I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended) - Page 3

[littlest birds]

I do eclectic, child-adapted homeschooling. I currently have 2 children in PS and 2 at home. They want structure and they want me to plan and offer some leadership. We used to "try" to be unschoolers but adapted into something more comfortable for us over time. Part of that adaptation was influenced by my awareness of "school" norms, because I want my children to be equipped to navigate lots of situations and settings, including more formal ones. Because we don't know what the future holds.

I think well of unschooling ideas--but I see plenty of practical problems with it too. Everyone has to find their own balance somewhere. You can only do that if you are thinking critically about what you hear and experience, observing your own and others' children, considering what their future may hold and what kind of relationship you want to have with the larger community. While I agree that you can't predict all future life changes, I still think that giving your child as much flexibility and as many options for the near and distant future is an important thing to consider. Clearly, unschooling closed some doors on an option for your dd because she was too far away from the norms to adapt.

I agree with OP that the ideal image of unschooling presented by unschoolers can really "sell" parents on the idea. Some unschoolers are genuinely happy and trying to get the word out to share something wonderful, others are talking it up to make them feel better about their own fears, others even speak in ways that put down others--that suggest everyone else is too controlling and not respectful of their children in some way if they do anything different. Regardless, they are sincerely talking about what they believe, not lying. A belief may be flawed in some way or omit something important for you--but that is not a lie. It's normal for people to speak highly of what they believe in, especially when they are in a minority that doesn't get a lot of support or approval.

I understand you feeling you received bad information. But really you just stepped from complete immersion in one extreme reality to complete immersion in another. The unschoolers' belief system no longer applies. Things look very different. Right has become wrong. But surely you did know that world was out there and that it was very very different? If you close your mind to outside perspectives while you are an unschooler you might be shocked when you step into that other world where all the expectations are different. But they were out there all along. It's a pretty good reason to explore different degrees of in-between and what they mean to you. I would not want my children to be too much strangers to that other world whether at 8 or 12 or 20, but I strongly want to avoid them being immersed in it. (We actually plan to homeschool all 4 of our dc next year.)

All of my children have both homeschooled and public schooled. (We have never been radical unschoolers even though it sounds so nice.) We have always been involved with families and children who were homeschoolers, unschoolers, and at public school. Most of my kids' friends go to school while they also have quite a few homeschooled friends as well. It's hard for me to imagine going with the flow (unschooling) so far that they would feel ignorant in a conversation with any of these peers and it's hard for me to imagine myself not being aware enough of standard grade level material to not be aware that they were way behind. Even if I accepted it, I think I would definitely be aware of it.

That said, I bet the routines and format of school are as overwhelming as the academics. Your dd isn't accustomed to completing papers and following certain types of instructions, behaving in certain ways, processing the cafeteria noise, the classroom routines, the overall flow of school. My experience is that the academics tend to be easy enough (except for sheer volume) especially at the very beginning and that the unwritten rules for functioning are more difficult. The whole setting is overwhelming. One of ours went to second grade for two weeks and although academics were fine she had meltdowns all of the time do to the overall noise and busyness of the setting and the controlled schedule and we brought her home. I could give lots of examples. Of all the examples I've ever had transitioning into school, structural issues outnumber academics about 10 to 1.

Why be mad? Another way to look at this is that school doesn't meet your daughter's needs at this time. She is still on a perfectly suitable path. No child with academics partly or fully delayed until 8yo can be behind enough to cause a problem for their long term development IMO even if being caught up soon is important to you. If school is the wrong place for her now, that is perfectly okay. It's an inconvenience. A learning experience. She learned that learning academic things has value. She has learned that doing what her peers are has value. You both have more perspective. You are ready to make a change. You haven't failed anything. You are still a great mom. Your dd is still wonderful. You've faced something very difficult together. It's time to take the next step together. Everything will be okay.

[mum4vr]

to you mama(s)

That is the worst thing in the world to feel-- esp if your dc was traumatised and made to feel "less" in anyway, and you didn't even have time to head it off.

I'm so so sorry for your pain over this.

Please, try not to guilt yourselves, mamas-- you did what you thought was the best thing with the info you had. If you'd known she was going to go into PS in 3rd grade, and that she'd struggle, you would have done differently, but ~shrug~ you just didn't know the future.

Love and forgive yourself bc you did the best for her with what you had. Now you are still doing the best for your DC with what you have.

We are not unschoolers per se (or maybe not "radical" unschoolers), but our system is not compatible w PS until around high school-- maybe middle school for my addicts to the written word!

Also keep in mind that for a few years, you blessed her with many things that PS children never have-- she was not made to sit in a desk 40 hours a week; she was socialized by a loving parent rather than 30 or more 5-7yos; she learned what it is to live life its own self-- all for a few precious years.

HTH, and I hope ultimately the blessings outweigh the pain of that first school experience for her AND for you.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by savithny

As much as its popular to say that you can fit years of curriculum into a few weeks, or that you can cram multiple grades of information into a summer, research has shown again and again that expertise and mastery comes from practice.

I just want to note that this surprised me, because this was not at all the case with my son or with some of his now grown friends. In fact, to the contrary, I saw again and again that less seemed to be more.

- Lillian

[skueppers]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

I just want to note that this surprised me, because this was not at all the case with my son or with some of his now grown friends. In fact, to the contrary, I saw again and again that less seemed to be more.

I think it depends very much on whether you're talking about information or skills.

It's relatively easy to learn new information. It's skills that are more difficult.

Most people, if they are interested, can acquire a great deal of knowledge about, say, dolphins or computer hardware in a short time.

What people usually can't do is acquire new skills without a lot of practice. Most people need thousands of hours of practice to achieve the level of competence required to participate in business meetings or college classes in a foreign language. Drawing, playing a musical instrument, writing, reading, math -- most people need to practice in order to be good at these things.

I can see this easily in my own life when I compare my skills in English to my skills in German. I've spoken both languages my entire life, but I've lived in an English-speaking country since I was two. Obviously, my English is better than my German -- because I've practiced it more.

[princesstutu]

Everyones' brains are different, so everyone will have different experiences. Some people need longer to retain information, some people need shorter time. That's why it's important to take learning styles into consideration when choosing an education model to use.

OP The problem mostly seemed to be the emotional pain your dd went through? Sounds to me like the perfect opportunity to work on cultivating feelings of self-worth. A child isn't stupid just because she can't multiply or spell well. If you needed to tell your dd that over and over, again, that's okay. Better now, when she's young. Make empowering her a time of joy and bonding between the two of you. I imagine it's better for both of you than you feeling guilty and remorseful.

I guess I mostly see the positives and the learning opportunities that have nothing to do with self-recrimination in this situation. Good luck! I find it's always best for my emotional health to ask what a super-emotional situation has taught me besides "don't do this again!" or "this was bad!"

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by skueppers

I think it depends very much on whether you're talking about information or skills.

It's relatively easy to learn new information. It's skills that are more difficult.

Most people, if they are interested, can acquire a great deal of knowledge about, say, dolphins or computer hardware in a short time.

What people usually can't do is acquire new skills without a lot of practice. Most people need thousands of hours of practice to achieve the level of competence required to participate in business meetings or college classes in a foreign language. Drawing, playing a musical instrument, writing, reading, math -- most people need to practice in order to be good at these things.

I agree that the only way to get good at writing or playing an instrument is to practice, and however, I think that much of what kids learn in arithmetic and algebra is commonly used in day to day life, and so kids who haven't had formal lessons in it can often learn years worth of math in a short time. Actually there was an experiment done in which school children were not taught any math until 6th grade, and they actually were better able to apply math to real life than kids who were taught on a more traditional schedule. You can read about it here. Sometimes practice can get in the way of learning.

[sapphire_chan]

did the school get whiny because your ddwasn't some kind of super homeschooler who could ace the standardized testing in half the alloted time and bring funding and glory and funding to the school that had nothing to do with her education?

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by lmonter

I'm so sorry it didn't work out how you'd hoped.


My thought on this is that you haven't failed them in the least. You haven't given up on them, you're just changing and modifying your course of action. I think we all do that at some point or another in most facets of life.

This is an excellent point and op, one I think you should try to remember. If she had been in public school all these years and you went to homeschooling, and at a local hs meeting discovered that she was horribly behind all the other kids, you'd feel equally betrayed - yet you really didn't do anything wrong. Children are resiliant and tend to absorb information and skills pretty easily. I have no doubt your dd will catch up and in 2 years at the most no one would ever suspect this even occurred. In academics she'll end up with the same education as her peers at public school. Now think of all the experiences she has had that her peers at public school haven't. Coming from a parent who doesn't and never has homeschooled, I don't think you've failed her at all.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

... I think that much of what kids learn in arithmetic and algebra is commonly used in day to day life, and so kids who haven't had formal lessons in it can often learn years worth of math in a short time.

Agree. My ds started Singapore 3B, his first formal math program, in mid-September at age 9 and finished 6B less than six months later with a maximum of 20 minutes a day of work, five days a week. I've seen similar trajectories with handwriting (eldest) and French (middle dd) where readiness plus decisive focus equals several years of progress in the space of several months.

Awaiting readiness and motivation isn't always possible, nor is it always effective. But I've sure seen some impressive examples of efficient learning in my own kids when we've been able to wait. It's too bad that the OP didn't have time on her side.

Miranda

[savithny]

Originally Posted by skueppers

I think it depends very much on whether you're talking about information or skills.

It's relatively easy to learn new information. It's skills that are more difficult.

Most people, if they are interested, can acquire a great deal of knowledge about, say, dolphins or computer hardware in a short time.

What people usually can't do is acquire new skills without a lot of practice. Most people need thousands of hours of practice to achieve the level of competence required to participate in business meetings or college classes in a foreign language. Drawing, playing a musical instrument, writing, reading, math -- most people need to practice in order to be good at these things.

I can see this easily in my own life when I compare my skills in English to my skills in German. I've spoken both languages my entire life, but I've lived in an English-speaking country since I was two. Obviously, my English is better than my German -- because I've practiced it more.

Exactly. Facility with language comes with use. Lots and lots of use, over time, preferably in different environments.

And that's not just foreign language, but your native language. You don't learn the nuances of word meaning from a few days with vocabulary lists. You learn them from a life of reading the words, hearing them spoken to you, and writing them yourself. The more times you hear or read a word, and the more situations in which you encounter it, the better your understanding of its meaning and its shades of meaning.

The same is true for math concepts - once you get to a certain point in your studies, there are mathematical concepts and operations that you simply need to know and have internalized. If you want to do quantitative chemical analysis or study physics, for example, you need to have more than knowledge of the existence of the calculations. You need a facility with complex mathematical operations that -- for me, at least -- took a lot of time and practice to acquire.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I agree that the only way to get good at writing or playing an instrument is to practice, and however, I think that much of what kids learn in arithmetic and algebra is commonly used in day to day life, and so kids who haven't had formal lessons in it can often learn years worth of math in a short time. Actually there was an experiment done in which school children were not taught any math until 6th grade, and they actually were better able to apply math to real life than kids who were taught on a more traditional schedule. You can read about it here. Sometimes practice can get in the way of learning.

I think that study was significant, but I think it does not mean that math is not a skill that takes practice. We know that good math skills have to have a strong concrete foundation before they move to abstractions - that is about brain development. But math at higher levels is really a language, and to become competent at it requires time and practice.

Which doesn't mean that people can't teach themselves math, or learn it as they go along in some situations. But to show up at, say, a university chemistry class while simultaneously trying to learn the math would be very frustrating.

I think apart from the discussion of grade level, there is the question of whether there are things we need to know to be good citizens, and educated human beings. There is a strain of thought among some unschoolers which says there is no set of necessary information, all information is equal. I knew a family which subscribed to this - their teen spent the majority of his day playing video games, and honestly I think I would simply say he was uneducated.

I'm obviously not an unschooler I do think there are basic things one should know - not for being at grade level, but to be an educated human being. Reading writing arithmetic, enough to carry on and self-learn whatever one needs. How government works, history, something about human nature, and the nature of the world, and what our purpose in life is. I even think a good grasp of literature and art is important, because those are the ways culture speaks about its beliefs and insights. I don't really think it is important how one acquires these things. But by the time a person votes, I think he should have the information and context to make a reasonable choice.

Just for context, I was public schooled, and received a poor education. I didn't know most of those things when I became an adult, and those that I did I learned outside of school. But when I went on to university I felt really at a disadvantage compared to those students who already had a sense of history, for example. I was a lot better off than some though, who could neither put together a logical argument, nor express it in writing.

Anyway, to me these are the issues unschooling needs to adress when it makes educational claims - not that it needs to agree with me, but it needs to be clear about its purposes to parents.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I think that study was significant, but I think it does not mean that math is not a skill that takes practice. We know that good math skills have to have a strong concrete foundation before they move to abstractions - that is about brain development. But math at higher levels is really a language, and to become competent at it requires time and practice.

What I thought was interesting about the study is that it suggests that the practicing was actually interfering with understanding, and that by allowing kids to mature until they were ready to understand, and with 6 months of practice, these kids were more competent than kids who'd had years of practice, but had been forced to begin before they were able to understand what they were practicing.

In other words, while practice is important, it cannot replace understanding and does not necessarily result in understanding.

I suspect that often "practice" gets credit for an increase in skills when greater maturity actually is responsible.

Which doesn't mean that people can't teach themselves math, or learn it as they go along in some situations. But to show up at, say, a university chemistry class while simultaneously trying to learn the math would be very frustrating.

Agreed.

[NightOwlwithowlet]

Hugs to OP and your daughter, you haven't failed her.
We aren't unschoolers, I don't think it would work for my son. He seems to need a certain structure and repetition to learn, though the info needs to present in several different ways.

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, my two sisters and I were first home schooled for a year and then attended an alternative school that was unschooled based.

When I returned to PS at 13 in 8th grade, I read at a college level, couldn't do 6th grade math or spelling, and was at grade level or close in all other subjects. It took me less then six months to catch up, though I struggled with math and handwriting all through high school because of undiagnosed dyslexia. Catching up took a ton of determination, tutoring, and work.

My little sister was 10 and was illiterate. She was completely unable to do any of the work. My parents were stunned because the alternative school had told them she could read and since she could memorize chapter books, they thought she could too. She caught up in within a year with tutoring, my mom working with her every day for hours, and sheer determination not be held back.

My older sister 16 and in 11th grade. She had huge gaps in her knowledge. Despite a great deal of work, she still feels like she missed out on a lot of stuff. She is in her 40s and is still angry at my parents for what she feels are missed opportunities. She has a BA in business, teaches at a community college, and is working on her masters, but still describes herself as uneducated and ignorant.

My mom is still wracked with guilt about how hard it was for my sisters to catch up. She questioned our choice of home schooling based on her experiences, she's a big supporter now.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Anyway, to me these are the issues unschooling needs to adress when it makes educational claims - not that it needs to agree with me, but it needs to be clear about its purposes to parents.

I missed this before-- "unschooling" is an idea, and is therefore unable to "address" anything. It's not an idea that has single author like the Charlotte Mason, Waldorf or Montessori approaches.

As someone who tends towards the unschooly end of the spectrum, I would argue that unschooling can lead to a better understanding of history, science, and other information related to cultural literacy. Unschoolers have the opportunity to hear about something in context, and then pursue greater understanding. Using a language leads to better fluency than simply studying a language in a classroom, and learning about and applying knowledge in the real world can similarly lead to better and more complete understanding.

This isn't just theoretical for me, I've had my 9 year old explain how momentum and buoyancy are responsible for the way a toy was behaving in her brother's bath. My kids would probably struggle some if they were put in school, right now because there are classroom-related skills they haven't been practicing, but I have every reason to believe that they will be uniformly well ahead of "grade level" by the time they are of graduation age.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I agree that the only way to get good at writing or playing an instrument is to practice, and however, I think that much of what kids learn in arithmetic and algebra is commonly used in day to day life, and so kids who haven't had formal lessons in it can often learn years worth of math in a short time. Actually there was an experiment done in which school children were not taught any math until 6th grade, and they actually were better able to apply math to real life than kids who were taught on a more traditional schedule. You can read about it here. Sometimes practice can get in the way of learning.

Peter Gray needs to read Liping Ma's book Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics. It's not working, so stop teaching seems a simply ludicrous position. I would highly recommend this book to anyone who wants to understand elementary mathematics.

[2xy]

I am very frustrated at reading many of these posts. It seems that lots of people just don't understand unschooling at all.

Unschooling, for lack of a better term (until people start to accept living as part and parcel of learning), is the natural way to learn. However, this does not mean unschoolers do not take traditional classes or use curricular materials when the student, or parents and children together, decide that this is how they want to do it. Learning to read or do quadratic equations are not "natural" processes, but unschoolers nonetheless learn them when it makes sense to them to do so, not because they have reached a certain age or are compelled to do so by arbitrary authority. Therefore it isn't unusual to find unschoolers who are barely eight-years-old studying astronomy or who are ten-years-old and just learning to read.

What is Unschooling?

If you expect all 9yo people to have the same amount of skill and knowledge, unschooling is not for you. If you believe that normal, efficient people do not have gaps in their knowledge (I've never met one), unschooling is not for you. If you believe that an education is something you receive rather than something you pursue, unschooling is not for you. If you believe that your kid should be classroom-ready at all times, unschooling is not for you. Life is not a syllabus.

Barring any sort of learning disability, an individual should not need a ton of repetition to learn something new IF the individual is ready and willing. It doesn't take years and years to learn to read and do math if you wait until the child is mature enough and shows interest. The reason schools push reading is because teachers in schools do not have time to read instructions to each student. Kids in school have to be self-sufficient in order to succeed in that environment.

[jeteaa]

what I think is missing from this discussion is that unschooling our children takes alot of work on the parents part. US parents need to expose their children to a wide variety of the real world. Visit museums multiple times a year, travel, watch documentaries together, have a vast home library on a variety of subjects. I have never understood quality US to be that you stay home all day and let your child play video games while mom reads and cleans the house. I have seen it written here on MDC over and over again how US can be more work than school at home. And even with a US parent who provides all of these experiences and opportunities for their dc, if their dc aren't absorbing all the info or showing motivation to explore knowledge further, than it is the US parents JOB to say "US is not the right choice for my dc". I feel that if a child is truly exposed to a quality US lifestyle, they should naturally learn the basics of an elementary education, basic math skills, reading, writing, history ect.

[Arduinna]

Ok that is a whole lot of missing information that is important. Personally I can't even imagine trying to work full time overnights at the same time I'm HSing my kids, let alone USing them. I don't see how that is going to work unless my husband is staying home with them. I'd need my sleep. I thought from the OPs post that she was forced into a situation where she could no longer stay home and do this and was forced to put her kids in school.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Dar

I've read about how parents from certain classes just intuitively talk to kids about certain things and in certain ways, and I suppose I did this. Maps have always been around, NPR has always been on the radio, friends came to our house and discussed the political situation in other countries... that's our family culture, and it ties in nicely with the knowledge set usually considered indicative of being an educated person in the U.S. OTOH, my kid learned very little from me about, say, sports, or fashion, and I'm not sure how well-educated she'd be considered in those areas today. On the third hand, our family culture was pretty low on stuff like cinema and literature, and she knows a lot about those...

I'm just sort of thinking aloud here. I think it's a topic that doesn't get explored very often, because people do wind up feeling attacked or offended. Why (or in what situations) does unschooling not work? Is the issue that of unreasonable expectations for unschooling, or are there things some unschooling parents are doing that aren't discussed, but that lead to unschooling working for them? Or is unschooling just not suited for certain kids?

I wonder the same thing. I really have trouble understanding unschooling not "working". I don't know if my definition of working is different or if our life style is that different. I know we do a lot of talking with ds. Dh and I are both very present for ds. Dh loves history and is always going off on a tangent about it, giving ds all sorts of background. Same with science. Dh shows ds what he's doing when he's upgrading the computer. Ds always understood maps, picking out the railroad tracks the first time he looked at one. We use maps regularly (I love to print out a googlemap before trips). I search around for things to do that sound fun. I arrange local parkdays. I take ds to museums occasionally. I really don't feel like we do anything special or in particular. Ds does spend what others would think is an outrageous amount of time playing video games. I have chronic fatigue syndrome and we are poor, lol. So I don't have a ton of energy or money to "enrich" ds. But I'm sure our lives are very different than the next family's.

There are many things ds doesn't know, as well. I don't think he can write his name (I suspect perfectionism issues at play, plus it isn't a priority yet. He'll sign cards if I say the letters but he doesn't want to make a mistake so won't do it on his own). He knows very little about sports. He doesn't know how to play baseball or soccer. I don't expect him to know what other kids know. I think it's great that people know different things. Gives them something to talk about, lol.

Originally Posted by 2xy

I am very frustrated at reading many of these posts. It seems that lots of people just don't understand unschooling at all.



What is Unschooling?

If you expect all 9yo people to have the same amount of skill and knowledge, unschooling is not for you. If you believe that normal, efficient people do not have gaps in their knowledge (I've never met one), unschooling is not for you. If you believe that an education is something you receive rather than something you pursue, unschooling is not for you. If you believe that your kid should be classroom-ready at all times, unschooling is not for you. Life is not a syllabus.

Barring any sort of learning disability, an individual should not need a ton of repetition to learn something new IF the individual is ready and willing. It doesn't take years and years to learn to read and do math if you wait until the child is mature enough and shows interest. The reason schools push reading is because teachers in schools do not have time to read instructions to each student. Kids in school have to be self-sufficient in order to succeed in that environment.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by marilynmama

I feel I have done my children a disservice by unschooling them.

I have been unschooling my children for 8 years now. I have a 12 yo and an 8yo. This year, for various reasons, we decided the 8yo would start school (3rd grade). She was so VASTLY behind the other kids in every subject it was embaressing, overwhelming for her, a NIGHTMARE for both her and us. It was so bad we had to pull her out. The only part she had no trouble with was socializing lol.

Never will I unschool again! I dont want any flames for this because I have a right to my exerience and opinion.

I am very upset with myself. I feel I have been duped and lied to by the unschooling community honestly.

I still firmly support and believe in homeschooling, but no longer can I support unschooling for my family.

After reading the rest of this thread, I agree with everything you wrote here. Other than being duped and lied to. Just so you know, unschooling has never been sold as a philosophy compatible with working full time outside the home, and especially not when we are talking grade school age. Teens can be capable of learning independently though. Kids need time with people that are actively involved in helping them explore the world around them.