Where is the line with eating 'too much'?

[sattygirl99]

And please don't say there is no such thing...

My 4 year old can out eat my husband, who eats a ton as it is... and often does. Where is the line between letting them choose and giving them healthy boundaries?

For example, last night for dinner he had 3 grilled cheese sandwiches and half a banana and then asked me for more to eat. Also 10-12 oz of water alongside it. My 19 month old had 2.5 sandwiches and half a banana.

For breakfast this morning, he's had 3/4 cups of cereal (no milk, just dry to hold him until I got breakfast made), roughly 4ish eggs (we use whites due to sensitivies so it's harder to figure out how many eggs everyone gets, I know they got more than I did) and a slice of toast and he's already asked me for more. So far, he's drank a 10 oz cup of water.

He will eat 3 and 4 plates of pasta, a fruit or veggie and STILL beg for more food and cry he's hungry. They aren't dehydrated, they drink nearly 100oz a day. Of water... They get 2 or 3 oz of pure orange juice watered down in a 10 oz cup after breakfast but that's all the juice they get. They are incredibly active but isn't 3 sandwiches extreme for a 4 yr old? I know it's surely expensive to keep up with their eating the way they do! A friend of mine with similar aged children made a comment about a child she knew eating 3 slices of pizza and how her own kids don't do that... Mine do... Mine will eat 3-4 whole slices of pizza plus a fruit/veggie.

I wouldn't say it's a phase... DS has been like this for a long time. Now he DOES have type 1 diabetes but it's controlled. I know he gets hungry more because of his blood sugars but where's the line? They aren't obese or even overweight... DS is actually a little small (37.5 inches tall and 32lbs) but always will be because the diabetes stunted him because they missed it for so long. DD is tall and thin (31-32 inches and maybe 25lbs at 19 month).


Am I wrong to cut him off at some point? There's no allergies that are preventing them from absorbing the food (they've been tested and show no physical signs either)... So basically they just eat... and eat... and eat...

Where is is healthy to stop them? Should I really just let them eat and eat until they pop? I'm not worried about them in terms of weight, but I'm concerned about creating unhealthy portion sizes at a young age that will follow them for the rest of their lives. As a society, we already eat waay too much and my kids are outeating THOSE portions (especially my 4 yr old) at such a young age.... What will it be when they're 13? 20? Healthy eating habits start young... right? They love fruit and veggies and they do eat ALOT of them so I guess I'm lucky there!

Anyone else with massive eaters? How do you handle it...? How do you handle a child who out eats most adults around us?

I need to e-mail our pedi and ask her opinion too but I wanted some insight from other mama's too.

Thanks for your insight!

[Youngfrankenstein]

Okay, that is a ton of food.

Please, please, please don't think I'm putting you down, I'm just offering $.02:

I don't think I'd give 3 grilled cheese sandwiches. (assuming you are talking about a whole, 2 slice sandwich). I'd give one with fruits and veggies, a yogurt, or even some pretzels too. Some people, maybe your toddler, would like more variety at each meal with a smaller portion. I know I could eat a whole box of mac and cheese but if I eat a portion of mac and cheese with other foods too, I'm not going to eat as much mac and cheese.

I just see the diet you are describing as very very carb heavy. If he's truly hungry, cram him full of veggies.


ETA: I just re-read that he has type 1 diabetes? Or is that a sibling? If it's him, I would get dietary counseling from an expert or research the heck out of it yourself.

[sattygirl99]

The problem is if I give him 1 sandwich, an apple and carrots, he eats it all and cries he's still hungry. Even if I have him wait 10 min or drink some water, he still cries about being 'so hungry'.

He is a diabetic but our nutritionists have told us to allow him to eat as a normal child would. She actually told us to give him LESS fruit and veggies because she feels fruit/veggie with every meal is too much.

And yes, 3 sandwiches was 3 whole, 2 slice sandwiches... LOL. He eats the same way though if we give him meat and veggies... He'll eat 3 times the amount I feel is 'normal'. He's an eater (always has been, he was a 45oz a day baby when he was a baby, even though we pace fed and everything).

My DD can be an eater too, but she goes through spurts... Like she had 2.5 sandwiches lsat night but I'm pretty sure she's hitting a growth spurt right now. She doesn't eat like this all the time... He does... 95% of the time... He just eats... and eats... and eats... He RUNS all day long (he's incredibly hyper) and isn't gaining a ton of weight despite his intake. High metabolism runs in DH's family (as in DH can't ever gain weight, even if he eats ALL day long and his mom is a twig... In fact, all the aunts/uncles are tiny/skinny people) so I'm wondering if he's really just burning it all running... he hardly ever sits, he's constantly running and playing and jumping and yelling and singing. I wish I had 1/4 of his energy lemme tell ya, lol.

When I brought the food issue up to our endo a few months back her response was to follow his lead, he'll eat what he needs to eat. But how can he possibly NEED all of what he's taking in?

I'm so confused... I could give him 1 sandwich, fruit/veggie and some pretezels or something but he'll just cry he's so hungry... For hours until the next meal.

[Pavlovs]

I'm chiming in here because my son is also T1 diabetic. Is your son on shots? Does he get to snack between meals? I was thinking that if he was only eating at mealtimes them perhaps he's very hungry by that time. My son can eat at will because he is on a pump, so he eats plenty in between meals. I also agree with the PP about offering more protein and veggies. Protein can do a lot to keep food in the tummy long after it's been eaten. Veggies are a great in-between-meal snack that has no carbs (no shots needed). Also, the quality of carbs has a HUGE affect on blood sugars. I only have whole grain bread in the house, usually use whole grain pasta and am trying so hard to get my son to like brown rice. I almost never offer him white rice, as it spikes his blood sugars as if I just fed him a plate of marshmellows.

[Twinklefae]

I would also suggest more protein- it lasts longer and makes you feel fuller than carbs. Veggies are great for nutrients, but not so good for filling you up, I find.

I would let him eat at will, but I would also try to make sure that he's not asking for food/eating because he's bored. That's my DS's new trick. If I say no to the TV or something else, he's suddenly STARVING. What he really wants is the attention and activity of me getting him a snack. Suggesting he play with playdough or colour or read a book works just as well.

[sattygirl99]

Yes, he's on shots... I want him on a pump but our endo has (what we believe are) unrealistic expecatations that his A1C needs to be 6 before he can pump. He's well managed but to get to 6, he'd have to be low A LOT.

He gets snacks in between most of the time (not always, because he'll refuse what he can have, is limited on how much cheese he can eat because of dairy issues, etc.) and it doesn't change how much he eats at a meal. Drives me nuts!

We do whole grain, whole wheat bread... We eat a combo of brown and white rice (mostly brown) but we don't get a sugar spike from white rice (apparently not ALL diabetics react to bleached grains and he's one of them... for now). The only thing that's really adverse to his sugar is chocolate... Which I was warned at diagnosis that chocolate messes with sugar.

I really think his activity level plays a huge part in it.. He constantly runs. He never sits unless I put him in time out or yell at him that he needs to sit and chill out. This child constantly goes for 8-10 hours a day. He's constantly moving in one form or another. It drives mama nutso because I wish he'd just sit for a few min and color or read a book but even then he jumps all over the place.

Protien is a little tough... We eat chicken but very little red meat. He won't eat tuna, we can't eat whole eggs (just whites). Dairy has to be limited or else he gets the runs. I try to incorporate protein into every meal but it doesn't always work.

I've been trying to cut out cereal as a meal because it's a filler and not really long lasting... He's not happy with that. Day before yesterday he had 4 packets of oatmeal for breakfast. He's hungry and I don't know what to do... There are only so many low/no carb things he CAN eat... And when you can't eat eggs or cheese in excess and the child isn't fond of lunchmeat or meat much in general, you get stuck... He has a small snack allowance which doesn't help. The only thing I can think is to start giving him more insulin than needed and then give him a normal snack with carbs to feed the insulin I gave. I don't want to do that but maybe then it would cut down on his intake at meals if he could have say 20-25 grams per snack instead of 10 (and even 10 sometimes sends him high).

Veggies still have carbs... He can only eat like 8 carrots before he hits his snack allowance ... 8 carrots isn't much...

The diabetes makes it really tough... . I wish our endo would let us pump but she won't until we reach 6 as an A1C even though I've been told by other endo's 6 is waaay too low for a 4 yr old.

Thanks for the insight ladies! I def feel like he's overeating at meals but I don't know how to space it out when he can't have more than 8 or 10 gram snacks in between meals. Even before bed, the most I can give him without sending him sky high is 15 grams.

[sattygirl99]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae

I would let him eat at will

I can't let him eat at will... He's a diabetic on insulin shots. As it is he gets 6 shots a day.. If I let him eat at will, he'll end up with 10 or more shots a day.

[Twinklefae]

Sorry, by eat at will I meant eat as much as he likes at meals.

What about alternative sources of protein like peanut butter or beans? (I imagine beans aren't great for the diabetes, but am not sure.) And honestly, some red meat might not go amiss for a high energy child.

It sounds hard, and like you are doing the best you can. I'm just throwing out suggestions, and I hope they help.

[sattygirl99]

Ah OK, I misunderstood what you meant by at will, lol. Most people mean, let them eat whenever they want, which I can't do.

He won't eat beans... At all. Even if they're mixed into something, he picks them out. He'll only eat PB on a sandwich... He's not a dip kid... I wish I could hand him an apple and PB and have him eat both but he won't.

We can't afford to eat much red meat... It's much more expensive than chicken or turkey (at least here it is, I buy it when it's a good sale) so it's a rarity that we have it. We use ground beef in some dishes and he just picks around it. He'll eat chicken but getting him to eat a cheeseburger (which we do sometimes when we have them) is like pulling teeth. He's never been a red meat eater... DD is but not him. Such a weird kid cuz I LOVE steak and don't get to eat it often enough because it's just so expensive.

Thanks ladies! When I gave him his insulin this AM, I allowed him enough extra to cover about 20ish grams of a snack in an hour or so. That probably will help in the long run... I know that eating 8 carrots and some cheese wouldn't keep me filled during meals either so the snack issue is probably the problem at the end of it all. I kind of figured as much but I get lost in the numbers of keeping his diabetes managed and allowing him to be a normal kid...

[Pavlovs]

Wow, your endo is insane. There is no way to safely get a small child to an A1c to 6 without substantial lows, not the mention that the pump isn't a reward. If you had a great A1c on shots, then why would you switch to the pump at all??? The pump is a tool to get to a lower A1c, not a carrot to be dangled in front of you. Sheesh, ok off my high horse.

Carrots are one of the few veggies that do have carbs (peas and corn also) but what about other veggies with a high fat dip or hummus (hummus has protein too) to fill his tummy between meals. Broccoli and cauliflower lightly steamed and served with butter are good, too. You certainly are limited on protein with the no meat and little dairy - hmmm. Hummus is all I can think of to help.

Does he tolerate shots? If he's taking a shot for snacks anyway, then don't hold back on how many carbs the snacks is. There is nothing wrong with using a lot of insulin - it's not something that will ever harm his body. It amazes me how much insulin my son uses, especially compared to when he was a baby (he was dx'd at 6 months old). Yesterday was his birthday, so no holds barred, and he was getting 3 units at a time for treats! LOL and he was still running high, come to think of it.

Is there way you can find an endo that is more pump friendly? Our son was put on the pump at dx (and at 6 months old, to boot). It's so old school to think that the pump isn't the best tool for diabetes - it's the newest technology, so why not use it? Heck, get the pump that also has a continuous glucose monitor attached (the mini med pump has thing) so you can watch his sugars all day long! Especially with a young child, when it's sooo very important to have their sugars in control. I'm still confused as to you "needing" to have his A1c at 6 - usually that's something adults strive for, and most endos want young kids in the 7's specifically because the lows are extra bad to have when a child's brain is growing.

[just_lily]

Given your child's diabetes, I really think you need medical help here. If your endo is unsupportive, can you get an appointment with another one? Your nutritionist doesn't sound very helpful either.

Not sitting down for 10 hours straight every day sounds a little excessive as well. Has your son had any behavioural evaluations?

I think you need to follow your instincts here mama. Your gut is telling you something isn't quite right and I would start pushing his medical team until you get an answer. Keep a food log so that you can show them exactly how much he is eating in a day. Their concept of 'a lot' may be quite different than yours.

[fruitfulmomma]

Can he handle butter? Or another good high fat source like avocados or coconut oil or something like that? Fat makes you feel fuller and may help him start to self-regulate.

ETA: Another thought... what about gluten? He appears to be eating a lot of it and often children who can't tolerate will crave it.

[LadyCatherine185]

The amount sounds like a lot-ish, but my 2 year old eats a lot too. The breakfast amount doesn't really sound like that much. Cereal and toast do not fill very well, and 4 egg whites isn't going to do much either. There isn't much fat at all in that meal. It does sound like he is eating too many carbs, which won't fill him up or sustain him for long. I would look into ways of getting more protein and fat into him. What about a smoothie? I make one for my DS with yogurt and coconut milk mixed together. You could add avocado, banana, and other nutrient rich filling foods. Another thing I do is offer the protien and veggie/fruit first, and if he is still hungry, then he can have some carbs/fillers. What about oatmeal? It is a grain but it has a lot of fiber and some protien and helps keep me full when I eat it.

I agree with the PP's that you need to consult with a professional about his diet as well, due to the diabetes. It is my understanding that with diabetes grains need to be limited, and need to be eaten with protien.

[cristeen]

It sounds to me like he isnt getting nearly enough fat and protein in his diet. Both trigger satiation, and both are crucial for proper brain development in children. He's loading up on grains, and a lot of processed grains at that. If i were to focus my diet on grains, i could easily eat that much or more, which is exactly why i dont. I do not tolerate wheat well. When i eat it, i eat a *lot* of it. You need to find other soyrces of protein and fat that he can/will eat. Ask in the nutrition forum for ideas, and id suggest asking in frugality fof ideas on your budget, because while i realize things are tight for a lot of people right now, in the long run, its going to be more expensive to feed him this way (between volume, and health).

I also second that a new endo and a new nutritionist are in order. Both seem to be pretty clueless.

[sattygirl99]

Thanks ladies!

He's not gluten intolerant. We were all GF for a while last year and it made no difference in the amount he ate. He's also been tested and was negative.

He will eat oatmeal but he seems to eat a ton of it. Im going to try smoothies with him but can't use yogurt, its dairy. But I could use almond milk and then add bananas and avacados. Maybe I can hide some protein in there somewhere with beans.

I gave him a snack between bfast and lunch and it seemed to help. He ate a tuna sandwich (protein woot) and some cheese filled pasta. Yes I double carbed lunch, he didn't have much in terms of carbs this AM though. He went away playing without edven asking for more food so maybe I just need to give him extra insulin at bfast to allow for a snack. He doesn't get an extra shot for snacks unless he exceeds the card limit he can have. He wont dip into anything so hummis is out. Im going to have to learn how to hide protein and fat filled stuff in other foods. He's picky too which makes it so hard! Thanks god dd eats anything! I will just have to get more creative and maybe talk to some vegetarian/vegans about how they do it. We avoid soy too so that's an extra challenge. I know I could get him to do smoothies so I can def add in more there.

He did alot better today with the extra snack though.

What about adding coconut oil to smoothies for fat? Or olive oil? I totally agree his diet is lacking fats, its just hard to get him to eat things that are fat/protien filled. Dang picky child! DD eats anything thank goodness! we could all benefit from protein smoothies though so I think that'll be good.

In terms of behavioral issues, he doesn't have any issues. He's just an active, hyper child. He really needs to be outside every day but this summer has been so nasty hot and code red air quality. He does tons better if he can be outside and run. I was a hyper child too. His sugar doesn't help, when he's high he's more hyper. I shouldn't say he never sits... he does, he's just not happy sitting still. DH is the same way... he hates being still.


Thanks ladies for all your insight. A new endo is on our list but they are all on waitlist right now.

[Twinklefae]

Glad to hear that the snack helped. If you are doing smoothies, try some hemp based protein powder thrown in. Coconut oil would be great too.

Adding butter to foods he already likes can help too.

[LadyCatherine185]

DS is dairy intolerant too, we actually use soy yogurt in his smoothies (though I see you don't use soy either). You could definitely add coconut or olive oil to his smoothies. Coconut milk has a lot of good fats in it, too. Definitely try sneaking stuff in. Will he eat quesadillas? You can sneak lots of stuff in those.. beans, spinach, etc. Even into his grilled cheese sandwiches. My friend made some awesome quesadillas for us the other night, all they had in them were cheese, white rice, and shredded chicken. They were really filling and easy to make. Do you have a food processor or blender? You could grind food, like beans, up really small so that he doesn't even know it is there and add it to his foods.

FWIW, my DS doesn't ever sit still either.

[cristeen]

Hummus doesnt have to be a dip. Make it thick and use it as a spread (think pb), Or spoon it into a pita... thin it w some water or extra oil and use it as a dressing for veggies/salad.

For smoothies, instead of ice/water or even almond milk, id use coconut milk. Plenty of good fats there. You can freeze it into cubes if you need to. Its also easier to work w than coconut oil in smoothies.

I would also ask on the nutrition forum about hiding protein. I know theres a black bean brownie recipe floating around thats supposed to be excellent.

[painefaria]

can you do baked chicken legs? DS loves them.
we also put hummus in lettuce cups like little wraps and add other things like tomatoes or I will make little cucumber sandwiches with hummus in them. We also substitute Hummus in sandwiches instead of Mayo.
What about nuts? A handful of Almonds has a decent amount of fiber, protien, and fats.
I agree with adding things to smoothies or making soup. DS will eat anything that we pass off as a smoothie

As for the soup you can make your own broth from left over chicken bones and add vegetables that are on their way out so it may not cost a bunch.
Quinoa is a grain that also has a lot of protien. It is filling and versitile. we have eaten it in salads, soups, and made an egg custard with it (think rice pudding).
Good luck

[sattygirl99]

Thanks everyone!

He does eat chicken... He just resists red meat. I realized as you all posted that he is absolutely missing significant fat and protein throughout the day. He gets some but not enough and I bet if I add more, he'll be much more satisfied. He also is just an eater and that's fine, but I really need to ensure he's eating decent meals with enough protein and fat and not just empty stuff.

So far today he's had:
roughly 3 eggs (whites but the equiv of 3 or 4 eggs)
1 slice of toast with butter

Plain apple slices (snack)

Tuna sandwich
Cheese filled pasta
Carrots

Wheat crackers topped with peanut butter (snack)
Fruit snacks (MIL was trying to correct a low BG... she shoulda used juice but oh well lol)

2 salisbury steak patties
1/2 cup of sour cream and cheese potatoes (mashed) with butter
carrots

half an apple topped with several tablespoons of peanut butter melted with honey (then a little bit of honey squirted over them all) and probably a small baggie of mixed nuts (I have almonds, peanuts, pistachios and walnuts but I don't know what he's going to pick from it) Bedtime snack

He's not screaming he's hungry (he DID say 'I'm still hungry' as he was finishing the PB/Honey mix in the bowl but I told him he needed to let all that food hit his tummy and I bet he wouldn't be hungry anymore in a little bit)... so I guess I'm getting it right with pushing the protein (like I had him eat all his meat BEFORE I gave him anything else so I could ensure he'd eat the protein/fat he needs.

Tomorrow morning I'm going to make him a smoothie... I don't have avacado but I have coconut milk in a can that I'm going to freeze into cubes overnight, plus fruit... Banana's are good right? I figured I could do the milk, some peanut butter, some banana and some strawberries and blueberries. I wonder if I could hide some white kidney beans into it?

What do you think ladies?

Thank you for all the suggestions! He's not huge on quesadillas... But he'll eat anything on a sandwich, lol. I'm not sure why he resists the tortilla but oh well. He also won't eat soup. He'll eat some stews I make but I have to drain almost nearly all the liquid. Quinoa is a bit out of my price range. I was thinking I may try adding pureed beans to a quesadilla or even a sandwich.. Like a spread.

Anyone have any good hummis recipes? That are cheap to make? We're a one income family, we don't have a ton of money so I need to pack a punch with small $$ to work with. We do get WIC so any way I can use beans, brown rice and cheese are sure fire ways in our house.

Ya'll are awesome!