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Weimar Germany and Food

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I saw this site w/charts from Weimar Germany the other day. It's kept me awake nights since then. I think of it at random times during the day and it gives me chills. Considering how many of us struggle with food prices now, I cannot imagine the desperation that one would feel at the height of Weimar-type inflation.

In 1913 Germans spent 30% on rent and 30% on food. In 1923 they spent 0.2% on rent and 91.6% on food.

http://www.nowandfutures.com/weimar.html

Scroll down to:

Table 6
Expenditures of a Three Person Household

I pray that Warren Buffet is right and that we are truly going to see a "huge recovery across all of our businesses right now."

http://www.businessinsider.com/buffe...ght-now-2010-9
post #2 of 31
I can't believe that food prices column! Out of this world!

There are so many conflicting viewpoints about where the economy is headed even among competent economists that it makes my head spin sometimes. But I don't see how there could be a "huge recovery across all of our businesses right now" when the job outlook is still so abysmal. We are nowhere near where we should be as far as jobs in a healthy economy and to fix that is not going to take overnight.
post #3 of 31
Thread Starter 
I was reading something about available jobs. Apparently, there ARE jobs out but just not 'middle class' type jobs.

For example, there's a glut of college degreed job seekers, but not enough machinists, plumbers, electricians, etc.

IDK, my 18yos wants to be a math teacher/coach. Several of his coaches/principal think this is a good idea because a coach that can teach a core subject will have high demand. Teachers that teach fluff classes are the ones being laid off now. But in five years? What will be the demand for his chosen career?

We will always need electricians and plumbers and often they make more than degreed folks.

Ugh.
post #4 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
We will always need electricians and plumbers and often they make more than degreed folks.
I agree. We need both in our line of business and literally need to beg the few that are in our area to show up at job sites. Where I live, a skilled electrian or plumber could do very well for themselves.
post #5 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caneel View Post
I agree. We need both in our line of business and literally need to beg the few that are in our area to show up at job sites. Where I live, a skilled electrian or plumber could do very well for themselves.
A lot of them are aging out, too.

We've told our SIL this. He's supposed to be going to school for something but hasn't made up his mind yet.
post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
For example, there's a glut of college degreed job seekers, but not enough machinists, plumbers, electricians, etc.

-----

We will always need electricians and plumbers and often they make more than degreed folks.
My husband is a union electrician. In our area (major metropolitan city) there are currently 900 electricians out of work. The current wait time for a job is about a year. When you get laid off you go to the back of the line and have to wait for your number to come to the top. There is so little commercial construction right now, which is primarily what union electricians do. The construction field has been hit really hard. People just aren't building homes and new buildings like they used to. There is home improvement stuff going on but, that just doesn't employ the same number of people as a skyscraper or new housing complex would.

But yeah, he does make a decent income with benefits and doesn't have a degree. It's really a great option for someone that doesn't want to spend the money on a degree, wants to start earning immediately (you get paid while you apprentice) and loathes the idea of sitting behind a desk.

And the food thing just freaks me out. We've started a pantry just because the economy is so wonky right now.

91.6% on food, wow.
post #7 of 31
Thread Starter 
A lot of states are 'Right to Work' states and electricians wouldn't have that problem, Lucy. He might make less money but he would be free to make his own way, yk?
post #8 of 31
I hear you Usually Curious. However, my understanding (such that it is) is that right to work states make less, have fewer benefits and less protections. I definitely have issues with the union, but being a member and receiving the pay, etc. that goes along with that has been huge for our family. Of course, if my husband did get laid off he'd be looking into traveling for work. I'm just praying the economy starts turning around (or at least stops getting worse) so we don't have to go down that road. At the end of the day you gotta do what you gotta do.
post #9 of 31
My DH is a journeyman electrician and in our area, it is not the best. He was laid off for much of last year, luckily he had great UI benefits, BUT that ran out in April and his hours were so much less from the new base year it was nearly a $700 drop in his benefits. He isn't a union electrician, there are very few in our rural area.

He got lucky and got new job, but seriously his hours are half of what they used to be. Things are tight right now, it's just nothing like it was a few years ago with the construction trades.

My sister just graduated with a degree in accounting and finance and she hasn't really had any luck finding any job worthwhile.

Those figures are crazy.
post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
Maybe mechanics have a better employment outlook?

When people cannot afford new cars they must have their old cars fixed, right?

I can foresee a time when all spending is frozen. Did you notice on the chart that they spend 0.2% on rent? That's a lot of homelessness and/or extreme multi-generational living!
post #11 of 31
I don't get your point about the graphs. A lot of things happened between 1913 and 1923 in Germany that haven't happened in the U.S. to date. Such as starting and losing WWI. Being occupied and losing a significant amount of territory, including Alsace are other events that also have not happened. They had to pay war reparations and part of the way they did that is by devaluing their currency.

How do the graphs in this book at all apply to modern-day US?
post #12 of 31
I feel like I'm living in my own little bubble here. Is the US really that bad off? Are there really so many people out of work? Is it really on the brink of collapse? Or is it a bunch of fear mongering, or just certain areas that are having trouble being focused on and not everyone across the country?

I'm in Canada and I don't see this going on. DH had some possible trouble with work loss 1.5 years ago but things have settled down since then.... There are jobs here, people are working and if they leave one job, they're able to find another. *Knock on wood*

A big thing is that I've stopped watching tv/news so I tend to pick up info online or through John Stewart and Stephan Colbert.
post #13 of 31
It is not fear-mongering; it is fact. The kind of money system that we have across the world is a "fiat" system which means that our money represents the good faith of the governments and the people to honor its value - unlike physically valuable coins, or currencies that represent actual assets like gold/silver, as if a dollar was a coupon that could be redeemed at the bank for those things (as it used to be but no longer is). A "backed" system doesn't have the same growth needs as a "fiat system, but I believe all "backed" systems in the world have converted to "fiat" over the past several decades.

A "fiat" economy requires continued economic growth - exponential growth, which means it has to keep doubling, not just growing - to not collapse. So far there has been enough energy (oil, coal, etc) available to support this kind of growth, but we are already seeing a limit to how much and how fast energy can be extracted and made available - all over the world. Energy limits will slow growth, and slower growth makes it more likely that the currency will collapse.

The stimulus efforts, which create more money to pump into the economy, have the undesirable effect of lowering the value of ALL the money (more money in circulation = less value for each unit of money). When people talk about the government "printing money," they are talking about the stimulus programs and this issue.

Still I think "collapse" is an extreme end and that this really should not be the focus (maybe the use of that word is a bit of sensationalism?) The fact is this: When energy limits, which we have not previously felt, start slowing down economic growth all over the world, the effects will be widespread. Some likely effects are: higher costs of food and other necessities, rising taxes, decreased municipal services (police, schools, etc), decreased infrastructure maintenance (roads, bridges, etc), decrease in value of traditional investments (stocks, bonds, 401Ks, etc), people having less to spend on goods and services because prices and taxes have gone up, people out of work because other people have less to spend on everything...

Jobs can only exist when people have money to spend, and much of the current job market is for things other than basic necessities. When times are tight, jobs are pared back to those providing necessities and the other jobs get dissolved.

These things will happen no matter what currency your country uses, because they are all tied together and in some ways are all the same (they are all tied to the US dollar as the reserve currency).

You mention that you are in Canada. It is possible that Canada will feel these effects later than some areas of the world because of Canada's relatively rich natural resources (oil, uranium, etc) compared to other countries. So you might watch this unfold in other countries for awhile before you see it in your own life.

No one knows exactly how this will unfold, when the effects will begin to be recognized publicly, how fast or how slow it will happen, or how many years it will stretch over. Could be soon and fast, could be far-off and slow, could happen as "a series of short, sharp shocks," the earliest of which we have already experienced. (In the US, for example, there was a significant oil price spike in fall of 2008.) Could be in the next five years, could hold off until the next generation, but it seems likely that we will feel the effects within our lifetime and even within the next decade.

I don't see this as doom, I see it as eyes-wide-open. If we know it is coming and understand why it is inevitable, we can think about how to weather it best. Hopefully enough people will realize this is happening and technology will advance to allow us to make intentional changes (to our expectations, to how we use fuel, to how we use money, etc) that will ease the effects of this process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherAtHome View Post
I feel like I'm living in my own little bubble here. Is the US really that bad off? Are there really so many people out of work? Is it really on the brink of collapse? Or is it a bunch of fear mongering, or just certain areas that are having trouble being focused on and not everyone across the country?

I'm in Canada and I don't see this going on. DH had some possible trouble with work loss 1.5 years ago but things have settled down since then.... There are jobs here, people are working and if they leave one job, they're able to find another. *Knock on wood*

A big thing is that I've stopped watching tv/news so I tend to pick up info online or through John Stewart and Stephan Colbert.
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherAtHome View Post
I feel like I'm living in my own little bubble here. Is the US really that bad off? Are there really so many people out of work? Is it really on the brink of collapse? Or is it a bunch of fear mongering, or just certain areas that are having trouble being focused on and not everyone across the country?
A little time spent reading the bureau of labor statistics site would show you this is not just fear mongering. Parts of CA are at 25% unemployment and Nevada is about 15% just for example. And the unemployment numbers are not even fully accurate since some are not included. Our deficit has skyrocketed in the last 2 years and home foreclosures are hitting 2 million.
post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by amyamanda View Post
A "fiat" economy requires continued economic growth - exponential growth, which means it has to keep doubling, not just growing - to not collapse. So far there has been enough energy (oil, coal, etc) available to support this kind of growth, but we are already seeing a limit to how much and how fast energy can be extracted and made available - all over the world. Energy limits will slow growth, and slower growth makes it more likely that the currency will collapse.
This I know and believe. DH and I are working towards having a simpler life/less tied to the system for existence (although it's really hard!)

What I'm wondering is the US really as far down the crapper as some people say? Is the whole nightmare widespread or are the 'bad' pockets being focused on to create some sort of political drama?

I wonder because we're not so cut off from the US as you'd expect. We feel it when things aren't right. That's why I'm saying that 1-2 years ago things were sort of up in the air/crazy but have settled since then... which again makes me wonder if things are as bad as you hear or if it's a lot of hype.

I don't mean to stir things up or to create drama, I'm truly curious and trying to sort this out in my mind. I guess to see if I should be worried or not. That's why I'm asking.
post #16 of 31
I think Canada is more stable than the US right now which may account for the difference.

What scares me about all this is the Shadow Stats guy is saying hyperinflation is going to hit the US within 6-9 months. This guy has been interesting to follow the last few years and I often found his analysis to be accurate.

I wish I could afford the newsletter.

V
post #17 of 31
2 million foreclosures is not a lot of hype.
post #18 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherAtHome View Post
I feel like I'm living in my own little bubble here. Is the US really that bad off? Are there really so many people out of work? Is it really on the brink of collapse? Or is it a bunch of fear mongering, or just certain areas that are having trouble being focused on and not everyone across the country?
Well I know in my area, yeah it is pretty bad, but the county I live in is pretty poor anyway. There are MANY construction workers here that at the top of the bubble were getting top dollar and booked out for years, now they all scramble to try to get one job. My DH was fully supporting us 2 years ago, with great pay, we didn't have money troubles, now we are struggling with both of us working and not even making what he did. Last year it hit us BIG TIME, it hit our whole area and state. I know of friends who haven't worked in 2 years, who have families. My uncle who is in Western WA and has been busy with his commercial roofing company now has to take whatever job he can. My other uncle and friends have furlough days and some have furlough weeks. Yeah it isn't that awesome.

We are now getting FS, we also got heating assistance, we never qualified for any of that before. I'm thankful we can get it, but things are pretty funky for everyone I know right now.
post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
Maybe mechanics have a better employment outlook?

When people cannot afford new cars they must have their old cars fixed, right?

I can foresee a time when all spending is frozen. Did you notice on the chart that they spend 0.2% on rent? That's a lot of homelessness and/or extreme multi-generational living!
I don't know historically what actually happened, but I would not assume rampant homelessness if we had hyperinflation situation. Both rents and housing prices would fall. .
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherAtHome View Post
I feel like I'm living in my own little bubble here. Is the US really that bad off? Are there really so many people out of work?
Currently my MIL, my brother, and two of our friends are out of a job. These are all hard-working people, and this would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.
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