Segregating by grade at the playground

[JSerene]

We were at the playground this week and a group of kids in 1st grade ran away from my 5 year old dd as she tried to join their group. They separated themselves because they are in first grade and she is not (I could hear them talking). These are kids who played with her here and there all summer (not friends, but neighborhood kids we see regularly). Another mom commented on it as well, noting her dd expressed great distress at having to sit next to a kindergartener on the bus that day.

I find this new dynamic distressing and I blame it on the structuring of school.

Any similar experiences? Comments?

[ollyoxenfree]

Sorting by age/grade probably has its sources in school structuring. I find though that children at that age are often sorting - girls vs. boys, kids who live on one street vs. kids who live on another, kids with curly hair vs. kids with straight....

They are at a stage where they've learned to classify different categories (colours, shapes, sizes, etc.). There's a reason why kids that age love dinosaurs, and rock collections and crazes like Pokemon. It spills over into their socializing.

Encouraging them to understand that we sort objects, but not people is good. Recognizing commonalities between people is important.

As for school, does your school offer some multi-age groupings? My kids attended schools that made an effort to mix ages/grade groups. There were lots of activities like primary choir and lunch-time soccer baseball (a cross between soccer and baseball played on the school diamond) and garden club that mixed the kids up. It helps.

[mamazee]

It could be simply because they're used to sorting by age at school, but it sounds like it could be exclusionary play, in which case it would be a form of bullying. Were the other parents there? Regardless of the cause, if I were there, I'd make some cheerful comment like, "Let's all play and have fun together!" or something. Though I know it's harder to do if you're the excluded child's parent.

[JSerene]

No, the school doesn't mix up the grades at all.

My dd is 5, but not in kindergarten. I held her back this year, then plan to homeschool. This certainly sets her apart from the other girls.

Further separating her is the feeding tube she has running continuously. The other mother, seeing them exclude her, asked if I could hide the tube better, which hadn't occurred to me and I don't think is possible.

I see the point of kids at this age naturally sorting/categorizing, but they didn't do it at all before the start of school.

My solution at the time was to have my dd bring out a unique toy that everyone could enjoy to attract them back to her. Unfortunately, they took over the toy and ignored her. At that point the other mother advised them to let her play too, but she gave up. She said, "it's okay, they can play with it, I'll share" and went off and did her own thing. She was ignored the rest of our time there.

[4evermom]

That's upsetting.

I might cheerfully make a loud comment about how nice it is at the playground because you get to play with everyone. It might work to just directly say in a friendly tone that they can still play with dd. I feel like sometimes the kids who are trying to figure out all the unspoken rules and such just need someone to tell them it's ok. They are just going by what other kids are doing half the time. I have announced to kids who have tried to keep ds off the play equipment (when he was younger) that the play structure was for everyone to share. They've always stopped blocking him after that. So much experimenting happens with kid dynamics and much of it at that age doesn't have much adult guidance but just follows whichever kid is most vocal.

I used to bring things that played well in a group, like bubbles with plenty of wands, sidewalk chalk, or a multitude of matchbox cars (ones that weren't precious to ds). We still bring a bin of legos to our homeschool parkdays and just ask the kids to keep them on the blanket. It's a good ice breaker when they are just getting to know each other. They can parallel play until they warm up to each other. I avoided toys that only a couple of kids could use. My ds was happy to share but he'd get frustrated if he didn't get a turn.

It was so hard when ds was younger and wanted to play every kid he saw, ones we'd never met. We rarely seemed to see the same kids at a playground so we were always starting from scratch. Sometimes I'd be "it" and play tag with ds. Then ALL the other kids would want to join in.

Good luck!

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by JSerene

No, the school doesn't mix up the grades at all.

My dd is 5, but not in kindergarten. I held her back this year, then plan to homeschool. This certainly sets her apart from the other girls.

Further separating her is the feeding tube she has running continuously. The other mother, seeing them exclude her, asked if I could hide the tube better, which hadn't occurred to me and I don't think is possible.

I see the point of kids at this age naturally sorting/categorizing, but they didn't do it at all before the start of school.

My solution at the time was to have my dd bring out a unique toy that everyone could enjoy to attract them back to her. Unfortunately, they took over the toy and ignored her. At that point the other mother advised them to let her play too, but she gave up. She said, "it's okay, they can play with it, I'll share" and went off and did her own thing. She was ignored the rest of our time there.

That must be so difficult.

So if I understand, the children all played well together, without any exclusion, before school started this year? Last year, the other children were in kindergarten. Has anything else changed? Is the feeding tube new? Could the children feel unsure about it and whether your dd could get hurt if they start playing running, jumping, catching kinds of physical games?

The idea of toys or activities for group play is a good one. I also wonder if you could arrange a park playdate with one of your dd's friends. It's sometimes easier for two small groups to merge together, rather than a single outsider try to break into an established group.

I also wonder if you can coach her a little for a response about the grade thing. If she's homeschooling, grades don't apply at all. If someone says she's not in 1st grade, she can respond by saying something like she's in "Year 5" (since she's 5 years' old).

I hope you find some good solutions for playground politics soon.

[jkpmomtoboys]

Originally Posted by mamazee

It could be simply because they're used to sorting by age at school, but it sounds like it could be exclusionary play, in which case it would be a form of bullying.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on this? What we always tell the kids is that you don't have to be friends with everyone but you have to be nice to everyone.

But as I read your statement, you would consider a chid's desire to only play with her friends bullying? Am I reading that right?

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by jkpmomtoboys

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on this? What we always tell the kids is that you don't have to be friends with everyone but you have to be nice to everyone.

But as I read your statement, you would consider a chid's desire to only play with her friends bullying? Am I reading that right?

I don't think that's what she meant. These kids have played with the OP's dd in the past so they aren't "not friends". Sometimes kids experiment with power by choosing one child to leave out. That could be bullying behavior. If they are just simply playing with their friends and engrossed in that, then that is different. And sometimes kids don't know how to incorporate another child into a game but they aren't excluding to be mean. That also is not bullying behavior although the excluded child might still feel bad.

[mamazee]

Specifically excluding a child is sometimes done as a form of bullying. You'll have a group of five kids, and then they might decide to "kick out" one of the five kids, so you'll have four kids playing and specifically and intentionally excluding one kid. It's possible you haven't seen it, because it isn't just not playing with someone who isn't a friend. It's a specific mean act and I think if you saw it you'd recognize it as bullying. I can't think of a good way to describe it. Sometimes they'll make a "club" and then set up rules in a way that one person is unable to join, and then make a big deal of that rule in front of that person. Like "This club is only for people whose names start with B, J, and K. So Beth, Jamie, and Katie can be in the club, but sorry Ann, your name starts with a different letter so you can't be in it." Then the kids play and have fun in front of Ann with the intent of making her feel excluded. It isn't always that obvious, but that's an extreme example to show how it works. It's using exclusion as a weapon, not just playing only with friends. Sometimes a different kids is excluded from time to time, but sometimes there will be some kids who seem to get picked on and purposely excluded over and over again.

Because it is sometimes hard to tell from the outside whether it's this deliberate shunning act or just kids only playing with friends, it sometimes flies under the radar at schools.

[JSerene]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Sometimes kids experiment with power by choosing one child to leave out. That could be bullying behavior.

This was it exactly. I couldn't put my finger on it, but you said it.

We went back to the park today and the exact same thing happened. This time I paid closer attention to who was the instigator and it was one girl. She's not from the neighborhood, but is being picked up at the playground/bus stop after school. She's leading the neighborhood girls away from my dd. She led the group in ignoring dd, then declared, "okay, lets run!" (away from my dd). It was definitely a play for power. It was an act of bullying.

Today, I disconnected dd's feeding tube before going to the playground, so that didn't make a difference.

I explained to dd that it's okay for someone not to play with her, but it's not okay for her to be mean. Next time, I need to talk to the girl. She's just a kid, maybe she needs to hear this.

I guess it may not be related to school as I first thought, but just the introduction of this new person to the group dynamic. Sigh, they are too young for playground drama.

On the other hand, is it natural for kids to experiment with power this way, or is it a result of the time spent in school with the many social rules to figure out there?

[mamazee]

I have a friend who complained about this happening with a homeschooling group. It's probably some negative side of human nature, I'm afraid. It's very hard to navigate this problem, and I hope you are able to make things better.

[Tjej]

I sure remember this sort of stuff from when I was a kid. Children can be amazing examples of love and generosity, and they can also be viciously mean and cruel. There is a lot to learn.

I don't know how you really fix it - there are good sites about bullying that people sometimes link to. It doesn't really work for a parent to intervene very often - maybe since they are still 6ish, but generally I remember it just going underground then.

Tjej

[JessBB]

Yuck. It irks me that the other mom tried to blame your dd, basically. I've told my son that kids don't have to play with him and also that not everyone's parents do a good job of teaching them to be nice. He is only three, and also exclusionary play is not allowed at his preschool so we haven't dealt with this much, but oh boy does it bring out the mama bear in me. I have a very hard time not intervening and instead focusing only on my ds and his feelings (as opposed to the stuck up little miscreants who might be mean to my sweetie, lol).

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by JSerene

We went back to the park today and the exact same thing happened. This time I paid closer attention to who was the instigator and it was one girl. She's not from the neighborhood, but is being picked up at the playground/bus stop after school. She's leading the neighborhood girls away from my dd. She led the group in ignoring dd, then declared, "okay, lets run!" (away from my dd). It was definitely a play for power. It was an act of bullying.

Ok, what I would do is approach the other girl (friendly, not intimidating). Say "hi what's your name?" After she tells you introduce her to you dd. Say "This is DD. She has been playing with these girls all summer. They are friends. Please don't tell the other girls to run away from her because it hurts her feelings and I know you wouldn't want to do that." Then smile.

I'd also keep my head pointed in their general direction after that so they don't think I'm not paying attention. If you nip things like this in the bud, the kids get into good playing habits, at least with each other until something new happens to change the dynamics.

Originally Posted by mamazee

I have a friend who complained about this happening with a homeschooling group. It's probably some negative side of human nature, I'm afraid. It's very hard to navigate this problem, and I hope you are able to make things better.

We did have a problem at one HS group, too. One 6 yo girl seemed to be the main culprit. She'd do passive aggressive things, make ds mad enough to shove (he was barely 5), then ds got a rep for being aggressive which he never ever was with other kids without some major provocation. The moms all sat knitting far away so it seemed to them that my ds was the one with the issue since their kids were all fine when he wasn't there.

[eepster]

I'm going to go against the majority here, and say don't confront the ring leader. Confronting her just makes your DD seem more like a baby to the other girls. Since the ring leader leaves on the bus at a certain time, I would just wait till she is gone. Also, I would look for a place that had more kids your DD age. Is there another playground where the kindergarteners mostly go?

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by eepster

I'm going to go against the majority here, and say don't confront the ring leader.

But if you think of her as the new girl, then an introduction is certainly appropriate.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by eepster

Also, I would look for a place that had more kids your DD age. Is there another playground where the kindergarteners mostly go?

The kids are only a year apart, it's not like there is a major age gap.

[JSerene]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Ok, what I would do is approach the other girl (friendly, not intimidating). Say "hi what's your name?" After she tells you introduce her to you dd. Say "This is DD. She has been playing with these girls all summer. They are friends. Please don't tell the other girls to run away from her because it hurts her feelings and I know you wouldn't want to do that." Then smile.

This seems like a good idea. Especially since the kids dad doesn't seem approachable at all. It's a small playground and he's never so much as looked up and said hi.


I'd also keep my head pointed in their general direction after that so they don't think I'm not paying attention. If you nip things like this in the bud, the kids get into good playing habits, at least with each other until something new happens to change the dynamics.

This was my tactic and it got the most frustrating result. This kid looked me in the face and smirked. She knew I was watching and tried to trick my dd in going down a wet slide (she'd given it a light coating of sand). I feel like she's testing this out. One of the neighborhood girls met my eye too and hung back from this game - she sees me often and I know her mother.

No, we're not going to choose another park. This is a block from our house and we've been going there almost daily since she was 10 months old.

DD was very frustrated by all this, but got over it quickly. Her home life is solid and she usually prefers adult company anyway. It just stinks that she reached out to the other kids and got rejected. Visions of my own childhood flashed before my eyes and I remember how hard it could be.

[Tjej]

Do a search on bullying in the childhood years or parenting and you'll find a lot of helpful threads, I think. I really think your DD is still the one who is going to have to handle this - I don't mean she has to handle it all alone, but that you can equip her with the skills to handle this type of interaction. Mama intervening doesn't help in most situations once kids are old enough.

Tjej

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by JSerene

This was my tactic and it got the most frustrating result. This kid looked me in the face and smirked. She knew I was watching and tried to trick my dd in going down a wet slide (she'd given it a light coating of sand). I feel like she's testing this out. One of the neighborhood girls met my eye too and hung back from this game - she sees me often and I know her mother.

That's too bad.

I do see Eepster's point about it possibly giving the girl power now that I've thought about it. So much depends on tone and nuances... I know that for many kids, they respond well to having someone assume they have good intentions even if they didn't. They see that reflected back at them and they like it so they rise to the occasion. Or it makes them feel like they aren't labeled the mean kid so they don't have to live up to that label, either

Maintaining a sense of humor can help your dd learn to navigate these things. Maybe saying "Oh no a sand trap! You might get stuck. Or you might go so fast you fly to the moon! What will you do? Do you think it's safe?" if you think your dd is up to the challenge of going through it. She'll be warned but then feel good about succeeding in a "challenge". It would really backfire if you added more sand so your dd could try again, lol. Might even have all the kids lining up for a turn.