How compatible is Waldorf with Attachment Parenting?

[babygirlsmama]

I had always assumed Waldorf education was very compatible with AP parenting...is this assumption valid?

So, here I am, mama of an 11 month old and we are about to start one of those cute parent/infant programs at a Waldorf school called Sprouts or Seedlings, or whatever. I've read plenty and even visited a Waldorf school open house or two and feel confident that the school philosophy feels like a good fit for us.

But now we are heading into the class and I'm getting a closer look at some of the materials. Without being too specific, I get the sense that us parents are not supposed to interact (or even be physically near) our children during the class time. Is this the case? Even with the crawling/just barely walking kids?


So I'm wondering whether there is any friction between the Waldorf philosophies and AP parenting.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Babygirlsmama

[mommabeehilly]

In response to your questions...I am a full on AP mom.

DD is started Waldorf preschool this year. She loves her teachers. Before the year began her main teacher came for a home visit. In trying to understand our child fully she asked to be shown where she sleeps and plays. So as for sleeping, we showed her our family bed. She did not bat an eye. Nor did the co-teacher when on a AP Mom's night out we were talking about BFing. She asked how long we BFed for...and I replied that we still do.

In regards to the parent/tot group, we participated in that last year at our school. I felt that it was very AP friendly. Actually to invite the parents in, is AP friendly. I also felt that this gave DD a great transition into preschool. She was able to experience school and her new friends with the comfort of Mama being present.

That being said...I think that it depends on the teacher and the school. Gratefully our school is very AP friendly and most of the people from our local API support group send their children to this school.

[zoebird]

AP isn't well known here, i would say, though a lot of the different methods are. It's hard to describe what i experience here, to be honest. most of the teaching is along the typical 'mainstream' lines, but without some of the same "problems" or "common behaviors" that we see in the US. So, it's rather confusing to talk about.

but, anyway, i have noted that those parents in the steiner programs are more likely to be closer to AP. they may not actually know anything about AP, but our playgroup leader actually runs parenting classes that are pretty AP. she does have ideas that fall outside of those lines (based on her own life experience and her interpretation of steiner), but most of it is well within.

i think it is most obvious with discipline, in that parents in the steiner groups do a lot of gentle discipline techniques and those are preferred over all others. this is what our playgroup leader teaches over and over, both in her classes and in the play groups.

one of the things, too, that i drew away from the continuum concept is really allowing children to roam a bit, to explore and experience. i called it "free ranging" and would let my son do this from a rather early age (crawling). of course, i was aware of where he was and what he was doing, but i was not concerned about his safety or his attachment. he was fine.

i have noticed that in this particular group, we behave similarly. children are free to play and roam. little ones are walked (if they are walking and need support), and babies are held or set in a safe place, or otherwise just held.

i suppose it would depend upon the individual teacher and school, but otherwise, i feel it is much more closely related to AP than other forms of schooling, but like with any groups, i take what i want and leave the rest. where we don't match up, we don't. so long as it doesn't interfere with me in any way, i'm not worried about it.

[copperfox]

Everyone at our school is fairly crunchy, & crunchy folks around here are usually quite APish. Ergo, our school is full of crunchy AP Waldorfy types.

It's wonderful!

[yukookoo]

depends on the teacher and the school and the community etc.

The school we are at now is the most AP friendly place I've ever been too! Luckily there are maybe 5 school within our area (by area i mean 100 miles or so, meaning we could potentially move to be closer to any of them ) We tried several parent/child classes, festivals etc to get an idea of the community. One parent/child teacher was VERY anti AP, talked about cio, anti family bed, nursing should end at 7 months or before and if you go past that you are a horrible parent! it was a horrible couple weeks in the class. The class we took at the school we are at now was very opposite, teacher who was 80 years old nursed her kids past 4 years! Everyone almost is cosleeping, baby wearing, no vaxing, no circ, homebirthers etc the whole 9 yards.

My point is that you have to check it out and find a school or class or teacher within the school that jives with you, like with any group.

Very baby parent/child classes tend to follow rie, which I am really really not a big fan of and i personally dont even see how it has anything to do with Waldorf.

[sillysmile]

I have a 20m DD. We are very AP-oriented, and participate in two different Waldorf parent-tot groups each week. I do get the sense (from both programs) that parents are expected to talk quietly amongst themselves and leave the children to play on their own. As a SAHM to one child, I constantly interact with DD when at home and honestly feel like I'm ignoring her when I'm at my Waldorf groups. I guess that it's good to let her learn to play on her own, but it still makes me a little uneasy. In general, though, the Walforf moms that I have met tend to be very crunchy and much more aligned with AP than mainstream parenting.

[honeybunmom]

Our experience with AP and Waldorf has been a positive one. When my daughter was transitioning into her first Waldorf kind at 26 mos old, I stayed with her the first week, shortening my stay each day until I could leave her without her showing any signs of distress. Some of those days I nursed her before I left, right there in the classroom. No big deal. The teacher may have even suggested it if I recall correctly.

Our current Waldorf kindy community is full of cloth diapering, babywearing, extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping families. Not all, of course, but the majority, I would say. On any given morning, you may see a mama sitting in the garden nursing her toddler she's brought along for drop off. No one bats an eye.

Similar to other experiences, the discipline is gentle, as well. And, fortunately, not non-existent. The children are not left to "fend for themselves", but are often guided in the resolution of their conflicts, where it is more beneficial than not to be re-directed. How do I know? Several times I've stayed at school just to hang out (of course, I end up ironing napkins or something like that! LOL!). It's great to be in a community that is so welcoming of parent involvement.

[Melaniee]

I agree that it depends upon the school and teacher. Ours was. I heard tale of another one in the area that was not so much. Some people even commuted from very near that school further to ours b/c of that. I don't think that some of the AP fits with some of the original Waldorf philosophies, though that is just based upon my assumptions from things I've heard and NOT that I've not done the reading myself.

Having said that, you really saw many many many many many AP families at Waldorf. In fact the ones in Parent-Tot who bottle fed (and this was at age 1 1/2-2) were the exception, and even they were AP in many ways.

IMHO, I found, it might not be a match for the more hands-off parenting philosophies (truly, I don't know what to call them by "label") where parents just allow their children to do whatever they want whenever they want however they want. An example might be a child coming to school in a sundress in the middle of winter, or wanting to wander off to play during circle time (when older). The children will be gently guided back to the circle or have their extra clothing put over them. I've seen families who practice this style of parenting be rather unhappy, in later years.

[boogiemonster]

I don't think your sense that the parents aren't to interact with the children is necessarily accurate. While the idea of free and unstructured play is important in Waldorf education, I have never seen any parents ignore their children in class. If a child cries and needs mama, she goes and picks him up.

The parents in class are generally encouraged to model purposeful work to the children, like handwork or something to benefit the classroom such as sanding wood blocks, dusting and sweeping, or doing dishes. Children learn and are inspired to imitate this work, which is why you will see play kitchens, small brooms and dustpans, and similar toys in a Waldorf classroom.

Parents are not supposed to chit chat among themselves and stand idly by at the side of the classroom, ignoring the children while they play. I guess the best way to describe it is parallel work: the adult does her work while the child does his work/play.

I identify as very AP, but I don't believe that means I need to be in my children's faces all the time. I assess their individual needs at the time, and give them attention when they need it. Right now my 5 year old is sitting on the couch happily cutting pieces of yarn into a bowl. This is her "purposeful work". Why would I need to interfere?

[zinemama]

It really depends on the teacher. I know someone who quite after the teacher told her she really should wean her 1yo. But I don't think that's typical.

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by boogiemonster

I don't think your sense that the parents aren't to interact with the children is necessarily accurate. While the idea of free and unstructured play is important in Waldorf education, I have never seen any parents ignore their children in class. If a child cries and needs mama, she goes and picks him up.

The parents in class are generally encouraged to model purposeful work to the children, like handwork or something to benefit the classroom such as sanding wood blocks, dusting and sweeping, or doing dishes. Children learn and are inspired to imitate this work, which is why you will see play kitchens, small brooms and dustpans, and similar toys in a Waldorf classroom.

Parents are not supposed to chit chat among themselves and stand idly by at the side of the classroom, ignoring the children while they play. I guess the best way to describe it is parallel work: the adult does her work while the child does his work/play.

I identify as very AP, but I don't believe that means I need to be in my children's faces all the time. I assess their individual needs at the time, and give them attention when they need it. Right now my 5 year old is sitting on the couch happily cutting pieces of yarn into a bowl. This is her "purposeful work". Why would I need to interfere?

i agree.

I feel like maybe some ap parents feel like in order to be AP you need to have constant interaction.

I like to think that I am ap- i tandem breastfeed my youngest two, babywear, toddler wear, cosleep etc...

but i think babies and toddlers should see us going about our business.

I know it goes against a lot of what we are taught Parenting is all about, but I am not really one that sits and just watches my kids play EVER... i usually do not get involved in imaginative play either. Unless asked to perform a specific role.

With my 9 month old, he crawls at my feet or plays with his siblings, or is on my back or front in the carrier.

so I guess Im wondering, if your 11month old is happily playing about a waldorf class- what, as an AP MAMA, do you feel like you SHOULD be doing?

for instance, while im cleaning the kitchen, my 9 month old is in the next room, in my sights, playing with the other children... i dont feel like i should be next to him, guiding him in anyway... kwim?

[boogiemonster]

Originally Posted by zinemama

It really depends on the teacher. I know someone who quite after the teacher told her she really should wean her 1yo. But I don't think that's typical.

I wonder if the teacher knew that Steiner breastfed for four years?

There is some debate about whether a child is able to incarnate into his own individual self while breastfeeding. That said, I've NEVER heard a teacher offer anyone such advice. Frankly, it's none of their business.

[sillysmile]

I certainly don't feel that a child needs to have constant interaction with a parent at all times, but on the other hand there are times when small children naturally prefer or even need to be in proximity to their parents in order to feel safe.. especially when in new and unfamiliar environments.

Let me offer an example. This morning at my Waldorf parent-tot group (the first class of the Fall session), there was a circle of parents seated in chairs, and most of the children were roaming about playing happily. One particular almost-2-yr old, who was previously playing happily and independently, decided at some point that she wanted her mother, and started crying for her. Rather than go to her, the mother just stayed seated and essentially ignored her. She eventually stopped crying a good 10 minutes or so later. I'm not exactly sure what she was trying to teach the child, but I guess she was trying to make the point that her place was in the circle with the other parents, and if the child wanted her comfort, she needed to come over to her and not vice versa. She actually said that if she went over there now, she would be "stuck there" (where the children were playing) all morning. The Waldorf teacher in the group commended this mom for her firmness. Obviously this was an isolated incident, but I really don't think that something like this would have happened in my AP group.

So I'm curious... If your child was in the similar position (and at a similar age - 22 months or so), would you have done the same thing? The child wasn't hurt or in extreme distress or anything, she just really wanted her mother. I can understand that the mother was trying to teach the child how the parent-tot class was going to operate (i.e. she wasn't going to be on the floor playing with her - she was going to be over with the other parents), but IMHO, her tactics were just a bit harsh for that age and I'm not sure whether the child was really processing much more at that moment other than "I REALLY want my mother!" What do you think?

[boogiemonster]

Originally Posted by sillysmile

So I'm curious... If your child was in the similar position (and at a similar age - 22 months or so), would you have done the same thing?

No, I wouldn't have. I would have brought her over to sit quietly on my lap (and knowing my DD at that age, to nurse). Honestly, I've never seen anyone do anything like that in our Waldorf classes.

If my child was being disruptive after I let her sit with me, I would take her out into the hallway until she calmed down, so as not to disturb the entire class. I would think that a child fussing for 10 minutes would be really upsetting for the other children.

[zoebird]

i'm with boogiemonster.

in our playgroup, we have work and socializing time. so our work is typically very basic stuff--cutting the fruit, moving tables around for tea time, or just doing little things like straightening up around the garden (putting toys away when they are finished, sweeping pathways, moving mulch around into mud puddles and such. but, we mostly chat and stand around.

we watch the kids playing, and if there is a bit of a flap (possession over toys, etc), then we step in and do the "first he gets a turn, then she gets a turn" or "one for him, and one for her" if there are two of an object. usually, this is no problem and the kids go right back to playing without any issues.

parents step in with their children, and sometimes with other children, and since we're all following the same method, it's no big deal.

if a child is upset and calling for his/her mother, then the mother goes to the child, and if the child is seeking specific comfort/etc, then the mother brings the child back to the space where the parent was working or socializing. usually, though, the child comes to the mother for comfort, rather than the mother having to go to the child. this is just what generally happens.

i am an AP mama, but i also believe that i don't have to be playing with my child every second of every day. we followed a lot of the information in the Continuum Concept, which i found to work really well for developing attachment as well as just making life nice for us. i think that steiner and the continuum concept have a lot in common, because the mother goes about her work and her life, and the child plays along side, with other children, or is in a wrap or carrier.

so, this is how it is for my DS. from birth until about crawling age, he was pretty much in arms most of the time (when sleeping at nap time, on a cushion on the floor, or in the wrap, or on the bed), once he was crawling, he was on the floor/ground while i worked, able to explore and i trusted his innate sense of self preservation (a la CC), and was able to continue with my work.

for concerted times throughout the day, there are times when we are interacting on his interests, but those go in between when i'm doing what i need to do, and usually he helps me with chores and such, plays along side, wahtever. he comes to me when he needs comfort, and i focus on him and give it, and otherwise, he pretty much plays on his own.

so, that's us anyway. that's why it's not tough for me to just let him range, as he has pretty much ranged from about 8-9 months old.

[tea4tamara]

Our parent and tot class was full of AP type parents. The teacher told us that Waldorf does not recommend breastfeeding beyond a year because it discourages a child from learning independence, but she was outnumbered by a whole lot of us sitting there nursing our toddlers.

[SimpleGrace]

interesting.....the only thing that has turned me off a bit at our local waldorf school is how they seem to shuffle the children off to another room while they present information to us (i.e- at tours, tea times, teacher talks, etc.) I first attended an information session with the nursery teachers when DS was 8 months old. Not crawling. We are very, very AP as well, so he has barely left my side, unless it's with DH. Before this session began, they introduced us to the young woman who would be caring for our children in the next room. I felt really uncomfortable. Fortunately, the children played so very nicely in the room we were in that they seemed to "forget" to split us up.
I also arranged for our mom's group to have a morning at the school this past summer. The same thing happened. I almost felt like they wanted everyone's undivided attention....hoping to get people signed up for classes, etc.
Not trying to talk about our WS in a negative way....but I did pick up on this....and I can see why the OP might have felt like this....

[boogiemonster]

Originally Posted by SimpleGrace

interesting.....the only thing that has turned me off a bit at our local waldorf school is how they seem to shuffle the children off to another room while they present information to us (i.e- at tours, tea times, teacher talks, etc.)

Okay, but this has nothing to do with Waldorf pedagogy. It has to do with the fact that there are some situations where it is disruptive to have young children present. I can't take my kids to yoga classes with me, but that doesn't mean that following a yoga practice is incompatible with AP. We were invited to a wedding last fall, but our children were not. This doesn't mean that the institution of marriage is incompatible with AP.

To answer the question in the title of this thread, "How compatible is Waldorf with Attachment Parenting?", I suppose the best answer is "How would you define AP?" If, to you, it means spending as much time as possible doing the same activity as your child and being directly involved with his or her play, I would say that Waldorf pedagogy may not be the best match for you. I believe that AP means to respect my child as an individual and respond with kindness and gentleness to her needs.

That said, Waldorf pedagogy approaches a child's education not only from an intellectual point of view, but in response to the whole child - head, heart and hands. This fits with how I practice AP. Early childhood education in the Waldorf pedagogy is approached in an unhurried and gentle manner, respecting that children need their senses to be protected from over-stimulation. This fits with how I practice AP. Waldorf pedagogy encourages parents to provide children with a gentle, predictable home rhythm so they may feel safe and secure in their everyday lives. This also fits with how I practice AP.

So, while it's impossible to say that each and every Waldorf school will be directly in line with an individual's AP philosophy, I don't think it's accurate in any way to say that Waldorf education as a whole is incongruous with AP.

[Melaniee]

Originally Posted by SimpleGrace

interesting.....the only thing that has turned me off a bit at our local waldorf school is how they seem to shuffle the children off to another room while they present information to us (i.e- at tours, tea times, teacher talks, etc.) I first attended an information session with the nursery teachers when DS was 8 months old. Not crawling. We are very, very AP as well, so he has barely left my side, unless it's with DH. Before this session began, they introduced us to the young woman who would be caring for our children in the next room. I felt really uncomfortable. Fortunately, the children played so very nicely in the room we were in that they seemed to "forget" to split us up.
I also arranged for our mom's group to have a morning at the school this past summer. The same thing happened. I almost felt like they wanted everyone's undivided attention....hoping to get people signed up for classes, etc.
Not trying to talk about our WS in a negative way....but I did pick up on this....and I can see why the OP might have felt like this....

That never happened at our school. The day events, such as you mention, were baby/toddler-friendly, and the informative ones were evenings (no children). Babies and toddlers were welcome in parent meetings as well. Once they got to be school-aged there was childcare arranged, but generally just for the enrolled children (nursery and up), not babies. They stayed in meetings with parents or didn't come. I was always encouraged to bring my baby/toddler with me to meetings and such. Generally, b/c she wasn't the sort to sit nicely I just never went because *I* couldn't pay attention anyway, but it wasn't due to lack of encouragement.

sillysmile, in that situation, I can imagine our teacher would have interrupted mom's conversation to say "Child'sname seems to need you at the moment," or brought the child TO the mom herself. LOL. So no, I'm going to say it's not something that is the norm. Having said that, I heard tale of a toddler class where the parents had no interaction, and I thought it was the most bizarre thing ever and I am so grateful it wasn't the one at our school or I may have never gone back. Ours was as others have described, parents doing purposeful work while children played. Some children sat in their parent's lap for weeks before they ventured out to play.

[babygirlsmama]

Thank you, everyone. I am really grateful for all the thoughtful responses.

Since my baby was born, I have deliberately sought out communities that support our ideas (homebirth, attachment parenting, etc.). So, perhaps I have a skewed view. From what everyone is saying, Waldorf may be the best option for AP friendly schooling.

In other words, what I'm hearing is that Waldorf is about as compatible with attachment parenting as any formal school is going to be. Does that sound accurate?

There's a lot I love about the Waldorf philosophies (at least what I know so far), such as the desire to educate the whole individual. I love the emphasis on objectively observing the child and not projecting our own stuff.

The two things I'm hearing about in our program that caused me to ask these questions are (1) they discourage nursing during the parent/toddler class time (I am pretty sure the teachers would make us go outside if we needed to nurse, but I think they would prefer we hold off alltogether during class); and (2) the teachers insist the child must come to the parent if needed and they seem to discourage affirmatively comforting the children.

Example --toddler fussing, crawling toward mama. Mama says, "Sweetie, do you want to sit in my lap?" Teacher: "Don't offer that. She will come to you and sit in your lap if she needs you."

To be sure, it is a subtle line. I suppose the children will know we are there, so if they need us obviously they can climb in our laps. Without knowing, I'm guessing this is about boundaries and trying to observe where the edges are to the child's independence. I certainly don't think any teacher would discourage a parent from comforting a baby who was in distress (as opossed to just frustrated or mildly fussing).

Overall, this has really peaked my curiosity. It seems to me that everything in Waldorf is very intentional (ie what color paint is on the walls, what toys are in the room, what is said to the children), so I guess these nuances of interaction are intentional, and I will eventually understand the reasons behind them. So, on that note, can anyone shed some light on the two things I mention and the reasoning behind it? (ie not nursing during class, and not offering comfort?)

Babygirlsmama