I am no longer a supporter of unschooling :( (BIG vent, dont read if ur going to be offended) - Page 5

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by waiflywaif

True. There's no reason that both styles can't happen simultaneously though. Unschoolers aren't the only ones who go hiking! I guess what I'm opposed to is the either/or, black-and-white thinking. Many kids who attend school ALSO attend museums, do science projects with their parents, and have plenty of time to play and jump and run and learn. It seems a bit of a double-edged sword to hear, "if we did school, we wouldn't have time to X"---and then read threads like this, where one learns that apparently many people DON'T do school and STILL don't seem to do X.

i agree with you actually. although we have always homeschooled, i can honestly say IRL all of our family & friends with public school experience also have lives that involve playtime, exploration, outings, fun, family time & lots of learning through everyday experiences.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by waiflywaif

I WOH as well. During the Great School Search I often used personal time, work-from-home days, or flex time to make in-person visits.

My point wasn't that I couldn't make the visits (although I couldn't have, because I didn't have flex time or work-from-home days). My point was that I couldn't have gotten him to school, even if I'd found a better one.

You can't learn everything you need to know about a school from test scores and graphs, so I felt I needed to visit. My kid's education is very important to me, as I know it is for everyone in this thread.

I don't think you can learn everything you need to know about a school at all. A visit gives you more info, but it's still a parent's eye view, not a student's eye view.

I do think it's great that there are schools like that out there. To me, though, school is school, honestly. Some of us just aren't cut out for the school experience. I'm not. DS1 is. DD1 isn't. DS2...not sure yet. DH? He did okay...got a good education, at least.

[chfriend]

I'm really sorry that OP is feeling disappointed with the results of her choices. I'm often regarded as an unschooler by folks observing my family's ways of learning. What DP says about our style is, "We have curriculum and sometimes we use it."

My kids are unique and require individual responses. Very individual responses.

My personal belief is that if a system of education is working well for your child, you know it in the low level of tension generally, the sparkle in his or her eyes, the flush of excitement in his or her cheeks. Not every minute of every day, but overall.

Watching for the dulled eyes, the slumped shoulders, the retreat away..... and tweaking and turning the ways of learning until things are right again seems like it gives you the greatest likelihood of looking back on these days with a sense that you made the best choices you could for your individual children.

WTG to the OP for pulling her child out of school when it wasn't working. It sounds like the real question is:

Where to go with the educational journey now.

[Rach]

OP, my friends moved their kids from one public school to another. They were shocked and overwhelmed when they discovered their children were far behind at the new school. They spent months getting their kids caught up.
Sometimes you can being doing everything the same as you always have and still find yourself in an overwhelming situation.

I hope your DD is feeling better about her schooling! I'm sorry unschooling didn't work out.

[Juvysen]

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by jeteaa

what I think is missing from this discussion is that unschooling our children takes alot of work on the parents part. US parents need to expose their children to a wide variety of the real world. Visit museums multiple times a year, travel, watch documentaries together, have a vast home library on a variety of subjects. I have never understood quality US to be that you stay home all day and let your child play video games while mom reads and cleans the house. I have seen it written here on MDC over and over again how US can be more work than school at home. And even with a US parent who provides all of these experiences and opportunities for their dc, if their dc aren't absorbing all the info or showing motivation to explore knowledge further, than it is the US parents JOB to say "US is not the right choice for my dc". I feel that if a child is truly exposed to a quality US lifestyle, they should naturally learn the basics of an elementary education, basic math skills, reading, writing, history ect.

Well said. I wish I had time to participate in this duscussion, but houseguests are on their way. Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote for Home Education Magazine some years back - just my own take, since there's no one formal viewpoint we can all agree on. Obviously, it isn't or everyone, but at least we can sort of agree on what it is:

One common myth is that unschoolers "do nothing" toward educating their children, but this fallacy is based on widespread misunderstandings about the way unschoolers think about the nature of learning and how it works. They actually tend to be fascinated with learning, and quite dedicated to actively instilling the joy of learning in their children - they simply don't feel that imitating school methods will accomplish this best. The unschooling philosophy leaves the "school" concept out of "homeschooling" and gets on with learning and living. Some of us even feel that the word "homeschooling" is unfortunate - "home learning" might be much more descriptive.

We've all grown up with the school model of learning; we went to school - and we learned. Consequently, we assumed that learning and school are interdependent. Realistically, though, school is just an institutionalized format for providing education to the masses. An individual family can provide far superior ways for a child to learn.

Basically, the unschooler looks at a child as a natural learner who doesn't need to be processed through the school model to thrive intellectually or otherwise. This doesn't mean the parent stands back and leaves the children to flounder and discover the wonders of the world all on their own. To the contrary, unschooling parents tend to be quite actively involved in introducing their children to the world, often learning enthusiastically right alongside them. However their experience is that children can and will learn what they need to know without being orchestrated, coerced, or controlled. Learning comes quite naturally in countless ways through daily living - in the normal course of reading to children, playing games of all kinds, shopping, baking, conversation, videos, audio tapes, hobbies, clubs, classes, meeting new people, and seeing new places. Learning can also come in pure, unadulterated play, or in serious and focused interest in a study or project. An unschooling parent might very well teach a child certain things, but also recognizes that a child can learn much of what she needs to know without being "taught."

Modeling the joy of learning is obviously essential to the process. The intention is not to fill a container with facts but to provide the spark and tools the child will need for lifelong discovery and mastery - a love of learning that will be a part of the child's character for life.

Unschoolers recognize that life presents a number of things that are fun to learn, useful to learn, important or vital to learn, but they find that children can naturally cover all that as they pursue their interests, learning their own way and at their own pace. The child might be the one who initiates seeking out more information about a subject, but the parents quite naturally bring things to the children's attention and share their own knowledge and delight about all manner of subjects. The parent and child might decide together to use a text for one subject or another, but they use it only as a tool like any other tool rather than as a mold.

It's often said that there are as many kinds of homeschooling as there are homeschoolers, and this is probably a good way to look at unschoolers too. You might observe highly structured homeschoolers who stick to traditional methods arguing with unschoolers over how children should be educated; but you can also find unschoolers arguing with other unschoolers about what unschooling is or who's "a real unschooler." That's because no one holds title to the term; many individuals have used it in slightly different ways since it was first coined by former teacher and education reformer, John Holt, (author of many books popular with homeschoolers). It was a radical idea in Holt's time to not send your kids to school, and he referred to that lifestyle as "unschooling," although he eventually came to promote the more specific set of educational beliefs that now associated with the term.

One thing we can all agree on is that unschooling means learning outside the traditional school model; but realistically, this means slightly different things to different people. Many unschooling parents introduce lots of ideas and activities; while some find that to be disrespectful or unnecessary. Some children want to be very independent; while others might really enjoy being actively involved with the whole family's interests. Some children or teens might occasionally express a preference for a more traditionally structured program, or might even want to take some outside classes - and facilitating those preferences is all part of unschooling.

Regardless of variables, the guiding principles of the educational style we call unschooling are always to be sensitive to what works well for the individual child and to be conscious of the fact that the learner is the person who ultimately best knows his needs and his own way of learning. The unschooling life is tailored to the learner rather than the learner tailored to the program. Lillian

[mamaofthree]

OT: my 9 year old is JUST reading and actually he is doing great. when it was introduced before he would get very confused and frustrated, by being able to wait until HE was ready (not just some age that they are suppose to read) he is actually enjoying it and doing really well. i don't think there is an age that any child should be doing anything. each child is different and learn at a different pace. i think we get this idea that they need to be doing A. B, and C by this age and if they are not then they are failing, when instead they may not be ready to do it yet. i have 6 year old how is also ready to read and is doing well. so honestly it really depends on the child not the age. you can force stuff on kids and they pull away and shut down, or you can let them lead the way and you will be surprised at what they learn and how well it goes.

h

[briansmama]

Dear OP,

I'm sorry to hear the transition has been so rough! I wanted to share my thoughts with you in regards to your post.

We are not unschoolers, however, as Lillian mentioned, our alternative method of education would no way prepare my ds to enter public school tomorrow.

Now, personally, I feel perfectly ok about this, even somewhat happy about it because our whole reason for homeschooling in the first place was to avoid the endless worksheets, textbooks, and standardized tests.

For what it's worth, many children here in CA attend alternative schools (including those who do not/have not ever homeschooled) and are also likely not prepared to integrate into a standard public school at any given time. Waldorf ed, montessori, Reggio-emelia, child-led, thematic, democratic, faith-based, literature based, and dual language immerson programs are all vastly different from our local traditional public schools.

In fact, we have a dual-immersion charter school in town and they will only allow children to start in K and they prepare the parents by telling them it is at least a 5 year commitment because if they were to pull our their child in a few years they would likely not integrate well into a traditional public school because they will have gaps in their learning (but they will have much exposure to reading/writing/speaking another language).

I'm sharing all of this with you because as homeschoolers, we do not have to utilize the standard method of ps ed. We are free to choose whatever method works for our dc, which may or may not be unschooling. Public schools see students from all different backgrounds and children transitioning into standard-based ed often need extra help and time to integrate successfully.

IMO, it doesn't reflect you or your ed choices for your dc, it is just that ps is a very different (and some might say, very artificial) way of learning that takes a lot of getting used to in order to navigate successfully.

Best wishes!

[ocelotmom]

Originally Posted by ~Heyokha~

For example, when taking Art appreciation, I had NO concept of the "historical periods" the text was talking about. So while most of my peers focused on studying the actual art, I had to try to figure out what I was suppose to already know.

This kind of makes me wonder if you would have had such a high GPA if you hadn't been unschooled. I'm not an unschooler myself, and not trying to disregard your feelings, but I do wonder if your experience couldn't be reframed in a more positive manner.

Yes, most college students with a typical US high school education are going to have a basic grasp of world history and so forth, and will, at the very least, recognize terms like "The Middle Ages", "The Renaissance", and so forth and have a vague idea of when and what took place during those periods. However, unless they had a particular personal interest in the subject or an unusually enthusiastic teacher, chances are they're not going to know much beyond that baseline. And, because they know the bare basics, they're unlikely to even think of researching it further (or have the motivation to do so if they do think of it) and possibly discovering nuances or further historical background of relevance - something your background apparently left you willing and able to do.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ocelotmom

This kind of makes me wonder if you would have had such a high GPA if you hadn't been unschooled. I'm not an unschooler myself, and not trying to disregard your feelings, but I do wonder if your experience couldn't be reframed in a more positive manner.

Yes, most college students with a typical US high school education are going to have a basic grasp of world history and so forth, and will, at the very least, recognize terms like "The Middle Ages", "The Renaissance", and so forth and have a vague idea of when and what took place during those periods. However, unless they had a particular personal interest in the subject or an unusually enthusiastic teacher, chances are they're not going to know much beyond that baseline. And, because they know the bare basics, they're unlikely to even think of researching it further (or have the motivation to do so if they do think of it) and possibly discovering nuances or further historical background of relevance - something your background apparently left you willing and able to do.

This is a good point. One thing that frequently comes up in homeschool/unschool/public school/private school/alternative school dicussions is the "I did X, and had such-and-such deficiency when I switched to Y". The implication always seems to be that, had the person been doing Y all along, they wouldn't have had that deficiency, but would have still had all their strengths. There's also the "well, I discovered/became passionate about X in [fill in system/lack of system here]", with the implication that said passion would have never been discovered had they been doing Y. (I have seen this go both ways - "wouldn't have thought about this topic without such-and-such teacher" and "would never have had the opportunity to explore such-and-such if I'd been in school". There are other variants, too.) But, this is a false argument.

I believe that, if I'd been homeschooled or unschooled, I'd have kept the love of learning that the entire school process beat out of me. I truly believe that. But, I can't say it as a fact. Maybe I would have switched off for some other reason. I also believe my social anxieties and such would be better than they are, without my public school experiences, but I could be wrong about that, too. Maybe, even without the bullying and other stuff, I'd have become just as social phobic as I have. We know what did happen in our lives, but we don't know what would have happened if things had been different. (I see this with birth, too. There's "such-and-such happened, and if I'd been at home, my baby would have died", but maybe such-and-such wouldn't have happened at all. There's "I had my baby at home, and thank goodness, because if I'd been at the hospital, such-and-such would have happened", but such-and-such may not have happened - maybe you'd get the OB that every other OB there thinks is nuts, because he has a low section or induction rate.)

DD1 is later in learning to read than I expected (dh and I were both self-taught readers, and were both reading before kindergarten). It turns out she has severe astigmatisms. I knew she needed an eye exam for nearsightedness, but had no idea there were other visual issues. Part of me thinks, "if she'd been in school, they'd have caught this"...but that's not necessarily true. (I was nearsighted and couldn't see the blackboard from the back of the room and none of my teachers ever picked up on it.) Even if a teacher had told me that they thought dd1 was nearsighted, I may not have made the eye appointment any sooner than I did (lots going on with the new baby last year). Things may have been no different at all. DD1 also has perfectionism and frustration issues. Maybe a teacher could handle them better than me...and maybe a class with kids picking up reading faster than her would have made it worse. I can only deal with what is, not with what might have been if I'd been homeschooled, or ds1 had been, or if dd1 was in public school, or Waldorf, or whatever. Weighing the advantages and disadvantages of various methods isn't the same things as thinking we know what would have been, yk?

[Lisa1970]

I am unsure of your definition of unschooling and your definition of being behind. I don't know if you were the type of unschooler who let your children pick tv and video games all day. I am the type who says they can do what they want, it just cannot be noneducational TV or noneducational computer games.

As far as behind goes, I don't see how any 8 yr old could be behind unless they have learning disabilities and would have been behind anyway. Perhaps the school is just giving you a hard time so you will feel bad about homeschooling and you can be an example to others who homeschool?

[Lisa1970]

Originally Posted by marilynmama

Dar, I have been unschooling for 8 years now. I am aware of those things you mentioned. I was NOT prepared for my child to feel inferior, stupid, and be as utterly behind as she was/is. We tutored over the summer, it still wasn't enough (especially in math....you cant catch up 3-4 yrs worth over a summer ya know?).

I love my children and only want the very best for them! I feel like I have failed my children....I guess that is my main point.

I am suspecting she feels this way because the school and perhaps other students make her feel this way, not because she really is so far behind. My daughter went back to a public school and was bullied so bad and sexually harrassed horribly, that is what she was not prepared for. But academically, she was lightyears ahead of the other kids.

[Dar]

I'm returning this for further discussion.

I want to remind everyone that discussions about schools and school classrooms don't belong in this forum, except when they directly relate to homeschooling. For example, discussing challenges that an unschooled child might face if she returned to a public school classroom is fine, but discussing how hands-on school science classes generally are really isn't. I left some discussion about this in the thread, because it was such a lovely, respectful discussion, but from here on out please stick to discussing homeschooling or schooling issues directly related to homeschooling.

Thanks!

Dar

[myjo]

I lost a long post a few hours ago when this thread was locked, but I will try to make a condensed version.

I totally sympathize with the OP, as my story is somewhat similar.

Long story short, I had a rather bad experience with unschooling because my boys are not at all inclined to pursue learning the more important skills on their own, and they both have cognitive issues that made learning to read very difficult. I tried to provide an educationally diverse environment, lots of books, maps, globes, a microscope, feild trips, etc. But it wasn't working out.

It turns out that although unschooling really sounded beautiful to me after reading Holts books and a few others, I really deep down don't entirely agree with the philosophy. I think there are things that are more important to learn than others, and that kids won't necessarily just pick them up if you set a book on the table.

I ended up having to put my boys in PS because of their reading issues, and it was a very difficult transition after unschooling, then eclectic homeschooling. A couple teachers were quite prejudiced and made inappropriate comments to the boys. But they did get the extra help they needed, and they are great readers now. And they make more progress now because they are much less likely to blow off thier teacher's instructions than they were to do that to me.

I still believe strongly in home learning if it works for a family. I am bringing my middle school ds home this year because his school is very sub-par. But my two in elementary will probably stay there a bit longer so that they can get past the critical basic skills stage. If I was a different person, perhaps more patient, more energetic, more firm, I would attempt to homeschool them again during the elementary years. But what I'm doing now works better for us. And my kindergartener loves school and loves his teacher.

So the bottom line is you should only follow any educational theory as far as it works for both you and your child. If you, your child, or both of you are unhappy, or learning is not really taking place in the way that you as the parent expect it to, then a change is in order.

I guess that wasn't very condensed, was it! LOL

[Lisa1970]

Originally Posted by marilynmama

Thanks for the support I really just needed to vent and say what was on my mind and share our experience.

She was so far behind the other children that the only choices the school had was to put her into 2nd grade (and the school was full, we would have had to transport her wayyy across town into a crappy school. I was not willing to do that or traumatize her even more with yet another school).

It was not possible for her to "catch up" to her peers. And this is only 3rd grade! I cant even imagine how bad this would have been for my 7th grader...

Unschooling is just NOT compatible with PS in my opinion, at least not for us. I hope someone can learn from my experience. Things happen in life, things happened in my life that I was not prepared for and we felt we had no choice but to enroll her in school. I *thought* she was prepared and I was prepared for an initial adjustment, but not to this extent. Not at all. It wasn't fair to her and that is my fault.

Can you please share exactly how the public school managed to convince you that their kids who have been with them for the last 3 years are so far ahead of your child? Because I have known many times over, the public school trying to put up an act that a homeschooler is so seriously behind that they must go back in grades. They do this to make an example of the homeschooler and scare people out of homeschooling.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by elizawill

i agree with you actually. although we have always homeschooled, i can honestly say IRL all of our family & friends with public school experience also have lives that involve playtime, exploration, outings, fun, family time & lots of learning through everyday experiences.

I'm not an unschooler, but I did want to comment on this. In our year at public school, sure, I took my kids to museums and zoos and learning experiences and classes. Maybe once a month or so.

The school took them on a grand total of 1 field trip a year, which I chaperoned. They were at the zoo on the scheduled day, in the rain, for all of 1 hour. Sadly, I know from talking to some of the parents that there were definitely a few children that this was a very rare treat for them to go a zoo.

When I took my kids to a museum, we were there for 2-3 hours, and with massive crowds, which made it hard for them to really see the artwork close up. We certainly didn't see any of the special exhibits or take the time to really study anything. We did afterschool classes, about 1 per child, but YMCA level classes so if we missed one due to the child being exhausted and falling asleep, it wasn't too costly.

Since we've been homeschooling, we go to the museum or zoo a minimum of once a week, usually for 5-6 hours, and we leave when it starts getting crowded. We see a ridiculous amount more than we do when we go on the weekend to meet a schooled family. We now do an audition-only dance class, and we can schedule to make it work. We also do a few more classes per kid for the social aspects of them.

So yes, of course parents take their schooled children to museums and zoos and botanical gardens and such. But I suspect in many cases that they don't really know how very much they're missing by going on the weekends or after school. Were I to do school again, we'd take as many "sick" days as allowed and go to these kinds of places at non-crowded times when we can learn vastly more and spend more time at a more leisurely pace.

[~Heyokha~]

Originally Posted by ocelotmom

This kind of makes me wonder if you would have had such a high GPA if you hadn't been unschooled. I'm not an unschooler myself, and not trying to disregard your feelings, but I do wonder if your experience couldn't be reframed in a more positive manner.

Yes, most college students with a typical US high school education are going to have a basic grasp of world history and so forth, and will, at the very least, recognize terms like "The Middle Ages", "The Renaissance", and so forth and have a vague idea of when and what took place during those periods. However, unless they had a particular personal interest in the subject or an unusually enthusiastic teacher, chances are they're not going to know much beyond that baseline. And, because they know the bare basics, they're unlikely to even think of researching it further (or have the motivation to do so if they do think of it) and possibly discovering nuances or further historical background of relevance - something your background apparently left you willing and able to do.

I doubt it but anything is possible, I guess. Even if it was because I unschooled, it was a terrible way to get a high GPA, IMO. I felt inadequate and stressed out the entire time. To be honest, when I graduated, I felt like a survivor--like I had beat the odds.

That was *my* experience though, and not a reflection of the unschooling community at large. Each situation s unique---there are so many variables. I think a lot of unschoolers get it right. I love to read blogs and some of my favs are unschooling blogs.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

So yes, of course parents take their schooled children to museums and zoos and botanical gardens and such. But I suspect in many cases that they don't really know how very much they're missing by going on the weekends or after school.

I can probably count on one hand the number of museum/zoo trips my parents ever took me on. And my dad was a teacher. Actually, since we lived in Hawaii, I think most of the trips we DID take were because family was visiting us and wanted to play tourist.

Not saying that every family is like this. It's just my experience.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970

Can you please share exactly how the public school managed to convince you that their kids who have been with them for the last 3 years are so far ahead of your child? Because I have known many times over, the public school trying to put up an act that a homeschooler is so seriously behind that they must go back in grades. They do this to make an example of the homeschooler and scare people out of homeschooling.

A pp mentioned that her unschooled 9yo can't write his name. Another mentioned that her unschooled sister at 10 was illiterate. I imagined from the OP's description that it was something quite obvious like that: that her 8yo didn't know letter sounds, couldn't write or do simple computation. I don't see why any "convincing" from the school would have had to take place. Either the child had these skills or she didn't.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by zinemama

A pp mentioned that her unschooled 9yo can't write his name. Another mentioned that her unschooled sister at 10 was illiterate. I imagined from the OP's description that it was something quite obvious like that: that her 8yo didn't know letter sounds, couldn't write or do simple computation. I don't see why any "convincing" from the school would have had to take place. Either the child had these skills or she didn't.

If this were something obvious, I can't understand why the OP would be so shocked that her DD was that much behind. Surely, if my 9 year old still wasn't reading and I had to put her in a public school, I'd be preparing myself and her to the fact that she'd be behind and would need time to catch up. The OP sounds like their experience was sudden and shocking. Without more details, this is rather difficult to comprehend. The original post simply doesn't make much sense, other than the OP is frustrated with her situation and is venting.