Is there anything I can do about ex telling ds inappropriate things?

[StephandOwen]

Or am I pretty much out of luck?

Ex has recently started twice weekly phone calls with ds (hasn't seen him since March). He's actually (surprisingly) done all the calls so far. However, there has been things here and there that just perk up my ears and make me think WTH? (DS keeps the phone on speaker phone because he has autism and sensory issues so doesn't like noise right in his ear so whenever he is near me on the phone I can hear some of what is said).

Tonight dp and I were sitting outside on our patio eating dinner. DS was talking on the phone in the dining room, which is right by the patio door. As I was eating I hear ex say something like "my wife is mad at me". Wondering what the heck he was talking about, I walked closer to the door. He was telling ds all about how he went to a friends house to watch football all day and when he got home his wife was "very mad" at him and left. Seriously? WTF is that any of ds's business?

Ex sounded very obviously stoned (trust me, I know what he sounds like after he's been smoking the good stuff) so I took my dinner and sat in the dining room to finish eating and make sure nothing else inappropriate was said. Twice in the next 10 minutes ex told ds all about how he gets a whole week off work this week (paid) so he gets to stay home and "play video games and watch tv and nobody can tell me what to do". Uhhhh.... first of all that's totally insane to tell a 6 year old that. As if that's what he should aspire to Second of all- he is REFUSING to come down here for a weekend to see ds (remember- he's only seen ds twice for a total of 6 hours in the last year because he's skipped 16 out of the 18 days I've brought ds to Michigan in the past year). So he's refusing to come down here to see ds but can brag about how he has a week off work so he can sit at home and play video games and watch tv for a week. WTF?!? Seriously, get off your rump and see your child! ARGH!

Obviously I'm extremely frustrated. I had already started an email (haven't sent it) after he continued to tell ds over multiple phone calls that ds is going to his house with ex alone in October (which isn't any agreement we have so he shouldn't be telling ds this until/unless we do agree upon it). Oh, and let's not forget the "other mom" crap he pulled a couple weeks ago, thoroughly confusing poor ds. I will include this latest crap in the email but I'm wondering- do I have any leg to stand on? Obviously the Judge will frown upon ex having a week off work but still refusing to see ds during that time, but the Judge has been pretty lenient with him so far so.... don't really know what will happen there.

[StephandOwen]

Oh, I just thought of another one. DS was talking to ex about how his birthday is coming up in a few weeks. Ex told ds "well, I'll send you a card. Maybe I'll send you some money too. I don't know. But I'll definitely send you a card". WTF?!? Why do you tell a *6 year old child* that you might send them money, but you might not. So then when he opens the card and there isn't any money (because there won't be) he's going to be so disappointed! Or when ds is telling ex about this, that and the other thing that he wants ex is constantly telling him "I bet your mom and Jason will get it for you". WTH? Why are we teaching him that mom and Jason will buy him everything he wants? A) I'm not made of money and B) pick one of those things that he's telling you he wants and BUY IT FOR HIM! Ya know, a birthday present? I know, ds will be 7 soon and you've never once bought him a birthday present so it's a hard concept to wrap your head around, but good gracious!

[meemee]

aaaaaaaargh the problems never stop do they. a new situation means a whole new twist.

i have no idea about the legal aspect of things.

but i keep thinking as i read more and more of your stuff, this guy has no idea what to do. how to even have a conversation with an almost 7 year old. he is talking to him as if he is his buddy.

why is he 'telling'. why isnt he asking your ds.

[LoveOhm]

I don't think I would send the email just yet... I would run your options by your attorney. One thing that I feel your ex needs is to attend one of those PACT Sessions or something similar in your state. It's mandatory here when you are divorcing but it really addressed working together, communicating with the child about child things not logistics, etc. Here is some info.

"Parents and Children Together (PACT) is a program designed to help separating and divorcing parents work together more cooperatively and effectively. The goal is to help parents focus on their children's best interests. In special seminars taught at the Court, parents learn how to communicate more positively and parent more effectively. The PACT program also provides information regarding Family Court Services, mediation, and child custody evaluations. "

If there is no PACT class or similar area and even if there is I think I would push for some sort of parenting class. He clearly has no clue.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by LoveOhm

I don't think I would send the email just yet... I would run your options by your attorney. One thing that I feel your ex needs is to attend one of those PACT Sessions or something similar in your state. It's mandatory here when you are divorcing but it really addressed working together, communicating with the child about child things not logistics, etc. Here is some info.

"Parents and Children Together (PACT) is a program designed to help separating and divorcing parents work together more cooperatively and effectively. The goal is to help parents focus on their children's best interests. In special seminars taught at the Court, parents learn how to communicate more positively and parent more effectively. The PACT program also provides information regarding Family Court Services, mediation, and child custody evaluations. "

If there is no PACT class or similar area and even if there is I think I would push for some sort of parenting class. He clearly has no clue.

Here they call it a SMILE program (Start Making It Livable for Everyone). We were both ordered to take it when we first went to court 6 years ago (the Judge there orders all people divorcing with children or going through custody to take this class). I did it, last I heard he never did (but who knows, if he didn't he would have had a warrant out for his arrest so I'm assuming he did eventually do it).

But that's a good idea. I'll ask my attorney if we can ask the Judge to order ex take the program again because he's obviously not following it.

[LoveOhm]

Even if he did attend in the past given that now he is being somewhat engaged with O that we all have a "refresher"......

Not that I think you need it

[Phoenix~Mama]

Ugh, Steph.

I hope the judge takes note of the week vacation with zero plans to come visit his son!! Especially as that is what you have been pushing for so he can get his visit in October. So frustrating.



An an aside... does anyone know if PA has a program like these two?

[NolaRiordan]

I think you should be documenting these things in case there's ever a need to use them. But at this point I think the answer to your question is no, there's really nothing you can do about this. I could give you a list as long as your arm of inappropriate things my X has said to my kids. It's ridiculous stuff but according to my attorney the court would not get involved in this level of parenting. I just do the best I can to talk to the kids at my house about what they're hearing over there. My X has been through the parenting program. It made absolutely no difference. He just doesn't give a rip and no one can tell him anything about how to treat his kids.

[MissLotus]

My ex, although involved on a regular basis (lives close by) does the same thing - does NOT censor or edit himself or make his conversation child-appropriate. Doesn't care if he idly promises things that don't happen, talks to our son (!!!!!!) about how much child support is costing him... that's not even getting into how he's bad-mouthed me, etc., etc. But he thinks he's automatically a great dad simply because he didn't walk off into the sunset, and other people who see him and our son together think he's pretty swell too, so he is never going to get the message that it is not in our child's best interest to say inappropriate things or that he should improve in any way.

I have told ex to get some friends and talk to them if he has adult issues to contend with, but not to use our child as his sounding board. That just makes him do it more. I have pointed out that our divorce agreement specifically says that the parents (us) will not talk about adult, divorce-related problems to our child, etc.... but ex does it anyway, our son will be "fine" and he's a great dad. And as such talk does not directly constitute "abuse", then it's unlikely a court will do much about it. And so I do as much damage control as possible when I get wind of the things ex says. I know it's maddening and unfathomable for a parent to be so very thoughtless with their own child. But there it is, and I try to just be glad that at least my son knows he has one totally reliable parent (me!) and that ex's chaos is largely removed from our lives.

[Super~Single~Mama]

I have to say, even though I don't know your whole history, that I'm not entirely sure the judge has been all that lenient with your ex. Mostly b/c your ex hasn't had unsupervised visitation, but also, what is there to be lenient about? Your ex hasn't been involved AT ALL for how long? A judge can kick and scream all they want, but there isn't any way to *force* someone to be part of a kids life - so until now, the judge is probably like, whatever, I'll save it for something important.

Anway, I would at least talk to your lawyer about all this, she will be able to advise you about how to best bring it up with your ex (or at least in a way that won't piss off the judge). And, I know you're the queen of documenting, but take up that keyboard again and start keeping tabs on a few things.

It doesn't really count as eavesdropping since the phones on speaker (and therefore probably pretty loud).

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by thyra

A judge can kick and scream all they want, but there isn't any way to *force* someone to be part of a kids life - so until now, the judge is probably like, whatever, I'll save it for something important.

I know this is sometimes an unpopular opinion..... but I'd rather the opposite happen, actually. I'd rather the Judge tell ex to buzz off since he apparently is incapable of having any sort of meaningful relationship with ds. It's really started to tick me off that ex can disappear for years at a time and suddenly show up and demand time with ds. That's bull-sh*t and no judge should ever allow that.

But we all know how the courts like to give the absent parent (whether the mom or dad isn't the issue) every freaking possible chance to screw up (which screws up the child as well). Ex will probably be allowed to come and go out of ds's life for the next 11 years (ds turns 7 in a few weeks!) and no judge will say crap about it. We'll be expected to bend and conform to ex's whim.

[lilyka]

I don't think there is really anything you can do. All you can do is help your son process the information and relate the truth to him.

[GranoLLLy-girl]

OK, maybe I'm out of whack because really I haven't a clue about these things-- BUT--if you suspect drug use, can't you record the call?
It just seems like if there are things being said about the wife--or whatever it is that he is talking about--his adult relationships---that might be an issue as far as talking about stuff like that with a child.

I don't know. What do you think?

[LoveOhm]

Originally Posted by lilyka

I don't think there is really anything you can do. All you can do is help your son process the information and relate the truth to him.

Actually you can consider approaching your ex about allowing your DP to adopt O thus terminating his rights. I would still allow him to see O when you are in town and to chat with him on the phone so not completely cutting ties but the control would be yours and your DP's. If you consider this I would approach it like a business deal it saves him money since his contribution to O is going to be X amount more once you marry on X date, oh and if the wife is motivated by the money saving say it in front of her because she is going to flip her lid when she knows the increase to come.

[lilyka]

well...there is that

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by GranoLLLy-girl

OK, maybe I'm out of whack because really I haven't a clue about these things-- BUT--if you suspect drug use, can't you record the call?

It depends. In Michigan it's illegal to record a phone conversation without the consent of both parties. Anything you find is not admissible in court either.

In Kentucky it is NOT illegal to record a phone conversation with only the consent of 1 party (which would be me).

I live in Kentucky so the recording on my end would be legal.

Ex lives in Michigan and that's where the court case is through so the Judge would only know Michigan law.

So.... pretty much a sticky situation where it may or may not be legal and there's really no clear answer.

Federal law may apply when the conversation is between parties who are in different states, although it is unsettled whether a court will hold in a given case that federal law "pre-empts" state law, but either state may choose to enforce its own laws. Therefore it is better to err on the side of caution when recording an interstate telephone call.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by LoveOhm

Actually you can consider approaching your ex about allowing your DP to adopt O thus terminating his rights. I would still allow him to see O when you are in town and to chat with him on the phone so not completely cutting ties but the control would be yours and your DP's. If you consider this I would approach it like a business deal it saves him money since his contribution to O is going to be X amount more once you marry on X date, oh and if the wife is motivated by the money saving say it in front of her because she is going to flip her lid when she knows the increase to come.

I have to say that dp and I have considered this many times in the past couple years. DP is pushing for it to happen. But in a situation like we're in, could ex use that against me in court? If I ask him if he would terminate his rights to let dp adopt him, couldn't he go back to the Judge and say "look, she's trying to keep me from being a part of ds's life- she's even trying to get me to terminate my rights!". Wouldn't that risk the Judge seeing ME as the bad one and giving ex more time? That's my biggest fear with that whole thing is that it can come back and bite me in the butt.

[Holland73]

Perhaps, you can say it a bit more flippantly to test the waters.

If/when he balks at the news of his child support being raised (and whatever else is going to change) when you get married, you could always say to him, very casually (maybe with a bit of sarcasm), "Well, you can always terminate your rights and let dp adopt O, if the money is such a big deal to you!"

That way, if he says something to the judge, you could always counter... "I'm sorry, I spoke in sarcasm out of disappointment because M was making such a big deal about having to help support ds."

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

I know this is sometimes an unpopular opinion..... but I'd rather the opposite happen, actually. I'd rather the Judge tell ex to buzz off since he apparently is incapable of having any sort of meaningful relationship with ds. It's really started to tick me off that ex can disappear for years at a time and suddenly show up and demand time with ds. That's bull-sh*t and no judge should ever allow that.

But we all know how the courts like to give the absent parent (whether the mom or dad isn't the issue) every freaking possible chance to screw up (which screws up the child as well). Ex will probably be allowed to come and go out of ds's life for the next 11 years (ds turns 7 in a few weeks!) and no judge will say crap about it. We'll be expected to bend and conform to ex's whim.

I know. The problem is that the judge might get in trouble for this since it violates your ex's rights. Problem in these types of cases is that under case law parents have a fundamental right to the care and control of their children. Fundamental means that there has to be a damn good reason (damn good isn't good enough even - it has to be extraordinary circumstances) for a judge to say something like that. Or something like that. The judge has wide discretion, but there are certain things he can't do.

Also, your ex can TRY to use against you the fact that you approach him to terminate his rights so that your dp can adopt Owen, but really, what is that going to get him? Laughed out of court? He's seen his son for 6hours or something in a year? Or more? Seriously - if you do it right it may not count against you too badly. Obviously, if you go and start screaming at him about how you hate his guts and never want him to Owen again and he is the worst person you've ever met (all things you can legitimately feel towards him - you just can't SAY them!). But, if you put it in a way that is nice, respectful way (maybe going through his attorney to respect that he has representation, etc) it could work. Especially if you still offer him a relationship, just no responsibility.

You need to ask your lawyer about that though. And then you wouldn't be getting any child support of course (I know thats not your motivation - but if he said yes you'd need to be prepared for that).

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

I have to say that dp and I have considered this many times in the past couple years. DP is pushing for it to happen. But in a situation like we're in, could ex use that against me in court? If I ask him if he would terminate his rights to let dp adopt him, couldn't he go back to the Judge and say "look, she's trying to keep me from being a part of ds's life- she's even trying to get me to terminate my rights!". Wouldn't that risk the Judge seeing ME as the bad one and giving ex more time? That's my biggest fear with that whole thing is that it can come back and bite me in the butt.

Actually I think her proposal lets him off the hook while still leaving the door wide open for him to have some sort of relationship with his son.

but I would speak to your lawyer before making any proposals just in case.