I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended) - Page 17

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

You've completely misunderstood me. I believe that the parents of public schooled children are perfectly capable of assessing their children's interests. However, I believe that public school kids and unschooled kids lead very different lives, and that is going to affect their attitude about the world, and the things in which they are interested.

For example, I'm fairly certain my 8 y.o. wouldn't do her math workbook for fun if she were in school, because there's so much peer pressure there for kids to dislike math, and she is the kind of kid who would be affected by that.

Again, myth. My dd LOVES math. It is FuN for her at school. Lots of manipulatives, even now at 4th grade. Lots of kids in her class also love math. I can't say that there is any 'peer pressure' to hate math.

So, what you are essentially saying it that unschooled kids are free to be who they are and public schooled kids are pressured into a mold? I don't see it that way.at.all.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

For example, I'm fairly certain my 8 y.o. wouldn't do her math workbook for fun if she were in school, because there's so much peer pressure there for kids to dislike math, and she is the kind of kid who would be affected by that.

And if she was at a homeschooling group and another unschooling or homeschooling kid said that they disliked math, that wouldn't have an effect?

I've actually always been impressed by the motivation and assistance my kids have received from other students in their classes at school. They've been inspired to try so many interesting things and have learned so much from their classmates. Including math.

Peer influence (a more appropriate term, I think), good and bad, happens anywhere there are peers. Unless homeschoolers and unschoolers are living in isolation (and I know most are not - they socialize plenty), they will be influenced by other's attitudes.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by aslyn

I am a full supporter of homeschooling..it didnt work for my family but I still support it; but this thread has given me a few questions to ponder so I pose them to all of you. I'm not being snarky in any way I just really find this thread very interesting so please don't be offended!

As you mentioned homeschooling, not unschooling, I'll go ahead and answer. Keep in mind that I'm not really an unschooler, though. (I'm not sure what I am, but I'm not totally unschooling, at any rate.)

1. Any kid who has ever seen a show on pbs or nick jr or any of the other kids stations out there, or had any exposure to the outside world is going to be curious about school for those of you who have never sent your kids to school did your children ask to go to school at any point? How did you handle that? Do you think that child led learning and freedom of choice should/should not include the choice to go to school? If your child walked up to you right now and said "I want to go to school" would you oblige that choice? If not and you believe they are to young to make that decision, then why do you think that they are old enough to decide what they should learn?

My kids haven't shown much, if any, interest in going to school. DD1 hears her older brother talk about school and has picked up a really negative view of the whole thing. DS2 hasn't got the same negative view, but he's not really into the whole thing, either. If one of them asks to go to school, I'll explain that public school doesn't fit into our plans and routine as a family right now, so it's not an option. If they continue to express an interest over the long term, I'll probably give it a try.

I also think that a desire to go to school, because they've seen it on tv, or heard about it from their friends is a different kind of issue than expressing an interest in learning about bugs, rather cats, or wanting to choose their own art projects.

2. As we have seen in this thread there are kids who can catch up and those that can't/don't/struggle. At what age do you start to suspect there is problem/LD as opposed to just a non-interest subject material. Using my own DD as an example, forgetting that she has learning disabilities (because I dont think its fair to use anyone else's experiences or children as examples). She will be 10 in jan and just now learning to read basic stories, and basic math skills. (proud mommy moment she just read me the cat in the hat last night *yay*) her handwriting is barely legible. She has never shown a ounce of interest in anything except the fine arts and stage magic tricks and I fully suspect that she will be involved in some sort of theatre work when she grows up. Do you think her skill set is acceptable for her age?

To me, it's not about age. It's about the particular child. As with other aspects of parenting, I monitor the totality of what I'm seeing. With some kids, I wouldn't be concerned if they weren't reading, or were reading way "below grade level" at 9 or 10 or even 11. With other kids, I'd be very concerned. It depends on the whole picture. DD1 is "behind" on her reading, but the dynamics that play out when she works on it mesh with her whole personality and temperament. I'm not worried about it.

I focus on reading & math here, because those IMO are the 2 most important skills one can ever have. Without those a person will never be able to learn anything else. If you cant read a book on snakes (or even wikipedia articles) how will you learn about them? ykim? If you cant add or subtract how will you ever balance a checkbook, make a budget..even someone who works in fast food needs to know how to do these things.

I agree that reading and math are important. However, many, many adults manage - somehow - without being able to budget or balance a chequebook. And, people learn all kinds of things without reading. To use your snake example, how many of the people who write books about snakes learned everything they know about snakes from books? I'm sure there are a few, but I'm equally sure that many of them learned about snakes by observing snakes. The idea that we can't learn anything without reading kind of creeps me out...and I'm a total bookworm.

3. I have admitted that my 7 yr olds driving force for learning to read was to play world of warcraft..which we rarely let him actualy play anyway but from the age of about 2 and up he absolutely HATES to be read to. Even at school he hates reading groups (even though he is in the highest group where he reads whatever book he chooses from the bin) and he hates story time and library..hes bored out of his head. He hates reading books, he hates math. His only real interest is video games. If I was letting him go by his interest, do we all really believe that hes going to learn any real life skills from WoW? Sure maybe he will grow up to be a video game designer or something, but I asked him 1 day what he wanted to be when he grew up..his answer "I'm going to live with you and play video games on the computer" Not what I want to hear by far. However that leaves me to question if it's really in his best interest to let him follow his bliss?

Welll, I wouldn't worry about his answer to the question. IME, that's pretty common for the age. DS1 was convinced at that age that he'd live with me "forever", and he now thinks it's adorably cute when one of his younger siblings says the same thing.

I'm not sure how I'd handle the "follow his bliss" part of it. I've never met a child who is that resistant to being read to, so it's hard to know what I'd do, yk? However, I don't think that forgetting about his bliss would be helpful, either. How much is he getting out of storytime or being read to if he hates it hat much? I pulled a lot of really good grades in classes I didn't like that much (better grades in the classes that interested me, though). But, I didn't remember any of the content by a year after graduation. For me, it's not a matter of thinking that children should be able to just choose what they want to learn. It's about recognizing that children do, to some extent, choose what they want to learn, no matter what they're being taught. A child who was that resistant to reading, learning, etc. would be difficult to handle.

That said, the fact that the one thing he wants to do is play a video game would concern me. I do believe they're actually psychologically addictive, and I don't think that a preference for playing videogames is the same as a preference for doing art, riding a bike, making "potions" (as ds1 and my nephew used to do on my kitchen table on a regular basis), etc. etc. Personally, I'd intervene and limit screen time if my child were spending huge amounts of time playing videogames, because I, personally, think they can be damaging.

[phathui5]

And if she was at a homeschooling group and another unschooling or homeschooling kid said that they disliked math, that wouldn't have an effect?

Probably, but not as much as in a setting where that's a normal attitude to have. And my experience has been that the homeschooled kids we've hung out with haven't had that sort of feeling about learning as out friends who are in school.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

You've completely misunderstood me. I believe that the parents of public schooled children are perfectly capable of assessing their children's interests.

Now you are saying something completely different. What you stated earlier was that I am incapable of accurately gauging the interests of my child because he is in school. You said:

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

kids in school have so many activities forced on them, that I don't think you can accurately gauge what they might be interested in if they weren't in school.

I don't see any other way to interpret it.

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

However, I believe that public school kids and unschooled kids lead very different lives, and that is going to affect their attitude about the world, and the things in which they are interested.

I disagree, for the most part. All children lead a different lives and naturally those differences are going to affect their attitudes and interests. Kids are affected by religion, health, parents' political affiliation, arts and nature exposure (or lack), media exposure, peers, parenting style and their immediate neighborhoods. (To name just a few). I believe these things have far greater effect on a kid's outlook than what sort of educational setting he learns in. And I believe that parental encouragement and support of those interests is often the greatest factor of all - which has nothing to do with whether a child is in traditional school or unschooled.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

And if she was at a homeschooling group and another unschooling or homeschooling kid said that they disliked math, that wouldn't have an effect?

I've actually always been impressed by the motivation and assistance my kids have received from other students in their classes at school. They've been inspired to try so many interesting things and have learned so much from their classmates. Including math.

Peer influence (a more appropriate term, I think), good and bad, happens anywhere there are peers. Unless homeschoolers and unschoolers are living in isolation (and I know most are not - they socialize plenty), they will be influenced by other's attitudes.

I'm straddling both worlds right now, and the peer influence in the homeschool community is very, very different from the peer influence in the public schools. Honestly, now that I've experienced the homeschool community, I truly hope my kids don't ever really want to go to school, because I really don't want to deal with it all again. (DS1 is, fortunately, a very quirky kid, and found his own ways to navigate all that stuff a long time ago. DD1's personality is very different, and I think public school would be brutal for her. I think she'd be herself, but it would cost her a lot. DS2...hard to say. He could go either way, I think.)

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm straddling both worlds right now, and the peer influence in the homeschool community is very, very different from the peer influence in the public schools. Honestly, now that I've experienced the homeschool community, I truly hope my kids don't ever really want to go to school, because I really don't want to deal with it all again. (DS1 is, fortunately, a very quirky kid, and found his own ways to navigate all that stuff a long time ago. DD1's personality is very different, and I think public school would be brutal for her. I think she'd be herself, but it would cost her a lot. DS2...hard to say. He could go either way, I think.)

Well, I've straddled both worlds too, and I've had a different experience. An unschooler who is following his passion and is telling his mates that he isn't interested in math and doesn't want to work on it is can have just as much negative influence as a schooled kid saying the same thing.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

Well, I've straddled both worlds too, and I've had a different experience. An unschooler who is following his passion and is telling his mates that he isn't interested in math and doesn't want to work on it is can have just as much negative influence as a schooled kid saying the same thing.

If I'd ever heard a schooled kid say the same thing, I might agree with you. That's not the kind of comment I've heard from them. What I've heard schooled kids say is more like, "math sucks, and if you like it, you're a freak/nerd/geek/loser/etc.". DS1 doesn't particularly like math, so he hasn't run into this very much, but I sure did, and two of my nephews are getting it now, too.

I actually can't imagine a comment such as you describe having a negative effect on any of my kids. They'd probably respond with "good for you", and sk what said child's passion actually is. If they wanted to stop working on their math over such a comment, I'd have to assume they already disliked math, and that's a whole other issue.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Now you are saying something completely different. What you stated earlier was that I am incapable of accurately gauging the interests of my child because he is in school. You said:

No, I said that it's impossible to gauge what the interests of your child might be if they weren't in school. The same way it is impossible for me to gauge what the interests of my child might be if we lived in Germany. We don't live in Germany, I don't know how growing up in Germany might affect them because it didn't happen.

edited to add:

I reread what I wrote, and I'm wondering if the confusion lies in what I mean by a child being "in school". I meant "enrolled in school", and I wonder if you interpreted it as being physically in school (and of course kids who are enrolled in school aren't always physically in school, but they are still enrolled.)

[Dar]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Now you are saying something completely different. What you stated earlier was that I am incapable of accurately gauging the interests of my child because he is in school. You said:

Originally Posted by zeldamomma
kids in school have so many activities forced on them, that I don't think you can accurately gauge what they might be interested in if they weren't in school.

I don't see any other way to interpret it.

Huh. I guess I don't see how it's being misunderstood, because I read it the way zeldamomma intended. I think this is the same basic theory behind the Punished by Rewards idea - if a child is in school he is forced to learn about certain things, and the because this is something he doesn't control it may influence his feelings about these topics and other related topics. Thus, a child who might have loved math worksheets as an unschooler develops negative associations to them when in school, because he is forced to do them when he'd rather be doing something else, or because he does them more slowly than other kids and feels embarrassed, or because his friends hate them and he feels social pressure to hate them too.... whatever.

An unschooled child is free to develop an interest in math worksheets (or Greek mythology, or Chaucer) without that "baggage". Therefore, you can't know what a schooled child might be interested in if he weren't being schooled.

[EdnaMarie]

I do know an alternative school (Sudbury-type school) adult who went on to learn a great many things but earn no degrees. She does not have a career type job but she has work that presently fulfills her. She has a happy, full life. She's a smart, well-rounded individual. I think her school "worked" for her.

I can see that you measure success in life according to career and degree. I do not.

She just wrote that she knows someone without a formal higher education or a career, who is happy, for whom that worked.

Why would you say she measures success that way?

[2xy]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

She just wrote that she knows someone without a formal higher education or a career, who is happy, for whom that worked.

Why would you say she measures success that way?

She seems to use this individual as the exception to the rule, if you read that part of the post along with the previous part.

Really doesn't matter, since she doesn't know why she's bothering talking to me about it in the first place.

Anyway, if we're measuring success by happiness and satisfaction and the ability to do what you want, then the USA is definitely not a nation of success. Polls show that most Americans are unhappy.

[EdnaMarie]

She seems to use this individual as the exception to the rule, if you read that part of the post along with the previous part.

I disagree. I don't think she was measuring success, actually. She was suggesting that this person was happy. And I think she was just talking about opportunities for people with formal education. Since a child cannot predict what they want to do, and also cannot change what external constraints they face (by definition), they cannot say whether not having that piece of paper will be a hinderance.

I also don't see what national comparisons have to do with it. Formal schooling is popular almost everywhere in the world, and by "popular" I mean chosen over the alternative.

A fascinating article about how Bhutan is trying to balance happiness, formal education, and some economic growth:

http://rherald.our-hometown.com/news..._Page/f02.html

[ReadingMama]

Originally Posted by skueppers

I think it depends very much on whether you're talking about information or skills.It's relatively easy to learn new information. It's skills that are more difficult.

Most people, if they are interested, can acquire a great deal of knowledge about, say, dolphins or computer hardware in a short time.

What people usually can't do is acquire new skills without a lot of practice. Most people need thousands of hours of practice to achieve the level of competence required to participate in business meetings or college classes in a foreign language. Drawing, playing a musical instrument, writing, reading, math -- most people need to practice in order to be good at these things.

EXACTLY! And this has always been my struggle with unschooling--which is more or less what we do. I see the process working naturally in areas of information--but not so much for skills. At least not yet. And not where learning challenges come into play. Because the operating definition of USing--at MDC anyway--seems to require that it be all or nothing, I don't really identify as an unschooler. Because while unschooling information or content subjects works for us, taking the same approach with skills doesn't. Learning to read, to write, to spell, to do computation. Those things haven't come naturally.

I like when USing is presented as a spectrum. Because that's what it is. If there were more posts and experiences shared from this viewpoint, families might not feel as pressured to keep doing what doesn't seem to be working, all in the name of being "true unschoolers" and "trusting their children". If unschooling is about freedom, there's no room for pressure or rules.

That said, I agree with the posters who said that the problem here is that unschooling doesn't equal grade equivalency. So the OP's experience doesn't prove that unschooling doesn't prepare kids for life--just that it might not prepare a child for X grade in traditional school. And it's good for new unschoolers or those considering it to know that. Presenting USing (or anything!) in a balanced way allows people to make informed choices.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama

EXACTLY! And this has always been my struggle with unschooling--which is more or less what we do. I see the process working naturally in areas of information--but not so much for skills. At least not yet. And not where learning challenges come into play. Because the operating definition of USing--at MDC anyway--seems to require that it be all or nothing, I don't really identify as an unschooler. Because while unschooling information or content subjects works for us, taking the same approach with skills doesn't. Learning to read, to write, to spell, to do computation. Those things haven't come naturally.

But, if an unschooling child decides they want to learn to read, or write, or spell well, and then practices those skills, they're still unschooling. Unschooling doesn't preclude skills practice.

[MamieCole]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I disagree, for the most part. All children lead a different lives and naturally those differences are going to affect their attitudes and interests. Kids are affected by religion, health, parents' political affiliation, arts and nature exposure (or lack), media exposure, peers, parenting style and their immediate neighborhoods. (To name just a few). I believe these things have far greater effect on a kid's outlook than what sort of educational setting he learns in. And I believe that parental encouragement and support of those interests is often the greatest factor of all - which has nothing to do with whether a child is in traditional school or unschooled.

I have to disagree here. In theory, you are right. Kids should be more influenced by the things you listed, but the reality (at least in the USA because this is the only place I have lived/have first-hand experience) is that once they start spending more time w/peers than w/parents (i.e. daycare, institutionalized school in any form) as the main role models, the peers can easily become the primary influence over the child. Of course I am speaking mainly to the social aspect, but education gets muddled in w/the peer influence as well. I have just started reading "Hold On To Your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld and although I am only 20 or so pages in, I have found myself nodding my head countless times already.

When any child spends more of their waking hours w/peers than adults, you can bet that it will become very easy for the opinions of those peers to begin to matter significantly to that child. Homeschooled/unschooled kids spend the majority of their time with their parents/family/extended family and a smaller portion of their time with peers. This lessens the degree to which the peers have an influence, whether it be positive or negative.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

But, if an unschooling child decides they want to learn to read, or write, or spell well, and then practices those skills, they're still unschooling. Unschooling doesn't preclude skills practice.

See, I am not sure about this. Skill development takes time, and I am not sure it is reasonable to expect a 6 or 8 or 10 yo or even some teenagers to really appreciate the value of daily practice. My children are in a Suzuki music program, and they practice every day. There are some days they may not be that excited about it, but starting daily practice at age 4 has just made practicing a habit. They now, at ages 6 and 9, do it daily without complaint. They are not virtuosos, but by the time they leave this program they will be amazingly skilled musicians (in fact, they have considerable skill now at these young ages). I don't honestly see how they would be able to develop that skill if they didn't pick up the guitar or the habit of daily practice until much later (that's not to say that other children could not, but I am talking about skill development in children who are not profoundly gifted or talented).

I see the same thing applying to reading and math and other "skills." For those of us who are not extraordinary in our gifts and talents, all those years of missed skill development might really limit our options in life. Maybe I am wrong about this, but it just seems like a big chance to take.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

My children are in a Suzuki music program, and they practice every day. There are some days they may not be that excited about it, but starting daily practice at age 4 has just made practicing a habit.

My kids are Suzuki students too, yet we manage their daily practicing within an unschooling paradigm. I don't think it's necessary to "make" kids practice. They want to live up to their teachers' expectations, they love to learn well and play well, they see where it can take them, and they like to feel like hard-working people who are accomplishing something worthwhile. When they don't want to practice, we look together for ways to smooth the wrinkles out and make it easier and more enjoyable for them to do so. We've always been successful at doing so, though sometimes lots of trial and error is required. Still, we are working on that trial and error from the same side, collaboratively. It's not me making them do it, and them resisting.

I find that a similar approach works well in other areas. It also helps that the kids have their Suzuki music experience to fall back on as an object lesson in the value of persistence and of creativity in overcoming short-term motivation problems.

Miranda

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

Agree. My ds started Singapore 3B, his first formal math program, in mid-September at age 9 and finished 6B less than six months later with a maximum of 20 minutes a day of work, five days a week.
Miranda

I've seen you post quite a bit on mothering. According to many of your posts your children are also highly gifted. Just because a highly gifted child can do 3 yrs of math in 6 months does not mean a normal child can.

Originally Posted by moominmamma

Well, there's context and there's context. There's raising tadpoles from a biological supply company in a tank in the classroom, until they turn into toadlets and disappear from the class when they get too big. And then there's finding tadpoles one day at your favourite lake and taking some home and putting them in a pond and comparing their metamorphosis to those in the lake (much slower in the pond!), and watching them hop out of your pond at home as they become terrestrial, and stumbling upon them, sometimes literally, for years around your house as they grow bigger and bigger. And wonder of wonders, finding tadpoles in your pond again a few years later! The first is the context 1st and 2nd graders get at the local public school. The latter is what my kids have got.

Miranda

This is not exclusive to unschooling. That is called parenting. Most parents, good parents anyway, allow their children and encourage their children to follow their interests. They may even discover interests they never new existed by being educated. Education is a parents responsibility regardless of where their children go to school.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

My kids are Suzuki students too, yet we manage their daily practicing within an unschooling paradigm. I don't think it's necessary to "make" kids practice. They want to live up to their teachers' expectations, they love to learn well and play well, they see where it can take them, and they like to feel like hard-working people who are accomplishing something worthwhile. When they don't want to practice, we look together for ways to smooth the wrinkles out and make it easier and more enjoyable for them to do so. We've always been successful at doing so, though sometimes lots of trial and error is required. Still, we are working on that trial and error from the same side, collaboratively. It's not me making them do it, and them resisting.

I find that a similar approach works well in other areas. It also helps that the kids have their Suzuki music experience to fall back on as an object lesson in the value of persistence and of creativity in overcoming short-term motivation problems.

Miranda

But, that's no different than what I do, or what any other well-trained Suzuki parent would do - shake it up, talk about it, make practice interesting and fun in the early years until it becomes a habit. That's just good parenting. So does that make me an unschooler? I don't think so? Yet, my children do virtually all their daily work without resistance. I am not sure where the idea that anyone who is not unschooling is forcing learning came from?