooling, parents are encouraged to ignore red flags.
post #223 of 455
9/15/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
What if she couldn't? I've known lots of 4 year olds who could print their own names, but I've also known quite a few who couldn't. (DS1 and dd1 could both do so at 4, but ds2 couldn't. Well, he could at 4, but not until a few months before he turned 5.)
At 4 it wouldn't have been a big issue, the permit would have been blank. I was just giving an example of where the issue of signing your name might come up. If DD was 9 and couldn't sign it, it would have been a big issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
DD1 is the only one of mine who has been like that, and it wasn't to a huge degree. The boys both like(d) to see their names on things (getting mail with their name on it was a huge thrill), but neither of them has ever been terribly into putting their names on stuff. Actually, neither of them particularly liked to print/write. DS1 doesn't mind it these days, but he's 17! DS2 just doesn't like it. OTOH, dd1 was trying to print, before she had any idea what printing is...tiny, precise little "squiggles" on things from about 11-12 months on.
Good to know since most of the kids I know are all about themselves and their name at some point.
post #224 of 455
9/15/10 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I think that many unschoolers are so intent on their philosophy being *right* that they ignore evidence that it really doesn't work out for all children. I think if they actually heard what the OPer and others have said in this thread, it would temper what they say to others.

If you continue to be told the truth (that this does not work out well for all children, that it can mask LDs, that circumstances changing can be traumatic for a child, that some children have great difficulty catching up) then you at some point, it isn't just being wrong. It's lying, may be yourself first and then to others.
Right. The OP is far from the only one who has come into these forums reporting serious problems with an unschooled child not being able to catch up when it was necessary and desired. If it weren't against the UA, I'd provide links.

But these examples don't seem to get factored in to the advice given to the *next* person who comes in worrying that unschooling may not be enough - that person still gets assured that "it's easy for unschoolers to catch up when they want to."

In this thread, we've had at least one adult who was unschooled complain that she had serious educational deficits which made college very difficult for her. The only response she got was that she really must have been better off compared to schooled students - she just didn't realize it.

Is anyone making a note to tell the next person worrying about college "Well, many unschoolers do well in college, but ~Heyokha~ had a terrible time and felt she lacked basic preparation, so you definitely can't count on doing well"? Or will her experience be discounted and unschooling presented as no bar to college success?
post #225 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
if he'd been unschooling and the mother had posted here that he couldn't read, the advice would be to relax a give him more time. Instead, it sounds like the parents and school are trying to get to the root of the problem and help the child.
The child is now 21. The school didn't do very much, actually, and mostly because the mom raised supreme.

Quote:
In school when there is a red flag for a problem, action is taken.
In school, the red flag was completely missed. Yes, the parents missed it, too, but he had a series of report cards, for four years that completely failed to indicate any issue. We had a similar issue, when we realized that my then 5th grade son, who had been getting As in math for over a year (they switch to letter grade for 4th grade), didn't know his times tables. (And, yes, we should have caught it, but he was getting As, and that was right around the time we had dd1, and there was a lot going on. I felt like crap.)

Quote:
With unschooling, parents are encouraged to ignore red flags.
hmm...I haven't seen much of that, honestly. I've seen some, but not very much.
post #226 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
The child is now 21. The school didn't do very much, actually, and mostly because the mom raised supreme.


In school, the red flag was completely missed. Yes, the parents missed it, too, but he had a series of report cards, for four years that completely failed to indicate any issue. We had a similar issue, when we realized that my then 5th grade son, who had been getting As in math for over a year (they switch to letter grade for 4th grade), didn't know his times tables. (And, yes, we should have caught it, but he was getting As, and that was right around the time we had dd1, and there was a lot going on. I felt like crap.)


hmm...I haven't seen much of that, honestly. I've seen some, but not very much.

I just wanted to note here that public schools have changed dramaticly since IDEA was put into place, even in the last 5 yrs things changed. The state of Ohio was sued by a group of parents and has since introduced "child find" which mandates all public schools within the state to seek out and provide services to any child 3 yrs old and above..it is possible that the 4th grader in your example fell under old laws which were not as demanding on the public schools.
post #227 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:28pm
I don't believe unschoolers are told to ignore red flags. For me, I chose to wait and watch, and see if age/maturation/development helped the child or if something else was going on. I saw the red flag and still chose to err on the side of, "maybe she just isn't ready." I don't feel it hurt in my child, she is catching up fairly quickly and should be on grade level by the end of school year. In fact, waiting and meeting her learning needs in other ways, helped to keep her moving forward.
It is always hard to know what "could have been."

We could play the could have/should have game all day. We try to make the best choice based on the current understanding and information. Sometimes we makes mistakes.
post #228 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
Right. The OP is far from the only one who has come into these forums reporting serious problems with an unschooled child not being able to catch up when it was necessary and desired. If it weren't against the UA, I'd provide links.

But these examples don't seem to get factored in to the advice given to the *next* person who comes in worrying that unschooling may not be enough - that person still gets assured that "it's easy for unschoolers to catch up when they want to."

In this thread, we've had at least one adult who was unschooled complain that she had serious educational deficits which made college very difficult for her. The only response she got was that she really must have been better off compared to schooled students - she just didn't realize it.

Is anyone making a note to tell the next person worrying about college "Well, many unschoolers do well in college, but ~Heyokha~ had a terrible time and felt she lacked basic preparation, so you definitely can't count on doing well"? Or will her experience be discounted and unschooling presented as no bar to college success?
I agree. That is why it is really really important for stories like hers and the op's and mine and others have posted come to light. Parents new to the unschooling philosophy need to be aware that there is another side to it, and not always the bliss they imagine.
post #229 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
Right. The OP is far from the only one who has come into these forums reporting serious problems with an unschooled child not being able to catch up when it was necessary and desired. If it weren't against the UA, I'd provide links.

But these examples don't seem to get factored in to the advice given to the *next* person who comes in worrying that unschooling may not be enough - that person still gets assured that "it's easy for unschoolers to catch up when they want to."

In this thread, we've had at least one adult who was unschooled complain that she had serious educational deficits which made college very difficult for her. The only response she got was that she really must have been better off compared to schooled students - she just didn't realize it.

Is anyone making a note to tell the next person worrying about college "Well, many unschoolers do well in college, but ~Heyokha~ had a terrible time and felt she lacked basic preparation, so you definitely can't count on doing well"? Or will her experience be discounted and unschooling presented as no bar to college success?
There's a lot of denial happening, which is understandable when people are defensive. In a similar fashion, I've been a little disturbed by some suggestions to the OP that discount or deny her own experience. There have been suggestions that the school is wrong, she is wrong and her child isn't actually delayed at all - that the school has a nefarious reason behind the assessment of the child's academic level. I realize that these posters are trying to be supportive and encouraging, but I question how helpful it is. When someone has been through a traumatic experience, they don't need to hear a denial of that experience. The underlying message insinuates that the OP lacks knowledge and judgement about her own situation. The OP knows her own children, and I'd err on the side of trusting that she and her husband (who is training to be an elementary school teacher and presumably has informed insight) have an accurate assessment of the situation.
post #230 of 455
9/15/10 at 3:57pm
I would like to say thanks for this thread, and OP, .

I never seriously considered unschooling because, well, I like school. However, there was always this draw... what if a child could learn everything without pressure? Waiting to pee during math? Experiencing that first "C" or "F"?

What this has convinced me, because it's been so in-depth, is that "unschooling" is actually just another way of schooling. There's less pressure, but you do provide experiences and you do expect some progress.

For example, there are a lot of cases on her of eight and nine year olds not reading being debated, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that illiterate eleven and twelve year olds will eventually "just get it" because we know that most children at that age should be developmentally ready. Their brains are developed enough, so if they aren't reading, it's a question of motivation or (more likely) a learning disability.

Likewise, everyone seems to expect "un"schoolers to take their children to museums, field trips, discuss math daily with them. Which is awesome. Don't get me wrong.

But to me, that's really just experiential learning. Learning standing up.

If you have specific milestones, it doesn't matter how relaxed they may be. Suppose you're taking the latest age for reading, the latest age any country introduces math, etc. etc. Or perhaps you're going from a psych textbook that outlines when most children can physically understand these concepts (brain matter finally arrived ). They are still standards.

If you are actively providing exercises (however "real life" they may be, the fact is, you can just go out and buy a muffin... check out a book on tape... sign a scribble... people get through life without basic math or reading all the time, though not easily or happily, so really, these exercises are still exercises)--then you are educating that child, "schooling" them, so to speak.

Perhaps what the OP and others are misled by is the whole "un" thing. To me, that means "not" and that means,

Quote:
schooling |ˈskoōli ng | |ˈskulɪŋ| |ˈskuːlɪŋ|
noun
education or training received, esp. at school : his parents paid for his schooling.
No education or training received. Unschooling. No education. Anyway that's what turned me off. But it may also turn some people ON to it.

Don't let me re-name your movement, though. I just think it's fascinating how the most successful, happy, confident unschoolers actually do a lot of... what I would call schooling. But for a specific type of child, that likes hands-on learning.

I do think the off-hours thing for museums is a huge plus. But then, there's always Sunday mornings and Friday nights.
post #231 of 455
9/15/10 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
Right. The OP is far from the only one who has come into these forums reporting serious problems with an unschooled child not being able to catch up when it was necessary and desired.
.....

But these examples don't seem to get factored in to the advice given to the *next* person who comes in worrying that unschooling may not be enough - that person still gets assured that "it's easy for unschoolers to catch up when they want to."
exactly, which is why I don't think the word "lying" is too strong. It's one thing to say something when you have cause to believe it's true, but when you've been told over and over again that sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not, but you just keep saying it anyway, there is a serious disconnect.

Lying? Denial? Believing that other parents are idiots, just didn't do it right, or are complete wrong about what is going on with their children?

When unschoolers who had things go well say how things worked out for their child, I take them at face value. This does not seem to flow both ways. Just read back through this thread for many, many examples of this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post
There's a lot of denial happening, which is understandable when people are defensive. In a similar fashion, I've been a little disturbed by some suggestions to the OP that discount or deny her own experience
....

The underlying message insinuates that the OP lacks knowledge and judgement about her own situation. The OP knows her own children, and I'd err on the side of trusting that she and her husband (who is training to be an elementary school teacher and presumably has informed insight) have an accurate assessment of the situation.
I agree 100%
post #232 of 455
9/15/10 at 4:49pm
there can be debate about this for ages... Unschooling and schooling (as opposites) have very different philosophies and both can have their flaws depending on many factors...

Just because an 8 year old is not as the same place as her peers now, does not mean that she might not be one day, even in a year or two. And, just because this 8 year old is not at the same place as her peers now, does not mean that other unschooled kids would be in the same position. The OP will never know (not saying that she isn't right, I don't know the details)

Just close to home, my uncle and step-brother both graduated high school. Neither can read or write past their names and a few simple words. Does that mean that all public school is bad? No, of course not. It didn't work for them though.


Even in public schools not all kids are at the same level and not all systems work the same... As I said in a pp, I changed schools often and I was never at the same level going from one school to the next... (waldorf school to public school, different cities, different countries, different provinces, different school boards, different languages...)

I do believe that unschooling can and does work. Does it work 100% of the time?Again, there is no guarantee. Do I believe that it will work for us... yes I do. If not, I wouldn't be doing it.

I have a six year old that loves to draw and learned to sign his name at three... he wanted to, he felt the need to... He also loves workbooks and math problems... he shows no interest in learning to read though...

I have an 8 year old that can read novels but won't and doesn't (I didn't say can't) write his name. He has always hated to put a pencil to paper. He hates drawing, colouring, painting, writing etc... he always has...

Am I worried, no, I am not. He has not seen the need for writing yet and I am 100% confident that when he does he will do it. It isn't a lie, it isn't a delusion...

Btw.. I have to say that this thread makes me wish we had access to a library close to home or museums or community centres or all these activities for kids that everyone keeps talking about...
post #233 of 455
9/15/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evermom View Post
My ds took a different standardized test.



Yes, he is reading quite nicely now. He is overwhelmed by a whole page of text but is fine with sentences and short paragraphs. But I was pretty darn amazed when he was preliterate at how well he navigated around a big city on public transportation. He actually did better than I, at times, because I was busy trying to read all the signs whereas he took his clues from other sources. (And I must note that I am a very speedy reader, not standing there "sounding it out." )

.
Have you had his eyes checked?

The things you are describing are symptoms I experienced due to my eye issues. I had eye therapy when I was younger than your son.
post #234 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post
A 9 year old who cannot read basic words is at a disadvantage.

Suppose they become separated from their parents in a public place? Can they read the words telephone, police, restroom? Maybe they can recognize these things by other cues, if they've been shown... but maybe not. And he might very well be called upon to write his name, in that situation.
My three year old got lost two weeks ago...within a minute of us realizing he was not around we got called on the intercom of the store. He did the right thing and found someone to help him. He can't read or write but he can express himself using words...
post #235 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxye View Post
Just close to home, my uncle and step-brother both graduated high school. Neither can read or write past their names and a few simple words. Does that mean that all public school is bad? No, of course not. It didn't work for them though.
Yes, and just look at some ads on Craigslist to see examples of grammar and spelling from many public educated adults. Any type of schooling will have successes and failures. I don't believe public schooling ensures success (or means failure). It's more complex than that.
post #236 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaMonica View Post
Yes, and just look at some ads on Craigslist to see examples of grammar and spelling from many public educated adults. Any type of schooling will have successes and failures. I don't believe public schooling ensures success (or means failure). It's more complex than that.
How do you know which Craigslist ads are authored by public schooled adults?
post #237 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:26pm
The examples of illiterate adults are unnerving, to be sure. I just want to point out though, as the mama of a child w/dyslexia, that treatment for dyslexia seems to have evolved light years within the past generation. I don't think it was that uncommon for kids w/LD's to receive little help, or to be labled inappropriately. We were in a waldorf school and experienced this, just as we experienced the blame from the community for not following the party line of letting things happen in their own time. And, we know at least one unschooler for whom reading, as a teenager, is a mighty, mighty, struggle.

I don't know enough about unschooling in the elem years (we followed our other kids' wishes and utilized the ps) to know how exactly you help a child who has reached a later level, and still has very significant delays? My only frame of reference is working so very hard w/my child, and on her behalf to help. And, in volunteering w/older teens/young adults who couldn't read fluently. At that point you really have a different kettle of fish.

But, I did want to make the point about the treatment odf LD's today vs. even 15-20 years ago. I am hard pressed to think that a child would be in 4th grade and be unable to read, and no one knew it. Kids in 4th grade are reading aloud, writing science journals, writing book reports, writing math problems, taking standardized tests (more often than we did, certainly), doing group projects.....I don't know, something doesn't really ring true about that to me. As Aslyn noted, child find seems to really target those kids with skills that fall outside of developmental norms.

I think a big message is not to ignore when something doesn't seem right.
post #238 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslyn View Post
I just wanted to note here that public schools have changed dramaticly since IDEA was put into place, even in the last 5 yrs things changed. The state of Ohio was sued by a group of parents and has since introduced "child find" which mandates all public schools within the state to seek out and provide services to any child 3 yrs old and above..it is possible that the 4th grader in your example fell under old laws which were not as demanding on the public schools.
I'm in Canada. My nephew is just four years older than my son, who is in 12th grade. I have other nephews and nieces in the system, going down to second grade.

Aside from the lack of action when my nephew's reading issues were first discovered, the fact remains that services wouldn't have been offered before that, because nobody realized that he was barely reading at a kindergarten level in fourth grade. I'm not saying this is really common, because I honestly have no idea. It's just that I'm sure unschooling would have been blamed for this if he'd been an unschooler, but he wasn't and it still happened.
post #239 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
No education or training received. Unschooling. No education. Anyway that's what turned me off. But it may also turn some people ON to it.
The name "unschooling" is part of what attracts me to the idea. But, I've never taken it to mean "no education", as I've never equated "school" and "education" at all.

Quote:
Don't let me re-name your movement, though. I just think it's fascinating how the most successful, happy, confident unschoolers actually do a lot of... what I would call schooling. But for a specific type of child, that likes hands-on learning.
I don't think of any of that as schooling. Of course, we all filter everything through our own experiences. For me, "school" is defined roughly as "the 10th - and unknown - circle of Dante's hell", and "education" is defined roughly as "learning".
post #240 of 455
9/15/10 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I'm in Canada. My nephew is just four years older than my son, who is in 12th grade. I have other nephews and nieces in the system, going down to second grade.

Aside from the lack of action when my nephew's reading issues were first discovered, the fact remains that services wouldn't have been offered before that, because nobody realized that he was barely reading at a kindergarten level in fourth grade. I'm not saying this is really common, because I honestly have no idea. It's just that I'm sure unschooling would have been blamed for this if he'd been an unschooler, but he wasn't and it still happened.
no this isn't common I graduated in '94 and even in those days before we had cell phones, PC's and internet kids were being tested frequently on their reading and math skills..at least here in Ohio where I grew up.
New Posts  All Forums:
 
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Learning at Home and Beyond

You may also like:

Sitting or Squatting: What's Really Best in the Bathroom?
There Is Not Always a "Fix" For the Difficult Child
10 Things You Don't Need For a New Baby
Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Education › Learning at Home and Beyond › I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended)