Low Thyroid Symptoms but "Normal" Blood Tests

[JaneS]

This is going to be another monster thread, so get ready.

I've been researching thyroid issues for the last several months. I've been completely blown away by the many conditions that have been historically shown to be treated with natural thyroid hormone and thus seem to have their root cause in thyroid malfunction:

• IBS, allergies and intolerances,
• fibromyalgia and muscle abnormalities,
• mitochondrial disorders,
• chronic fatigue syndrome,
• failure to thrive,
• bone growth problems and teeth problems including cavities,
• premature or delayed puberty,
• human growth hormone deficiency,
• chronic respiratory illness,
• chronic skin disorders such as eczema, psoriasis et al,
• hair loss and premature grey hair,
• chemical and drug sensitivity... and many more.

How could this be?

There isn't a cell between your hair and your toenails, that doesn't need thyroid, 24 hours a day. For proper oxidation of the fuel, and removal of the garbage. - Broda Barnes, MD

In traditional thyroid research starting early last century, doctors would remove the thyroid gland from animals and observe exactly what happened to them. They would then inject thyroid gland extract back into the animals and observe improvement of symptoms.

... the baby rabbit, three weeks of age, was thyroidectomised... practically everything that you see in the human hypothyroid, can be demonstrated with the exception of the mental changes. For some reason or other, rabbits do not have, that many mental breakdowns. So, it was pretty well ingrained in me, what you might expect as a result of thyroid deficiency.

There is also a long history of clinically diagnosing and treating patients with a myriad of conditions who reliably and predictably improve with the addition of natural dessicated thyroid. These doctors actually looked at and examined the patient for signs and symptoms, before the advent of blood testing and use of synthetic thyroid hormone (Synthroid etc).

Doctors today rely on blood values and don't usually examine the patients for physical symptoms and a family history of hypoT such as:

- “delayed return phase" of the ankle jerk reflex, keratosis pilaris, thinning hair, dry skin, thickened tongue, yellowed skin, et al

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsfor...rthyroid_2.htm

- mucin accumulation on the upper arm called myxedema http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/thyroid.php which is known to ONLY be caused by low thyroid function.

- an "ironic" hypothyroid symptom list http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

- comprehensive checklist for thyroid risk http://thyroid.about.com/cs/basics_s...ochecklist.htm It's become that doctors simply look at the little numbers on lab tests and not the person! Then if there is an abnormality in lab values, synthetic thyroid hormone is usually prescribed and again followed by lab tests. If your tests are in "normal" range you are pronounced cured regardless of your physical signs. Synthetic thyroid hormones do change blood lab values, but again, the key might be how your body cells are actually using the hormone. There are lots of risks giving isolated T4 or T3 compounds and many studies actually do not how a high rate of symptom resolution!
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

Dr. Broda Barnes was the pioneer in the field of thyroid research. His over 50 year career using natural desiccated thyroid hormone (such as Armour) is a wealth of knowledge. He treated scores of patients and published a book on his case notes.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069...SIN=069001029X

Barnes designed the BBT test, meticulously researching its reliability for thyroid function, and it was published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

Today, there are two doctors who have written books which build on Dr. Barnes' legacy:

Dr. Stephen Langer, "Solved: The Riddle of Illness"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007...SIN=0071470573

Dr. Mark Starr, "Hypothyroidism: Type 2"
* My current favorite book.*
Here is a great article reviewing Starr's book which describes the whole premise behind Hypothyroidism Type 2 aka "Thyroid Resistance":
http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12

•With Type 1 Hypothyroidism, the thyroid does not produce sufficient amounts of hormone to maintain “normal” blood levels of hormones [this is the type that is tested with lab blood values].

•With Type 2 Hypothyroidism, the thyroid gland produces “normal” amounts of hormone, but the cells are unable to utilize the hormone properly. Some experts call this thyroid hormone resistance (which may be regarded as similar to insulin resistance).

… lab tests fail to detect Type 2 hypothyroidism, because despite adequate bloodstream hormone levels, the cells are unable to accept and utilize that hormone

Most all doctors believe today the TSH is the only blood test to run to check thyroid function. Mine did and told me it wasn't my thyroid to blame since my numbers were in the normal range. However, I have upteen symptoms, including the most basic test of your metabolism: a low basal body temperature (normal BBT is 97.8 to 98.2) and cold intolerance.

Again, I have learned from reading about the traditional treatment of hypothyroidism is that blood tests don't tell the whole story about how our cells are actually using thyroid hormone, only symptoms do, and especially the BBT done correctly. More on what can go wrong with cellular function later.

I asked several months ago who among us on the allergy chat thread had hypothyroid symptoms ... ALL of us did!

So we've been discussing in great detail in September's chat thread and thought it might be best to pull out that conversation into a separate thread. I'll be doing my best to update this thread with our previous posts.

Feel free to subscribe using the "Thread Tools" link on the upper right and join in on the discussion or ask questions!

This is very dear to me because it appears from traditional research that a hypothyroid mother is very likely to produce a hypothyroid child (due to inheriting the mitochondrial DNA that only comes from the mother, more later on that). Dr. Barnes and Dr. Starr always looked at the mother in evaluating the child. It is also said that each successive generation has more pronounced malfunction. My DS has many hypoT symptoms.

[JaneS]

From http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6#post15822176

Originally Posted by whoMe

My sister and I were playing with skin - the mucin arm pinch stuff. All of her skin is way looser than mine. I'm realizing that my extra weight seems to be lactation related - never had it pre-dd and went back to my normal body type when pg with ds. I'm sure there's a clue there, but I have no clue what it is. My thyroid doesn't like making milk?

Eta: I came across a blurb today mentioning that folate protects against birth defects caused by bpa in plastics. Interesting, no?

Originally Posted by JaneS

Hey whoMe,

The mucin logged arm skin is different than fat, much firmer. I wonder if your issue is that of T3 conversion and there is something impairing it when you are lactating?

Clobo and I were talked about iron, are you taking iron and what form?
Is it working? It could be a factor in hair loss if you are still noticing.

I was reading about iron bis-glycinate. I want to try to get my ferritin up, apparently liver and red meat is doing squat and that can also effect thyroid function a great deal. Broda Barnes the thyroid guru says ferritin should be 100 in those with thyroid disorders. Dr. Mark Starr recs ferretin 130 in menstruating women!

Originally Posted by JaneS

Very interesting [re: folate and BPA]. Must get rid of it through better methylation?

Is there a mitochondria thread around? I feel like I need to (try) to understand that better.

Originally Posted by JaneS

I haven't seen any online just in his book. Supposedly even if you are chubby the skin will separate from the underlying tissue if you don't have mucin accumulating. If you do, it will be impossible to separate on your upper arm. Also outer thigh. It will feel different than another chubby area on your body.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah, the mucin fits much better than fat for me. Iron's definitely low, though I don't think I'm actually anemic anymore . Have you thought about lactoferrin for better iron transport, like yasko suggests?

I'll see if I can get pictures/video of everyone's arm skin this afternoon.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Another rec for lactoferrin - it helps transport iron where it's needed. Just taking iron supps (if you aren't transporting iron well) can cause gut bacteria virulence to increase (iron feeds them).

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

And lately I've been wondering if my skipping my Iodoral (for months now) is having an impact. My hair seems to be falling out at an increased rate lately. I am hoping that right now I'm fighting off something, and the sudden fatigue and feeling blah is an illness and not a downtick in my thyroid function.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Your AM temps should tell you Tanya

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

But they've never been normal, not since 5 years ago. My daytime temps are almost normal, which I've counted as a huge improvement, since for a couple years there, I didn't get above 98.0 unless I was really sick. But my morning temps, while noticeably better than 5 years ago, are still not what's called normal--and I've had times with little fatigue and that seemed very adrenal.

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

I haven't temped in so long. Now you've inspired me to try.

When I was temping, my morning temps were around 95.7, and my daytime ones were around 96.8. But my thyroid test numbers looked beautiful. <shrug> I've never had any other symptoms that would suggest being hypothyroid.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Those are the types of numbers I got at my worst, I felt horrible. (eta: obviously I'm glad you don't!) What thyroid tests were run? JaneS has had recent posts on some reasons even stuff like free T3 and free T4 would look normal (I think it was those, TSH is very erratic, some people see huge changes there before symptoms and some take ages to see any movement in TSH even with a mountain of symptoms).

Interesting. I thought it was interesting, too, when I saw an acupuncturist for a while in the spring that she asked about my thyroid, thought it was a bit low, and I think at the time it was in the probably-somewhat-low-but-I-felt-asymptomatic place it's been for a couple years now. She asked because of my pulse, I think, maybe combined with my tongue, but not because of specific symptoms I described, at least that was my impression at the time.

I'm wondering what it would take to get back to 100%... while in theory I think it's possible, at a more practical level I wonder if it's just not going to happen. I'd like to win the lottery. Guess I should play if I really want to incorporate that into the plan.

Originally Posted by JaneS

I would be extremely surprised if you had no other sx given those very low temps. The sx are pretty wide ranging:
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

Recently I've found out that the alternative allergy guru in our area has found that there is a high degree of correlation between low thyroid function and his allergy patients. Both DS and I have low temps and some sx other than food intolerances. Both of us show low free T3 and high reverse T3. (These tests are not usually run)

I've been intensively researching the thyroid lately. I have concluded that lab numbers mean nothing... especially since most drs go by the TSH and T4 only. My favorite books are by Dr. Stephen Langer, Dr. Broda Barnes, Dr. Mark Starr and Dr. Datis Kharrazian, all of which describe longtime practice of treating sx ... and going by BBT.

Blood tests do not show what is actually getting into the body's cells, nor do they show whether the cell mitochondria is actually using the hormone once it's there. And the common T4 testing doesn't show conversion to active T3, another common problem. Reverse T3 blocks the receptor but is not used by body.

Originally Posted by JaneS

There is not only a toxic and allergy component to block thyroid function as we have discussed but also a genetic component. I have just come across scant mention of this and no in depth discussion. Hoping to find more details. But I have concluded I will not be 100%, and maybe DS too, until my thyroid is.

Originally Posted by chlobo

If there were one book to read to figure out how to treat myself for thyroid, what would it be? Don't have time to read 6. My #s were all within range for everything but I've been wondering a lot lately (especially since the weight gain) if I shouldn't just try treating thyroid.

ETA: That website is down right now. Hope it comes back.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

I know my thyroid took a dive at the beginning of this year- I gained 15 pounds in a month, and I was so fatigued I thought I was pregnant (even though I knew I really wasn't.) I think it started after I started supping iodine, which I'm not doing anymore. I think my midwife will run all the thyroid tests if I ask... I should probably do that. But even then, what do I do to fix it? DD had a few thyroid numbers run- TSH: 1.3, TSH Uptake: 27.6, free T3: 4.6 (almost at the top of the normal range), free T4: 1.24. All seemed within range... is there anything that looks off for her?

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Maybe my low and wide-ranging temps would make more sense if I tell you why I stopped trying to temp. I was getting so little sleep, and so inconsistently (due to the baby, i personally sleep great), that when I would wake up and take my temp I never knew if I had been unconscious long enough to have gotten into a deep sleep. I didnt know if a higher temp by a few points meant any activity in my cycle, or if it meant I hadn't been really fully asleep. I didn't know if a lower temp meant anything or if it was just the result of being so exhausted and not having completed a single sleep cycle in the whole past week.

Originally Posted by chlobo

I wish I had answers but I don't. My thyroid #s were all within the reference ranges but dang if I"m not exhausted, gaining weight along with a host of other things. Grasping at straws now and that's why I was thinking about testing thyroid. Doing 5-htp trial now and so far it only makes me jittery.

Originally Posted by whoMe

I was reading something about if you're low selenium, then taking iodine can make you hypo and vise versa. If you're low in both, you inch them up together. That's where I am right now, I think.

Originally Posted by JaneS

One: Starr's or Langer's b/c they both reference Barnes pretty heavily and focus chiefly on treatment with desiccated thyroid hormone. All 3 of those doctors have treated thousands of patients with success focusing on symptoms and not lab tests.

You can try Dr. Lowe's desiccated thyroid or I would bring either of those books in to the doctors you are seeing and start the discussion.

Two: Kharrazian's is a little overwhelming and his treatment relies so heavily on his custom immune supps.... but I do appreciate his take on how getting the thyroid to function doesn't always mean taking thyroid hormone. I'm not sure that he is the last word however, given the long term success and simplicity of the other doctors' approaches.

I came across over and over again in my reading that things like methylation and even nutrient absorption is controlled in some degree by the thyroid. Not to mention symptom after symptom that rang bells for me esp. digestive and chemical intolerance, so I really see it all as chicken and egg right now.

Adrenal is definitely a concern for you too. A thyroid that doesn't work correctly draws on adrenals constantly to raise metabolism and assures the development of adrenal fatigue. If one doesn't tolerate thyroid hormone, the problem is usually adrenal fatigue.

Google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...-and-pathetic/

[JaneS]

Continued from same thread

Originally Posted by chlobo

So I just realized that i have lumps on my arms. No the underside but the top. Jane is this the product of thyroid problems? Lumpy arms?

Originally Posted by JaneS

If iodine causes your thyroid to tank the chief concern would be Hashi's I believe. JR what do you think?

I no longer think tests are indicative of what the thyroid is actually doing in the body cells. They are a good first step, and antibodies should always be run when you have a good reason to suspect thyroid problems but the major thyroid doctors getting results on symptoms treat with desiccated thyroid. Or the immune system which is the new player on the scene, Dr. K:
http://www.thyroidbook.com/

Have you taken her AM temps? Is she frequently cold? cold hands, feet, back or butt. My DS has low BBT, only grew 1 1/4" last year and is frequently cold not to mention the allergies, respiratory issues and chemical intolerance which also seem to be classic signs of impaired thyroid function.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Wha? opposite the bicep you mean, not near the lymph nodes? I have not heard of mucin being lumpy but I imagine it's possible.

Originally Posted by JaneS

In that case I would do average of 3 day temps, see Dr. Rind's chart:
http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

Poor sleep can tank your adrenals big time too.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Doesn't the thyroid form based on mom's thyroid levels during the critical period of pregnancy? So in theory, isn't it possible that someone's thyroid might never work optimally? Would that have to show up as congenital hypo or might it be what some of us are looking at? Just wondering if this is something worth doing with nutrients alone, or if dessicated thyroid is a better option than it sounds. And why would my thyroid hate me lactating?

Originally Posted by JaneS

Well I'm reading about how panic attacks and depression also resolve with thyroid hormone in addition to all the other stuff I just posted about so I don't think you are grasping at straws at all.

I've been suspecting thyroid for years for myself and some things have improved over the years with nutrition but some have only gotten worse. That is why I read somewhat obsessively on the subject partly to convince myself since I've been told upteen times by multiple drs it's not my thyroid... but then everything makes perfect sense when I read about the drs who treat the sx, of which I have many, and not the lab tests.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Now THAT'S a discussion I've love to have right now. Forget dinner with Einstein, Marie Curie and Michaelangelo, I want to get these thyroid doctors in a room together!!

Totally where I'm at right now Shannon. I've chased nutrients for too long I feel. Both me and DS. I still hate to think that lifelong hormone replacement is the answer so that is why the obsession to make sense of it. I do believe in nutrient healing deficiencies, and genetic need for more, and I've seen enormous help from it in past 4 years, but I keep hitting brick walls it seems.

Plus our family hx. One grandmother died of heart attack at 55, a classic hypoT condition for a woman. The other one was on lifelong thyroid hormone. My father has nodules. Aunts on both sides clearly have hypoT sx. And the bells going off with sx after sx for me...

Today I noticed my knees sometimes crack "like ice" when I go upstairs. Another HypoT sx according to Langer/Starr/Barnes.

The only mention similar to this "being born w/ a hormone deficiency" I've read I think in Wilson's adrenal fatigue book is that the fetus will support the low adrenal mother with their adrenal hormones and thus be born fatigued. And the mother will feel better when the fetus's adrenals come online in second and third trimester. Which describes our situation perfectly. DS's very agitated self, reactiing to foods, touchy personality, also speaks of adrenal fatigue.

I don't imagine that the thyroid would be any different (the fetus's hormones supporting the mother's low thyroid function).... plus the theory that ALL adrenal fatigue in fact starts with a low thyroid.

I've thought about this a lot. I also wonder that bm protected him in some way from worse hypoT sx is that he was also getting thyroid hormones in my bm for several years? Because his brain is not effected. I take what blessings I can.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Forgot to respond to this... what directs prolactin production? The only thing I recall is that low thyroid women often have problems producing enough bm. I never did (only when my calcium dipped low when went dairy free).

all the hormones are intimately connected so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a good explanation. If you look into it, lmk.

Originally Posted by chlobo

The lumps are sort of to the side of the bicep.

Originally Posted by chlobo

You know I had my thyroid antibodies tested a year ago. And I had a complete workup by a rheumatologist for a "suspected" autoimmune disease and the conventional doctors came up with zilch. My antibodies were fine and they could not confirm I have an autoimmune disease. come back in 6 months. The best they came up with was a "touch" of fibromyalgia. I just don't know what to think anymore. I just want to feel better and nothing seems to be getting me there.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Seriously? Knees that crackle - that's my mom, and me as of dd being about 1yo. Mo seems to help some With that and the mucin, my connective tissue needs some work!

The pg thing - it was almost the first symptom - my weight redistributed from arms/face to belly. Like, around 6 weeks, back to pre-dd normal for me (well, minus the belly). I don't think baby's glands had kicked in by then!

Originally Posted by whoMe

Met is the slow comt, which is comt+, I thought? I'm AG and met/met, so I average out, pain-wise.

Prolactin is regulated by dopamine. Apparently it's not uncommon to be hypothyroid if you have high prolactin levels, and it's common to check.

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Yeah I know. I made it through about a year of that before my body just ran out of ability to cope with it. Good thing around then he started sleeping better. I've been beefing myself up since then. And my ND gave me some supplements for a short period of time to support my adrenals. And I seem to be all fixed up now, 2 years later. Enough that I felt ready to get pregnant again.

But I haven't tried temping since. So I wonder.

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Iodine and thyroid/Hashi's: I can't answer for certain but I can say that MY thyroid tanked hard after I took an "extra" 50% RDA of iodine for 2 weeks ("extra" over the 100% RDA in my prenatal). That was back when I had the "mysterious" sore throat for two weeks in January, if you all recall? That I thought was strep throat? Yeah. No. That was my THYROID swelling up and going insane from being stimulated by iodine- which made it (temporarily) begin producing thyroxine, which made my immune system- which hates my thyroid- say "Oh look there's that thyroid thing again! Let's kill it!"

So, I was looking at my CBC that was done a couple/few months ago, and I noticed that some of the numbers, although "in range" were either in the extreme high or low end of the range. So, I went looking around, Googling () the test results and the thing that kept coming up for EVERY thing that was in the high or low end was "pernicious anemia". So I'm guessing that I should probably increase my B12 even though it's obviously "subclinical". Could having "subclinical" B12 deficiency also cause "subclinical" low ferritin? Because my ferritin is in the extreme low end of the range as well...

Originally Posted by JaneS

yes I have read it [Starr's book Hypothyroidism Type 2] and am reading it for second time right now. I'm changing my mind and saying its the best of the lot given the discussion of peripheral tissue resistance and mitochondria connection and very complete symptom connections, et al

http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12

Originally Posted by JaneS

Been thinking about this [chlobo's deposits on arms]and remembered it's likely xanthoma, cholesterol deposits which are also connected in Starr's book to hypoT and resolved with hormone treatment.

I've long thought that the lump on my temple was a cholesterol deposit but dr. said it wasn't b/c my cholesterol was so low (160). No dr. I've asked knows what it is.

http://www.righthealth.com/topic/xanthoma/From-Experts

Originally Posted by JaneS

I hear you. As you can tell I'm pretty much there with nutritional supps. All I can say is that I'm just following my instincts and accepting them, accepting if I get a little obsessed about something for the time being b/c in the past, it's always led to a breakthru (sometimes in a totally different area). My instincts have been very good so far and we have had a lot of improvements, but as I said, I don't feel 100%. DS is obviously not, the uber restrictive diet has got to go. And I need to be 100% given what is going on with my life right now. And he needs to be well, just to give him the best chance at a good life. I'm much more done with not feeling well or feeling like there's a lot going on subtly with me than I am done searching at the moment.

[responding to a question about what can be done about low thyroid function if pregnant]
Certainly there's lots you can do as far as supplements and hormones, and you'd certainly want to know if you are dealing with Hashi's. However, thyroid hormone resistance is not going to show on lab tests.

[JR's question about B12 and ferritin]
Yes I believe so and certainly if you are one of those which need more B12. Plus most people with digestive issues are low in B12 to begin with. And it's one of those nutrients where blood tests are not necessarily accurate to determine how it's being actually used.

see B12 and ferritin discussion here:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/lab-values/

I'm looking into the lactoferrin as posted above. I'm supposed to be dairy free right now though. Cue another "I'm so done with supps" moment.

Originally Posted by JaneS

All those books, Langer's, Starr's, Barnes' address that [low thyroid symptoms while having "normal" blood tests]

Kharrazian's approach is just different than theirs as he uses thyroid hormone as last resort. To use his approach you'd have to go to a dr. that has been trained by him, it's very complex.

Originally Posted by chlobo

So what ratio am I looking for with respect to free t3 & reverse t3? It doesn't say. Just refers you to the book which i do not own.

So, this is what I've got so far:

According to him I'm low in b12 & magnesium (no surprise) and may be low in iron and I may be hypothyroid even though all my test results are "normal".

[JaneS]

Continued from Sept 2010 allergy chat thread:

Originally Posted by chlobo

From the 5 minute video [http://www.thyroidbook.com/] it sounded like the "crux" of his approach is assuming the person has an autoimmune disease - hashi's that's causing the problem. Is that not the case? At any rate, I guess I'll find out when I get the book.

BTW, can you have an autoimmune thyroid disorder if your thyroid has been removed? I'm sure the answer is no.

Can you still have thyroid issues if your thyroid has been removed? I'm guessing yes, because you could still have the same uptake & utilization issues, right?

Originally Posted by whoMe

For Dr K's book, the first half is all autoimmune, but then he breaks down non-autoimmune 'normal' lab tests into his own normal ranges and says which patterns to look for to figure out the cause of your sx.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Jane, are you on any of Susan Owen's lists (sulfur stories, trying low oxalates, ets)? At the end of june of this year, she sent out a summary of what she got out of the mitochondrial disease foundation conference she went to that was really interesting. What *I* got out of her summary is that exercise really, really matters. I'm kind of on an exercise is important kick, though, seeing it everywhere. I think it's my next big piece. If only I could figure out how to fit it in, timewise... pm me your email if you want me to forward you what she sent out.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Is there any reason that a calcium supplement would make my joints ache? I am SO sore today, for absolutely no reason. My hips are hurting so bad I can hardly walk, and my knees and back aren't much better. I just realized that I started taking my calcium supplement again today, after being out of it for a week. Not sure if that's related...

Originally Posted by JaneS

He [Dr. Datis Kharrazian] says ai [autoimmune thyroiditis aka Hashi's] causes most of it. I've also read case studies that antibodies come and go so I've always got that on my back burner for DS especially. He's had some anti tpo which concerned me. I don't know enough to know if some, even though below range, is an issue or not.

Have no idea re: ai thyroid disorder and removal of thyroid gland, but I assume that something will still go on immune wise since there are sx that happen all over the body? And the theory with high doses of hormone is that it is supposed to stop the attack but I dont really understand how more hormone stops it.

Yes if your thyroid has been removed you need to be on thyroid hormone, and yes, the uptake and utilization issue still applies... although presumably your symptoms would be treated seriously and hopefully the dr. would just up the hormone. This is a big issue if the standard T4 Synthroid treatment is used b/c conversion to T3 might be impaired. Sx will still be there, but a lot of drs treat by lab numbers only.

Originally Posted by JaneS

RT3 info
http://thyroid-rt3.com/

Originally Posted by chlobo

ok, something is going wrong in my conversion & math b/c my ration is like .0012

Free t3 2.91 pg/mL which is .291 ng/dL (right?)
T3 Rev 23 ng/dL

so the radio ft3/rt3 = .291/23 = .001265

So did I do that correctly? If so I'm in deep do do.

Ok, one other question. It seems this assumes that you produce inadequate levels of t4? Otherwise how would you rid yourself of t4 just by going off the hormone? What if you are producing t4? Simply going on t3 might just complicate things.

ETA: So I need to raise my ferritin level & straighten out my cortisol first? I've tried straightening out my cortisol & it isn't working.

Originally Posted by JaneS

No, you multiply by 10 not divide. But that would mean your ratio is still close to 29/23=1.26 when it should be 20.

Reverse T3 is only made from T4. So "a theory" is that you give T3 only to shut down the body's production of T4 (when the pituitary sees enough T3 in circulation it will stop signalling production of T4). Then you continue to take T3 only (has to be synthetic, the natural forms such as Armour etc. contain T4). Then the Reverse T3 gradually clears receptors and the active T3 finally works.

What I haven't spent the time on is exactly why the body produces Reverse T3. I've only seen nebulous descriptions its either "stress" or "genetics". It's gotta be more specific than that.

And I wonder if this could be the main reason why some people need very high doses of Armour etc. to feel better and maybe that time tested approach is just simpler. Because T3 only dosing is very very sensitive. You absolutely cannot miss a day and some even say you cannot miss the same pill time everyday, or dose up to 4-5x per day.

What are you doing for cortisol? I'm really up in the air about adrenal only support. Because adrenals can prop up a failing thyroid, but only for so long.

The ferritin seems like a big big factor... 70-90 appears to be the target range when hypo sx start resolving. I'm nowhere near that.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Ok duh, forgot I read this.
http://thyroid-rt3.com/whatare1.htm
Typical for me lately, major brain fog is a sx I'd like resolved!!!

Originally Posted by chlobo

My ferritin was 33 and now its 51. But I haven't been treating it. Just eating more red meat now than during my elimination diet phase. So I guess its good its going up. I am considering floradix for the iron since I have it. Although maybe I should try the stuff you recommended.

I tried all sorts of adrenal supplements and none of them did anything. I tried 5-htp and it didn't help although my ND (now) thinks the dose wasn't high enough.

However, something has changed for the worse for me. Whereas I used to have "some" trouble sleeping, now I always seem too. I never feel like I reach deep sleep. Like its twilight sleep or something. My ND thinks its the b12 I started taking (because I have those pesky genes that say I need tons for my methylation to work). So she thinks I should back off those a little & try a higher dose of 5-htp.

In the meantime, I just sent in a urine amino acid test.

Bsically, I'm throwing a lot of mud at the wall and seeing if anything sticks (nothing so far).

Originally Posted by JaneS

I think if you haven't tried adrenal glandulars that would be the next step?

Does the B12 mobilize stuff then? You are taking early in AM? It helped me sleep but not if I took it later in the day.

Originally Posted by chlobo

I'm pretty sure I tried adrenal glandular. In fact, I'm taking one right now from Yasko.

I take my b12 before 3. Usually before noon.

Yes, it appears to be mobilizing things.

ETA: It doesn't seem like taking t3 at a low dose without a plan to increase would be successful. Does it?

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Is your iron low too? I think I missed the beginning of the ferritin discussion, but it made me curious so I looked at some of my old labs. Last summer, when the doc told me my iron was low and had me supping with 1000mg/day, my iron was at 25, but ferritin was 85. The next time it was tested (a few months later, after supping), my iron was 142 and ferritin was down to 59. Does that mean anything?

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Mine's at 39.

[A reply to JaneS asking about how taking thyroid hormone stops Hashi's autoimmune attacks]
More hormone being supplemented means that your body stops producing the hormone. For some reason, the body doesn't react to exogenous thyroid hormone the same way as it does to hormone it produced itself (it's lacking the "auto" so the "immunity" doesn't kick in).

Originally Posted by JaneS

Thanks, that makes perfect sense!

Should I be concerned on the low grade antibodies for DS? His test was 15 for anti tpo and the range is normal at under 35 IU/ml. I'm worried with the rest of his numbers, any antibodies might mean a problem. He is strictly gluten free and has been for many years now. Well, except for the STBX factor.

DS's Free T3 is below the normal range. His ratio is 1:1 for FT3 to RT3. And if that's not bad enough... his ferritin is 22. Oy.

Originally Posted by whoMe

I got you beat 12, up from 5. That was at the end of June, though, presumably it's gone up more since then.

I *think* ferritin stores in the gut lining, and unexplained low ferritin can be a sign of gut damage/high cell turnover.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Related to this, you have the ACE++ mutation (deletion). What that does is mess with aldosterone - think of it as low level adrenal stress constantly, and magnified in cases of real stress. Adrenal fatigue is common in adults with ACE++ mutations.

I'm starting to read more about this - I don't have many of the symptoms, but I'm wondering if I'm in early stage adrenal/thyroid issues (in the last couple of years, cold feet and trouble losing weight have cropped up). Got a thermometer, taking my temps. DH goggled , last time I did that I was trying to get pregnant. I reminded him he had a vasectomy .

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

When it rains, it pours!
So I got my blood drawn on Wednesday, because I have a physical with my regular doctor next Friday. Well his office called today. Low thyroid, he wants to put me on Synthroid. And not to wait until I see him next Friday. Of course I don't have any of the numbers; it was just a message that the receptionist had.

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

I can't answer your antibodies questions, JaneS. I have no idea if my antibodies were ever <35... Every test I've ever seen for them has been in the thousands... It does sound like he may have a conversion problem though... Although, since iron is one of the substrates used to produce thyroxine... I can't remember where I was going with that thought.

Yes, it can be compounded but I might try to get my doctor to consider Armour/natural dessicated thyroid before going on synthetic thyroid hormone.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Chlobo, I totally missed this a while back (this was 5htp). 50mg makes DS & I (both MAO+) totally wired/edgy/nutso - and then we crash. Note that crashing for me involves not being able to sleep (I think my body swings to low serotonin and then can't make enough melatonin to support good sleep).

So I've taken my daytime temps today - ranging from 98.2 to 97.7. So low (but not crazy) and also swingy. I'll keep temping, but if I understand this correctly, that means at least some level of both adrenal & thyroid fatigue, but probably not crazy for either? I think I'm going to try this supp, glandular support for thyroid & a little for adrenals (I have more adrenal glandular I can add if need be). See if it warms my feet up .

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Hmmm - you could try the time release melatonin, Chlobo. That helps some people stay asleep.

Can you do trace dairy? If you can, I'd give the lactoferrin a try. Jarrow's lactoferrin is from whey, so might also be OK if it's the casein you react to, and not the whey. If not, maybe ferritin. Also work on your B12, some anemia will go nowhere until you have B12 levels up.

Originally Posted by whoMe

You can still temp for a ballpark. Sure, lying in bed right after waking is ideal, but just random temps throughout the day can tell a story as well.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I've been doing daytime temps. The metabolic temping site I linked to above says take your temp 3hrs after waking, then every 3 hours (3 times total in the day). Mid afternoon temps should be 98.6, if they're lower than that, probably thyroid issues (apparently this is one way to track if you have added enough thyroid meds as well). Swinging temps means adrenal issues. I only have one swingy one though, I need a few more days to know on that. The rest of them were 98.1-98.2 (I took more than 3 today).

So, my feet warm up when I eat sugar. What does that mean?

Originally Posted by changingseasons

So if my temp has ALWAYS (as long as I can remember) been 96.8 (unless I'm feeling sick; then they go up to about 98-99), I'm looking at thyroid issues? Maybe I should try temping to see if I get any swinging. hmmmm. I better get a new thermometer... all of ours suck.

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

well, if I'm any indication then YES. that is my exact normal temp prior to thyroid supping. it is now 97.6

Originally Posted by chlobo

Back when I had occasion to test my temps during the day (like a dr. appointment or something) my temps were always low no matter when I took them. Like below 98 so 97 something. But back then I was a lot "colder" than now, although it is a very warm summer. I'll try next week when I'm near a thermometer. What kind do you folks use? Digital?

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

So I've suspected thyroid issues for a while (my temps are 96.8-97.3, only going up to 98.6 if I'm sick). And I guess my blood is finally showing it. The only thing is, the last week I started taking Iodarol because it's supposed to be good to prevent breast cancer. I took it for about 5 days, and not the night before the test, because I was going to start the Tamoxifen (which I started the night after my blood test). So what effect did the iodine have on my thyroid test?

And I remember that I have the type of blood (A) the endocrinologist said one of the thyroid meds didn't work on (but I suspect Synthroid). She put me on whatever she did because of it. Of course I didn't write it down anywhere. I wonder if the pharmacy would still have it. About 4 years ago.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

hmmm... I have to look into that if I end up needing thyroid meds. I'm A as well.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Another type A here, with low temps here, too

Time to buy a glucose meter?


The only time I passed it [the zinc test] was when I'd been taking 90mg/day for a couple weeks...
My sister passed on her first try. So did dh's brother. Dh, not so much.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

I don't know how it's officially written, I think Graves is considered autoimmune, my mom had it and now has no thyroid (sorta no thyroid, when she took some of the supps I recommended a while back, she had to reduce her dosage of Synthroid--which overall has not been a great med for her, I don't thinks he's changing T4 to T3 well, nor is she utilizing it well, she's never felt the same since the irradiation and then supplementation).

[to changingseasons re: calcium]

I don't know any mechanism, my first thought was the osteoarthritis - excess calcium link, The Calcium Lie talks about calcium not balanced with other stuff, mostly mag but really lots of stuff, as being a big piece of the puzzle leading to osteoarthritis, along with all sorts of other stuff. So clearly this isn't o/a right now, but maybe something inflamed along those lines? Maybe extra mag first, then see if you can add the cal back in?

[Theloose]

wow that's a lot of talking we did!

[Purple Sage]

Subbing. I'm attempting to self-treat with natural thyroid supplements (and other stuff) since Synthroid was not working well and I can't afford all the testing and doctor's visits, anyway. I just want my hair to stop falling out.


Maybe I should start following the allergy thread, too.

[JaneS]

And the talking continues...

Originally Posted by whoMe

My sister and I were playing with skin - the mucin arm pinch stuff. All of her skin is way looser than mine. I'm realizing that my extra weight seems to be lactation related - never had it pre-dd and went back to my normal body type when pg with ds. I'm sure there's a clue there, but I have no clue what it is. My thyroid doesn't like making milk?

Eta: I came across a blurb today mentioning that folate protects against birth defects caused by bpa in plastics. Interesting, no?

Originally Posted by JaneS

Hey whoMe,

The mucin logged arm skin is different than fat, much firmer. I wonder if your issue is that of T3 conversion and there is something impairing it when you are lactating?

Clobo and I were talked about iron, are you taking iron and what form?
Is it working? It could be a factor in hair loss if you are still noticing.

I was reading about iron bis-glycinate. I want to try to get my ferritin up, apparently liver and red meat is doing squat and that can also effect thyroid function a great deal. Broda Barnes the thyroid guru says ferritin should be 100 in those with thyroid disorders. Dr. Mark Starr recs ferretin 130 in menstruating women!

Originally Posted by JaneS

Very interesting. Must get rid of it [bpa] through better methylation?

Is there a mitochondria thread around? I feel like I need to (try) to understand that better.

Originally Posted by JaneS

I haven't seen any online just in his book. Supposedly even if you are chubby the skin will separate from the underlying tissue if you don't have mucin accumulating. If you do, it will be impossible to separate on your upper arm. Also outer thigh. It will feel different than another chubby area on your body.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah, the mucin fits much better than fat for me. Iron's definitely low, though I don't think I'm actually anemic anymore . Have you thought about lactoferrin for better iron transport, like yasko suggests?

I'll see if I can get pictures/video of everyone's arm skin this afternoon.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Another rec for lactoferrin - it helps transport iron where it's needed. Just taking iron supps (if you aren't transporting iron well) can cause gut bacteria virulence to increase (iron feeds them).

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

And lately I've been wondering if my skipping my Iodoral (for months now) is having an impact. My hair seems to be falling out at an increased rate lately. I am hoping that right now I'm fighting off something, and the sudden fatigue and feeling blah is an illness and not a downtick in my thyroid function.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Your AM temps should tell you Tanya

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

But they've never been normal, not since 5 years ago. My daytime temps are almost normal, which I've counted as a huge improvement, since for a couple years there, I didn't get above 98.0 unless I was really sick. But my morning temps, while noticeably better than 5 years ago, are still not what's called normal--and I've had times with little fatigue and that seemed very adrenal.

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

I haven't temped in so long. Now you've inspired me to try.

When I was temping, my morning temps were around 95.7, and my daytime ones were around 96.8. But my thyroid test numbers looked beautiful. <shrug> I've never had any other symptoms that would suggest being hypothyroid.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Those are the types of numbers I got at my worst, I felt horrible. (eta: obviously I'm glad you don't!) What thyroid tests were run? JaneS has had recent posts on some reasons even stuff like free T3 and free T4 would look normal (I think it was those, TSH is very erratic, some people see huge changes there before symptoms and some take ages to see any movement in TSH even with a mountain of symptoms).

Interesting. I thought it was interesting, too, when I saw an acupuncturist for a while in the spring that she asked about my thyroid, thought it was a bit low, and I think at the time it was in the probably-somewhat-low-but-I-felt-asymptomatic place it's been for a couple years now. She asked because of my pulse, I think, maybe combined with my tongue, but not because of specific symptoms I described, at least that was my impression at the time.

I'm wondering what it would take to get back to 100%... while in theory I think it's possible, at a more practical level I wonder if it's just not going to happen. I'd like to win the lottery. Guess I should play if I really want to incorporate that into the plan.

Originally Posted by JaneS

I would be extremely surprised if you had no other sx given those very low temps. The sx are pretty wide ranging:
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

Recently I've found out that the alternative allergy guru in our area has found that there is a high degree of correlation between low thyroid function and his allergy patients. Both DS and I have low temps and some sx other than food intolerances. Both of us show low free T3 and high reverse T3. (These tests are not usually run)

I've been intensively researching the thyroid lately. I have concluded that lab numbers mean nothing... especially since most drs go by the TSH and T4 only. My favorite books are by Dr. Stephen Langer, Dr. Broda Barnes, Dr. Mark Starr and Dr. Datis Kharrazian, all of which describe longtime practice of treating sx ... and going by BBT.

Blood tests do not show what is actually getting into the body's cells, nor do they show whether the cell mitochondria is actually using the hormone once it's there. And the common T4 testing doesn't show conversion to active T3, another common problem. Reverse T3 blocks the receptor but is not used by body.

Originally Posted by JaneS

There is not only a toxic and allergy component to block thyroid function as we have discussed but also a genetic component. I have just come across scant mention of this and no in depth discussion. Hoping to find more details. But I have concluded I will not be 100%, and maybe DS too, until my thyroid is.

Originally Posted by chlobo

If there were one book to read to figure out how to treat myself for thyroid, what would it be? Don't have time to read 6. My #s were all within range for everything but I've been wondering a lot lately (especially since the weight gain) if I shouldn't just try treating thyroid.

ETA: That website is down right now. Hope it comes back.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

I know my thyroid took a dive at the beginning of this year- I gained 15 pounds in a month, and I was so fatigued I thought I was pregnant (even though I knew I really wasn't.) I think it started after I started supping iodine, which I'm not doing anymore. I think my midwife will run all the thyroid tests if I ask... I should probably do that. But even then, what do I do to fix it? DD had a few thyroid numbers run- TSH: 1.3, TSH Uptake: 27.6, free T3: 4.6 (almost at the top of the normal range), free T4: 1.24. All seemed within range... is there anything that looks off for her?

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Maybe my low and wide-ranging temps would make more sense if I tell you why I stopped trying to temp. I was getting so little sleep, and so inconsistently (due to the baby, i personally sleep great), that when I would wake up and take my temp I never knew if I had been unconscious long enough to have gotten into a deep sleep. I didnt know if a higher temp by a few points meant any activity in my cycle, or if it meant I hadn't been really fully asleep. I didn't know if a lower temp meant anything or if it was just the result of being so exhausted and not having completed a single sleep cycle in the whole past week.

Originally Posted by chlobo

I wish I had answers but I don't. My thyroid #s were all within the reference ranges but dang if I"m not exhausted, gaining weight along with a host of other things. Grasping at straws now and that's why I was thinking about testing thyroid. Doing 5-htp trial now and so far it only makes me jittery.

Originally Posted by whoMe

I was reading something about if you're low selenium, then taking iodine can make you hypo and vise versa. If you're low in both, you inch them up together. That's where I am right now, I think.

Originally Posted by JaneS

One: Starr's or Langer's b/c they both reference Barnes pretty heavily and focus chiefly on treatment with desiccated thyroid hormone. All 3 of those doctors have treated thousands of patients with success focusing on symptoms and not lab tests.

You can try Dr. Lowe's desiccated thyroid or I would bring either of those books in to the doctors you are seeing and start the discussion.

Two: Kharrazian's is a little overwhelming and his treatment relies so heavily on his custom immune supps.... but I do appreciate his take on how getting the thyroid to function doesn't always mean taking thyroid hormone. I'm not sure that he is the last word however, given the long term success and simplicity of the other doctors' approaches.

I came across over and over again in my reading that things like methylation and even nutrient absorption is controlled in some degree by the thyroid. Not to mention symptom after symptom that rang bells for me esp. digestive and chemical intolerance, so I really see it all as chicken and egg right now.

Adrenal is definitely a concern for you too. A thyroid that doesn't work correctly draws on adrenals constantly to raise metabolism and assures the development of adrenal fatigue. If one doesn't tolerate thyroid hormone, the problem is usually adrenal fatigue.

Google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...-and-pathetic/

Originally Posted by chlobo

So I just realized that i have lumps on my arms. No the underside but the top. Jane is this the product of thyroid problems? Lumpy arms?

Originally Posted by mamafish9

According to the stopthyroidmadness site JaneS links to, 98.6 is normal mid-afternoon temp, anything lower than that is thyroid issues. If it swings as well, it's also adrenals (often they come together). So you take your temp 3 hours after waking (and 20 minutes away from food/exercise), and then 3 hours after that, and 3 hours after that. First thing in the morning temps are lower - so what is your daytime temp?



I'm using digital - the thyroidmadness site says use mercury, but that's just not practical for me. The digitals could be off by a bit, but they should be consistently off (and not by a degree!).

I'm using the guidance at this site to judge want my temps mean

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

The thing I like about this approach is that it doesn't involve repeat blood tests (of markers that are often normal for people who have thyroid issues, especially mild like mine likely are). And, you can keep tracking your temp to see if taking thyroid/adrenal supports is helping.







No, I realized I'd taken my first dose of thyroid support - betcha that's why my feet got warm! I don't have any signs of insulin resistance, I just noticed my feet got warm last night and the first correlation I made was to the chocolate thingie I'd eaten at dinner. Not the raw thyroid. DUH.



We're using those, have been for about a month. Jury is out on them for DH, I think they do OK for DD, for DS, I use them for low protein meals/snacks and use the Yasko ones for higher protein intake.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

I'd be concerned about supp-ing iron, swinging too high isn't good (it's one of the few, along with copper, that I'd want to really be sure was needed before I did a trial with it). I forget, are you already gluten-free? I'd probably cut gluten if you haven't already and add in cell salts, bioplasma (the 12-in-1) and maybe ferr phos? Get a copy (if you don't have one already) of The Biochemic Handbook, same place the cell salts are sold (long thread in H&H about cell salts), the book's just $4. Helps with utilization/absorption of nutrients. Sounds too good to be true but I was able to halve the amount of zinc I give the kids due to start these (and I notice recurrence of symptoms when I slack on the bioplasma). Coolest stuff.

For B12, mamafish's site for liquid B12, holistic heal, is inexpensive and easy to dose, I'd start with hydroxy B12. One bottle has lots of drops, so the bottle isn't cheap, but it'll last a long time.



Yay!



I'd be low level concerned about antibodies. Cutler is cautious about supp-ing iron for people with mercury issues, seems there are some stresses that cause the body to intentionally dump iron. That said, I supp'd iron when my ferritin was low (70-ish, both DO and acupuncturist said too low, I think my iron was perfectly fine) and didn't see any change, good or bad.



One thing I've seen in myself is either over- or under-reactions to things. Like, years ago I would shake and be really affected when, say, a car tried to change lanes into me and I had to swerve to not be hit. Last few years, I don't flinch (even from stuff that I think I should react more to). I think it's a downward step--though lately I am much calmer and happier with the kids. Not super mom by any stretch, but okay-mom, which is an improvement.



I'd assume the B12 is playing a big part in it. It seems like, in people who are super-duper low in B12, starting it is a bitch and a half, and by starting, it seems like it can take a long time to get back to a more stable place.

Do you have any supps that you can ramp up? I'd assume more mag, C, double dose of whatever multivit you've got? Though I think looking at specific amino acids and acquiring a custom blend sounds great, really a good idea. I'd tend to guess that, to get significant relief, you're going to need more than just vit/min supps.

Oh, the other thing--my not being able to sleep in the middle of the night was adrenal-related, and I'd expect the B12 to be stressing your adrenals. My parents are taking pregnenolone for their adrenals--I haven't looked into it much, it's cheap and readily available, maybe consider it? It's somewhere in that chemical chain that adrenal hormones are in.


That's what I saw--swingy was more adrenal.


I have a digital one [thermometer] that I found a few years ago, I wanted to buy a new one but couldn't find one that was accurate enough. +/- 0.2 is not good enough, be sure to know the accuracy of whatever you get. If/when I replace, I'll buy online and make sure it's intended to be a BBT thermometer. I like digital, they seem accurate for me, I know some prefer analog (mercury? alcohol? not sure which).



It could've changed something, hard to say what, I think I felt a little better, my hair started falling out less, when I first started Iodoral, I think within just a few days. So if physical symptoms can change that fast, I'd think bloodwork could (not guaranteed, because my initial bloodwork, when I first felt horrible--cold/fatigue, icky stuff, was pretty normal-looking, and it was slow to trend out of the ref range).

Hey, I think maybe my hair is falling out less, I re-started my Iodoral. Now that I have the Internet again, I need to order more, I've only got about 3 pills left. Sigh.

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I had no physical symptoms that got better when I was taking the Iodoral. And the oncologist looked at me funny when I said I was taking it to reduce the breast cancer risk, so I stopped it (waiting until I have my osteopath appt to see his take on everything; haven't seen him since June). But would the Iodoral made me "get" low thyroid? With nodules, I thought I should have been more prone to hyper than hypo.

Why are there so many of us A blood types... doesn't that seem strange?

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I actually had the information written down. I was on Levoxyl for 3 months in the fall of 2008. I don't have the dosage but I could call the pharmacy and ask. Didn't do anything. That was when I went to the endo and she said my numbers were fine but she'd try me on them for a few months to see if they did anything for me. They didn't. So I stopped. My regular doctor checks the numbers every year (I think just TSH and T3) because I have nodules.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Brownstein's iodine book has a big breast cancer focus. And I SWEAR I read somewhere (don't remember where) that iodine works with selenium and if you're low in one and supp the other, it can make you hypo.

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Iodine can stimulate the thyroid so that it makes more thyroxine which, if you have antibodies, increases their production, causing destruction of the thyroid to hasten. Best I can say on that subject.

Levoxyl = different brand of same medicine as Synthroid.

I'm blood type B- ds1 is AB.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

So I tried this thyroid supp:

http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Sources...ules/6009?at=0

Took one yesterday evening, and my feet warmed up. Took it again this morning, and it made me nauseous, and my afternoon temp is 98.8!! OK, I guess I don't need a whole one! Or I'm sick with DS' puking thing, hopefully the former .

I'm going to split it into smaller doses and add some adrenal glandular (I'll mix up capsules to take 2x/day like the thyroidmadness site recommends).

But for those of you who might want to do a little experimenting with thyroid supports, this one seems to have a decent amount of kick for an OTC option.

ETA: Nope, I take it all back, i have DS' puking bug...

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Interesting about Synthroid and type A blood. When I was 20 my doctor insisted I was hypothyroid from one blood test, and gave my Synthroid. In the same visit, I asked him if on one of the blood tests he could check my blood type because I was curious. Nope, he said. They only check that if there is good reason to. I guess he didn't know there could be a good reason.

---

Re the oral zinc tally test....Every time I've tried it, it has tasted like the most horrible stuff I have ever tasted. Whenever my friends have been curious enough to taste it, they also thought it was miserable.

----

Re thermometers...mine is a Basal Digital brand one. I chose that because it is the only one I found that is accurate to the tenth of a degree, rather than only to a fifth of a degree. A tenth of a degree could mean a lot of you are charting.

Originally Posted by chlobo

Is this the same supplement? A bit cheaper a vitacost

http://www.vitacost.com/Natural-Sour...id-90-Capsules

Originally Posted by JaneS

Since Levoxyl is T4, if you have a T4 to T3 conversion problem and/or a problem with cell mitochondria in accepting and then utilizing T3, it could very well do nothing.


Well mine [ferritin] is in the 30's and DS in the 20's so we gotta do something. I'm going to try lactoferrin with him I think.


I'm real and it [zinc taste test] got better but I haven't passed yet. It's now hydrogen peroxide tasting unstead of "spit it out immediately" bad.



Yep to the low temps. As I've said before, my research now is pointing to the allergies/intolerances being caused by thyroid issues. It would be awesome if you could see some improvement by treating your thyroid.

David Brownstein's Iodine book and also David Derry's book talk a lot about the breast cancer low iodine connection.

Tamoxifen effects the thyroid as well.
http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl1a.htm

My understanding is that nodules are the thyroid's way of trying to cope with low iodine... by enlarging in attempt seek more.

Did you have antibody testing too? What were your numbers?



All Signs Point to Yes. We use some green mercury free thermometer I got at CVS. I think it's been accurate.


Did you have thyroid antibodies tested?



I've had my synthetic T3 for a while now and I cannot get myself to take it. Desiccated thyroid contains T4, T3, T2 and T1, and calcitonin too for proper calcium absorption. (I always remember Hilary Butler's quote: "Excess calcium causes cancer cells to grow like billie-o.")

The doctors that use desiccated thyroid say that there were side effects of synthetics that they don't see now once they started using desiccated on patients. Everything I'm reading is screaming that that is the most bioidentical form. I'd never take synthetic estrogen, and the problems with it are legion, so I'm seeing thyroid as the same way.

Less allergenic desiccated thyroid than Armour is Westhroid or Naturthroid, or Erfa from Canada, check the Stop Thyroid Madness site.

Originally Posted by JaneS

If it were me and I had low body temps and other low thyroid symptoms I'd be grateful for the official go ahead to trial hormones.

I'd try selenium since that is vital for T3 conversion and mercury knocks it down. Standard dose is 200 mcg but some say can go up 400 mcg. Start slow, I had issues with it at first.

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

The osteo is putting me on an herbal instead of the abx for lyme to see how that does for me. He doesn't like the sounds of the Tamoxifen. And he said the regular doctor should put me on Armour or he knows a compounding pharmacy that could make me a safe one. So at least I know that I have options!

Originally Posted by JaneS

Ugh, both computers dying would be like losing my brain! Great news re: herbs and compounded Armour. There are other powders that pharmacies can use as a simple filler. I've heard of acidophilus but that is probably dairy. I think an amino acid too?

Originally Posted by chlobo

Yes I did. The first time they tested both antibodies and they were both negative as in < whatever it said. The second time was only a couple of months later and only one was tested and it was negative as well.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Oh, and building tartar is "genetic" ... I asked, basically he doesn't know. I don't either, but I'll just say "I don't know." I still want to fix it.

Originally Posted by JaneS

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6624423

I have not gotten this cite to read yet but according to other references it says tartar build up is related to low thyroid.

Which is making sense to me b/c calcitonin produced by the thyroid, opposed by parathyroid hormone, influence calcium control in the body.

Just another sx chalked up for DS. I haven't had a chance to ask our holistic dentist about it since I made the connection.

Originally Posted by whoMe

I got the hypo book in the mail today, Jane.
[this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...IN=0975262408]

I've only flipped through to look at the pictures and read a few blips. Talk about a slap in the face! Um, yeah. Where do I sign up for desiccated thyroid? Who do I need to talk to? And after that's settled, I absolutely want to talk about mitochondria and cell walls and all that stuff. My moment of clarity is saying treat with hormones first, then figure out the why, and then start addressing the cell stuff to try and reduce the dosage needed. Of course, I haven't actually read the book yet, and I forget how it all goes with the adrenal stuff (which do you do first again?) or things like iodine/selenium deficiency. And I still want to know how this relates to my myexedmia being very significant while lactating, but not while pg or pre-dd. I've got some reading to do! Awesome book, if only for the pictures and nothing else! (I'll get our arm pinch pics up asap, they look exactly like the examples in the book )

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

So for the arm picture... I'm confused... does that mean you should be able to just pinch some skin on your arm? And if I can't, it's an issue? I've never heard of a "skinny hypo" so now I have to go do a search for that.

Read a book this morning called "Tamoxifen & Breast Cancer" when they first started the study to see if it would prevent BC. And it said 2 years into the study they said it contributed to bone loss in premenopausal women (that's me)

Originally Posted by JaneS

No, that's why I wanted to get it too... the study was mentioned as a reference to tartar somewhere else but that issue is not stated in the abstract. However, I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's another hypoT sx based on what I've learned about calcitonin and his other sx too.

Like his hairy back just found that connection (lanugo due to low body temp) at another cool site I've been poking around in, reading Barnes' and Hertoghe's notes http://www.thyroidresearch.com


No kidding huh?! [in response to whoMe's reaction to getting Mark Starr's book]
Now you all will understand more of why I've been a broken record trying to work this out in my head lately. It was like I'd been slapped upside the head too.

Finding out the interstitial cystitis/bladder lining connection to hypoT just completely floored me for several days!!! I will have a lot of advocacy work to do if I find that thyroid hormone completely eradicates my bladder sensitivity. I can say I'm cured from a regular IC standpoint now b/c I know how to manage it, and supps have helped a great deal, but I would love all twinges to go away and be able to eat sals with abandon. At that point you won't be able to shut me up.

And the Fibromyalgia connection (I don't have FM, just generalized muscle ache, but am reading about it constantly as its just another new dx for an old problem: hypoT) is just huge too, HUGE.

I don't know much about the Natural Sources thyroid extract that Deb posted about yesterday. I have heard other thyroid patients say it's much too weak, and that it might work first and then stop working b/c it's hard to keep upping your dose as your cells start to absorb and utilize the hormone. Everyone is different how much they need.

I've also heard about Dr. Lowe's ThyroGold that is available OTC (site link below) it has the full thyroid hormones intact. Not sure how many grains one capsule is, might be 1/2 or 1/4 grain based on his discussion that most people need 7 caps?

It would be cheaper to go with Armour (although problems with this too, the cellulose filler prevents full absorption, many people are taking sublingually or chewing it up) or Naturthroid or Westhroid. Possibly specially compounded would be cheaper, haven't priced that out yet but will go that route for DS so I'll let you know. I also want to do this with a dr. ideally. I also have a concern about starting something and then not being able to get it anymore. That's a concern with supplements with T3 b/c you cannot stop cold turkey.

DS has to be done with a dr. We are lucky we have a Broda Barnes Foundation dr. for him and possibly me if my current dr. won't treat this way. Or maybe she'll consult w/ him b/c she used to work with him.... hmmmm....

Basically you need to find a Broda Barnes style doctor.
http://www.brodabarnes.org/

One that will treat symptoms and not lab values, like the thyroid used to be treated before the advent of Synthroid and the faulty TSH test.

One who will continue to up your desiccated thyroid dose slowly until sx are gone, not pronounce you cured by watching improved lab values. You need to be aware of hyperT sx and watch for them. Dr. Lowe's website has a good treatis on this and lots of other good info on his site:
http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

Although I would rec getting antibodies and full thyroid panel done first just to know what you might be dealing with.

I really don't know if just iodine can fix a hypoT person, there is certainly a lot of discussion of it... and that was my bent last year as you know. BUT b/c I cannot tolerate large doses for whatever reason its not the answer for me. DS also appears not to tolerate large amounts too but he does great on small ones. I still haven't found the definitive answer why, whether it's detox or what, and we've loaded nutrients up the wahzoo.

Selenium is essential and demonstrable in studies that a deficiency reduced thyroid function, I would start that now if you are not taking already.

Starr's is now my favorite book (his website talks more about it for the people who don't have it http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12), he really goes into a lot of clinical and research detail. I read it 3 times to absorb it all. The connections I'm making to my own quirks, and my family's, throughout my life are amazing.

Starr also addresses the toxicity question which I think about a great deal. But I have also come across the theory that it's the thyroid that controls detox as well. Broda Barnes' called it "the thyroid takes out the garbage".

There was some mention of lactation on that thyroid reseach site I think, don't know what you can find there about your situation. I still want to know about how a fetus's adrenals and thyroid hormones transfer to the mother. Because I felt fantastic the second and third trimester and I think that is why.

Oh and adrenals....
One of the theories of the "examine and treat the patient, not the lab value" style of thyroid doctors is that low adrenals are almost always caused by them trying to rescue a low thyroid.

Because when the metabolism is low, the adrenals will constantly be called on to prop it up. So once some people start thyroid hormone, the adrenals are too weak and you cannot tolerate it, and some cortisol might need to be supped. The gold standard is the saliva adrenal test, from Neuroscience.

Right now many typically test adrenals first, but in the past they didn't I think, just started very slow with desiccated thyroid. Starr mentions it and I forget what he says in his book. I'm waiting for my adrenal test to come back since I have obvious symptoms.

The STTM website has a good outline on adrenals:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/

And good books are Wilson's and Jeffries' with more info at these sites:

http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

http://www.conscioushealing.com.au/i...d=72&Itemid=57



71 degrees now in my sunny dining room. I'm fully dressed with my midweight coat still on and my feet (in shoes and socks) are cold. Hands fairly warm due to typing. Didn't exercise this morning beyond walking DS up the hill to school, usually exercise gets me a couple hours of warmth.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Yep, those are perfect!!! [the arm pictures linked in the first post to this Low Thyroid thread]
Your husband is normal just like the book. I also came across the other day that more women than men are hypoT b/c testosterone increases thyroid or something like that.

Healthy arm skin looks like her husband's skin, thin to pinch regardless of how fat or skinny you are.

If if doesn't, it means mucin has accumulated under the skin. The term myxedema referes to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxedema

Mucin accumulation ONLY occurs from thyroid malfunction according to medical research done by autopsies. It used to be a primary tool doctors used to dx hypoT, but now is not used b/c doctors now just peer at little lab numbers instead of looking at the actual patient.

Other areas of typical early stage mucin accumulation can also include the front of thigh, face and puffy eyes. Later stage is usually the hands and ankles and other areas.

However, and this is a big however.... areas you can't see mucin accumulation in the body can be the most important. Because it can invade the heart, intestines, brain, etc.

The heart can enlarge (and clinical study shows it reduces on thyroid hormones thus proving efficacy). The voice box can accumulate mucin and cause a tell tale hypoT hoarse voice (I have this too, always thought it was allergy related but now I have no sinusitis or hay fever and still hoarse). Other areas of the body can get mucin too, bloating of abdomen for example.

re: tamoxifen and risk of bone loss
Wonder if that's because of how it effects the thyroid and the calcitonin issue I posted above.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Dang - seriously? That's me [the myexdema arm pictures], and I have skinny arms. Almost none of the hypo symptoms fit for me, except weird ones like this and cold feet and low temps (vs. ones that make me feel crappy). Huh.

[re: Natural Sources thyroid extract]
My sense is that if you need minor thyroid support, it could help a lot. If you need more than a couple of capsules, you should get the prescription stuff. For me, I have to pay out of pocket for the entire doc visit and testing (never mind finding a doc that will prescribe, last time my lab values were tested, they were all normal), so I'm trying the self-med route first. And I have Canadian connections, so I'd probably go to the erfa stuff if I need more than a couple of capsules (I'm tracking temps to see where I'm at).

ETA: OK, geez. My husband's skin doesn't pinch at all, and his temp is 97.1. Brrr!!! Can hypothyroid contribute to migraines?

Originally Posted by whoMe

What's getting me about this book is it's listing all sorts of things as symptoms that I hadn't seen before. Like long gestations and big babies that aren't due to gestational diabetes, and lax ligaments (hello dd). It talks about skinny hypos, and tall ones. As I see it, if this is a mito disorder, it can show up in a million ways. And there are so many compounding factors that can cancel symptoms out. It's like a list, and if you have any of the key symptoms, that's good enough. The pictures are amazing. Droopy eyelids, that's so my family.

Jane, I skimmed the mito stuff. I want to go back, and compare it to Susan Owen's stuff, then I'll be ready to talk. Was it you talking about flooding with hormones to regain cell sensitivity? Where was that?

And how do I find the right practitioner? I'll ask my doc, but honestly, I have no idea if it'll be outside her comfort zone... I'm not seeing any directories

Originally Posted by chlobo

ETA: I totally have mucin arms. I'm reading the other thyroid book now and am going to pick Type 2 thyroid up from the library this afternoon.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

Subbing. I'm attempting to self-treat with natural thyroid supplements (and other stuff) since Synthroid was not working well and I can't afford all the testing and doctor's visits, anyway. I just want my hair to stop falling out.

Maybe I should start following the allergy thread, too.

Dr. Lowe's website has good advice for self treater that I can remember but I cannot find the page I was thinking of right now. Lots of info in many places though
http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

Also read about ferritin, I have seen many mentions that it needs to be above 70 to start preventing hair loss. Is that your only symptom? It could be nutritional if so. GLA (in borage or evening primrose oil) a capsule with every meal can be helpful too.

You are most welcome on the chat thread or you can post your own "About Me" thread in Allergies.

[tanyalynn]

You serial poster, you! Thanks for organizing all that, now we'll be able to discuss it clearer and go back when, say, our brains aren't all exhausted and we aren't distracted.

eta: as is buried in those many quotes, for me, personally, hair loss seems to be very iodine related. It was the first nutrient I supp'd after I started having blatant hypothyroid symptoms and the one thing it did very well was stop my hair loss. And lately, say in the past 2 weeks, my hair's started falling out again and I realized that I have totally slacked on my Iodoral. I've gotten generally worn down too, but, well, I ordered more Iodoral since we are all but out and I'll report back within a week or two to say whether that seems to be still my biggest on/off switch.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Question - if you get the right thyroid dose, how fast do mucin arms disappear?

Good question. The before/after pics in the book (of faces) are in the 4-14mo later range. When I got pg, my face and arms were looking considerably different by 10 or 11 weeks preggo. I'm assuming that was mucin.

[JaneS]

The last installment!

Originally Posted by JaneS

Definitely, there's a lot about that in Starr's book.
[about children and hypothyroidism]

ETA: also what was interesting... can't remember if it was Starr or Langer's book... was a discussion on how hypoT's attract and marry other hypoT's. My STBX is most definitely hypoT as well.

Starr's book talks about mito disorders being just simply Hypothyrodism Type 2. Because the sx are the same and they resolve with treatment.

That is what he says... the body needs to be flooded with thyroid hormones to overcome genetic mutations which cause resistance (inability of cells to accept or utilize thyroid hormone so blood levels look normal but cell levels are not, thus where the sx are coming from.)

The Armour website has a list of docs that px Armour, I would call and ask about their treatment protocols.
http://www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx

The Broda Barnes Foundation charges $18 for info on their affliated practitioners in your area.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Mucin arms

I'm so excited to have reading buddies!!

I especially want others with kids like ours to read the part about how TB was eradicated with antibx and thus contributing to more hypoT's in our population. Made my heart sink to think of DS that way. Well I already did since he's ana. I'm so grateful for this thyroid knowledge already.

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

OMG!
eta: definitely have mucin arms..are they supposed to go away with proper treatment?

Originally Posted by chlobo

Are you a member? Is Armour the only thing they px? And what is px anyhow?

So then does Starr think that the other guy is off base? Goes too far? Does Starr not think that everyone has hashimotos? I'm not really sure to go with that b/c it's suspected that I *might* be developing an autoimmune condition. Originally they were thinking lupus but maybe its hashi's, even tho my antibodies were negative twice now. OK, here are a sampling of TSH #s over the last 2 years. Would they be considered "swingy"?

8/10 - .82
5/10 - 1.02
4/09 - .61
4/08 - 1.07

Originally Posted by deditus

OMG, Jane, have you looked at the eyebrow pictures?!? That is me - with no eyebrows on the outer edge. And my mom's family jokes about us young girls in the family having the responsibility of plucking the elder women's eyebrows when they get old because they have such crazy, unruly Hungarian eyebrows. The thyroid stuff comes from my dad's side, they all have the xanthomas, undereye puffiness, that hypo "look".

http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewA...articleno=2261

Oh I see it is called "Sign of Hertoghe". I had heard of it before but never seen a pic.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Emily, I'm going to keep this idea in my back pocket, I want to see how the tartar situation is in 6 months--want to give it time, see if anything's changed already.

So I took the kids' (regular daytime) temps earlier today, both were right near 98.6 F. I should do the daytime temp tracking from Dr. Rind for them and see if anything shows up.

Anyone pinch their kids' arms? Kid arms are so little, wonder if they're easier/harder to pinch the skin (w/o actually pinching, of course). DS was, of course, wearing a thick, long-sleeved top from last winter (that's too small and he didn't want to admit it) but I need to check his arm too.

Jane, are kid arms supposed to be the same with regard to mucin?

Originally Posted by JaneS

Yes, maybe you need more crack... uh thyroid hormone! [response to JR asking if mucin arms are supposed to go away with treatment]

Mucin leaving the body is the sign they [traditional thyroid doctors such as Barnes and Starr] used that treatment is working. And given that it can infiltrate the rest of your body and cause wide ranging sx, I'd want it gone.

Only drs are members [of Broda Barnes Foundation].

px= prescribe, prescription like dx diagnose, diagnosis and sx symptom.

I forget what Starr says about Hashi's if anything. I don't think the 90% figure Dr. K[harrazian] quotes is true from what I've seen. Maybe it is for people whose blood tests are mainstream wonky, but now I fully believe that blood tests only capture a small percentage of hypoT's.

Dr. Kharrazian kind of turned me off ultimately. I respect the idea of detox. Starr does address the idea of detoxing helping mito function in his book. But like Price's research, the traditional research on thyroid function is really speaking to me like a simple elegant solution for right now. Like what Shannon proposed, get the hormone if you are suffering real symptoms, then work on the nutrient/mito issues while your body is working better in the meantime.

Dr. K seems like the new kid on the block, no one else is corroborating his protocols. He could be completely right as his way is the way to correct mito issues and enable your body's thyroid hormones to get through to the cells.... but I started this journey for DS and I can't do Dr K with him.

My impression that swingy TSH due to Hashi's was like 1 and then 8. Those are pretty low TSH's though, that's not necessarily a good thing. I thought under 1 was a real problem?

I was just reading about lupus being treated with thyroid hormone.

Welcome to the club [responding to somebody with mucin arms and/or eyebrows or low body temps or something like that! my brain is fried I hope I'm not messing up these quotes!!!]. I really do think this is the key to the allergy kingdom.

Yes that [eyebrow] sign is named after another pioneer in thyroid treatment, Eugene Hertoghe. There is now 4 generations of his family of endocrinologists and thyroid researchers in Belgium who practice the Broda Barnes way.

I have little thinning in outer edge but not much. I used to have bushy beetle brows until I beat them into perfect 1950's arched submission. Hmmmm, my mother has a lot of thinning. She doesn't have the rest of the hypoT look though. She said her temps are low but not sure if she'd ever go rogue medically.

Can be [whether children can have myexdema=mucin accumulation]. DS doesn't have it but could have had it as a butterball baby. There is a pic in Starr's book of an ASD kid from current day that looks a lot like DS used to with really chubby cheeks.

The absence of mucin doesn't rule out hypoT but the presence of it confirms it.

Originally Posted by JaneS

oops forgot the rest of it responding to chlobo's question....

Broda Barnes Foundation doctors probably px all forms of desiccated thyroid, either Armour, or other brands, or specially compounded.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Not every person needs to have every symptom, that [losing outer third of eyebrow or mucin arms forgot which someone said they or their children didn't have, well adults are usually only ones with eyebrow loss] seems to be a secondary one.

Most definitely [that children can be hypoT]. As I've posted I'm sure my DS is based on his sx: cold intolerance, low body temps, allergy/digestive issues, respiratory issues, chemical sensitivity and slow growth. And his Free T3 is below normal lab range so something is clearly wrong.

The older medical literature on children is mostly focused on really severe hypothyroidism where the child looks, well, malformed. I think most of us mamas here with hypoT symptoms are dealing with children where there is only a lesser degree of impairment not 100% thyroid malfunction. Which would make sense if you think the idea of thyroid cellular resistance makes sense.

There is a lot of discussion in Starr's book about how this resistance is usually passed on from the mother and he gave a genetic explanation why involving the mitochondria I believe. WhoMe's probably reading that right now and will pipe up. When he diagnosed children he always looked at the mother and the connection was clear.

As I wrote above there is a short case study in Starr's book about a young child from modern day (I think 4yo) with ASD and mucin and digestive issues and I forget what else (book went back to library). He looks healthy but obviously was not. I wouldn't be surprised at a major thyroid resistant - ASD connection right now. There are a few studies on frank low thyroid blood values and ASD.

Barnes theorized that 50% of the US population is hypothyroid which is an interesting story based on research from the past on infectious disease deaths that weed out the hypoT's. Now we have a population that has been kept alive through modern medicine/antibiotics to reproduce and pass on our hypoT genes. What if this is the allergy/intolerance connection we all share?

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Wow about the eyebrows! I've got really perfect eyebrows. (I get comments.)

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

I confirmed DH has mucin arms. I remember something seemed just a bit off with his thyroid bloodwork a few years ago, not to the point of treatment and not really symptomatically, at least I think/hope he'll feel better once we tweak other stuff--ooh, cool beans, we were talking last week and I brought up having a phone consult with Elisabeth and he was interested and he filled out the intake form and is emailing to set up an appointment. that he has the same type of results as many in this forum have had with themselves and their kids.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

I wouldn't interpret it to mean that infectious diseases were weeding out hypoT people so much as people with hypoT were more susceptible, I'd say with nutritional issues playing a large role, and now with the additional stressors of weird-ass chemical exposures and poor nutrients as common things, this is the way these people manifest those weaknesses first. If even DH has mucin arms, and he's got a very, very different set of genetic strengths and weaknesses than I do, then I'd say this, like type 2 diabetes is a common manifestation of crappy diet. I don't think that people who develop type 2 should've been weeded out at any point, they are just extra susceptible to this incredibly poor diet we've adopted.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Yes, infectious disease especially of the respiratory kind weeded out the more susceptible hypoT people, that's what I meant to say at least. There's entire research on this based on Graz, Austria autopsies and studies of deaths from influenza and TB reducing hypoT people in Starr's book.

Not that additional stressors and poor diet aren't happening for sure .... causing the genetic and functional mito issues? Barnes mentions how the Hunza are remarkably resistant to TB and have great endocrine systems. I have no doubt traditional nutrition produces a body with a great endocrine system. However, it's certainly not fixing broken ones in this house right now.

Edit: and my hope is that the ASD/thyroid connection would include a knowledge of thyroid cellular resistance and the mito connection. When I was on those groups they didn't, normal thyroid blood tests were seen as proof you don't have a thyroid issue.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

ACK. Umm... does gaining 90 pounds and having a 10.3# baby count? [as a HypoT symptom, and yes they certainly do] And I have REALLY loose ligaments. [another clear sign from traditional medical research] When I did physical therapy (for almost a year) after a car accident, they had a really hard time getting my muscles to stretch out, because I was "too flexible." I always thought that was weird because flexible was a good thing, right? But now it makes sense to me, and I've noticed it a lot more since I started paying attention. When I do stretches and stuff, it never stretches/pulls/whatever in the place where it's supposed to, no matter how far I stretch.

Yeah. Definitely going to have the midwife take more blood next week for thyroid stuff. What all do I need to check? I know TSH, free T-3, free T-4, reverse T-3, reverse T-4, ..... what else?

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Jane, forgot to quote. More and more I am thinking that fixing this stuff sometimes takes a lot more than nutrients and stuff to get metals (or whatever your (eta: "your" in the more general sense, not specifically you, Jane) issue is) fixed. I wonder how much homeopathy can do? I'm sure it's a case-by-case basis, but it seems to fix things in funky efficiency/utilization-type ways.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I have the Starr book on order, but it sounds like the issue isn't an underproducing thyroid, but rather a problem getting the thyroid hormones where they need to go and doing what they need to do? I know adrenal is a piece of that, and there are some mutations in the Yasko stuff that cause issues there. Also several mutations that can impact mitochondrial function. As soon as I get and read the Starr book, I'll see if I can piece that together with Yasko.

Shannon, you mentioned cell membrane stuff, what's up with that? Cell membrane fluidity is a huge deal for Yasko stuff, particularly for people with ACAT and VDR-Fok mutations. If you don't digest/metabolize fats well, your cell membranes can get "stiff" from lacking fat molecules. If that sounds relevant, I'll go dig up the list of "fluid membrane" nutrients. Eggs are killer high in a good number of them... DS tests well for mito type markers, and I think pastured eggs are a good chunk of the reason why.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Starr is taking specific mito issues, that present with hypo symptoms, and *defining* that as hypo type 2. So it's completely separate to hashi's, another issue altogether.

Betcha THAT'S why I felt better almost as soon as I got pg again [men don't have as many thyroid problems b/c of their high testosterone] - ds is a BOY!

Yeah, both dd and ds are similar to me [having mucin arms], though the amount I'm pinching is smaller. They definitely don't have the loose skin feel that dh does.

Starr's book has a bunch of stuff about infants and kids and hypo. So yeah, most def.

I went and looked at dd's baby pics and compared them to the ones in the book. Big fat oops. Talk about mama guilt! Yeah, she's absolutely positively got the 'look'.

How this is passed on through mom:
The mitochondria in our cells have their own DNA. They're like their own little entity. Almost like their own little bacteria living in our cells. When a cell multiplies and divides, the mitochondria do the same. When a sperm fertilizes an egg, it sticks its DNA in the nucleus, but the egg supplies the rest of the cell body, including the mitochondria. So everyone has their mother's mitochondrial DNA. They even use it to track genealogy.

Now, the interesting stuff from the mito conference that Susan Owens posted to her groups talks about the mitochondria evolving in your body, depending on what stresses you put or don't put on it. Its like there's a whole world in there, with mutations and natural selection and everything. And the mitochondria in one part of your body can (and does) evolve to look different than in another part, due to the different use. Remember, they all originated from that one egg. Mind blowing. Makes me want to read Madeleine L'Engle again! But first get a major workout in

Kind of OT, but this reminded me, when I was reading vitaminK a couple years ago, she was moving kids from lugols to potassium iodide (I think) because of something to do with one causing more thyroid problems. Like the iodide pushed T4->T3 but the iodine did the opposite? One of many things on my list to go back and read!

That's the thing with this mito/type 2 stuff. It's about the symptoms, not the tests. There is a chapter on lab tests, but I haven't digested it yet.

Originally Posted by whoMe

The basic idea is that the number and size of mitochondria in your cells will determine your metabolism, and thyroid hormone is a/the major controller of that. Exercise appears to be another; and this is in contrast to the actual enzymes of krebs cycle and stuff. The pathways may be working perfectly (my guess: normal enzymes and normal metabolites and such), but if you only have a teeny tiny trail, it's not going to do you much good when what you need is a highway.

Somehow, and this is where I'm still hazy and want to read it all again, you can get in a rut to where you can't get the thyroid signal to the mitochondria, and so you don't produce enough hormone. Or something.

There are thyroid receptors both inside and outside the cell, and iirc, thyroid is a fat soluble hormone, which means it *should* be able to pass straight through the membrane.

Am I weird that it makes me smile that the issue of how does thyroid interact with mitochondria and your metabolism was one of my big questions when I was learning about arsenic in my guinea pig thread?

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Couple thyroid related things from the Yasko forums... She often sees thyroid issues as a result of chronic gut bacteria (and depleted BH4 tends to go along with that, along with low dopamine & serotonin). Several moms on the forum with thyroid issues weaned off prescriptions by focusing on methylation (which includes Kreb's cycle & mito stuff in the Yasko world) and membrane fluidity. High estrogen can impair thyroid hormone production. Think that's all I found so far.

Originally Posted by whoMe

One last thing to get off my head - Starr mentions that increasing thyroid hormone can increase need for nutrients. And that would make sense, as your body ramps up, it would need the tools to do so.

Originally Posted by chlobo

I'm wondering if my kids might have hypo issues. Just because of the whole growth thing. However, I think DD has multiple problems. I'm pretty convinced she has sensory integration issues. Especially around the social aspects. It's making me very sad right now b/c its really impacting her ability to have friends.

Did anyone else notice in Starr's book how thyroid treatment was conducive to getting married? Seems all the women treated went on to get married right away.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yup

On the thyroid topic, your thyroid totally affects how you use nutrients, and I've seen a lot of connections between sensory stuff and nutrients. So there's the possibility that the multiple issues are just multiple manifestations.

Is it too late for a thyroid thread?

One part I want to examine is causes, effects, and nasty cycles. Like if low thyroid causes you to accumulate metals, and then those metals keep you low. And how this all relates to my pancreas. And I'm willing to bet that lack of exercise is as major a contributor as 'bad genes' not getting weeded out due to modern medicine. But then there's that cycle again, not enough exercise -> not enough energy to exercise.
[WhoMe, let's address this here in this thread.]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Tests here http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/
but also do the basal body test.

Proper method for BBT:
- shake down thermometer and put it beside your bed.
- do not eat or exercise or have an argument with your significant other for 12 hours beforehand.
- right when you wake up take temp under arm, do not move, even to pee you are going to have to hold it. Don't drink or eat.
- the best thermometer to use is not digital but one that looks like mercury, there are special BBT ones.
- place under armpit for 10 minutes, then read temperature.

I was just reading again that the best times for women are the 2nd and 3rd day of their cycle. Otherwise it can fluctuate normally between 97.5 and 98.5 (normal BBT is 97.8 to 98.2) due to ovulation temp rise and such.

Although for those of us in the 96's it really doesn't make much difference!

I hear you totally [to Tanya]. And I admit I need fixing. Maybe I'm just giving up on the metals and homeopathy for now b/c it's just not available to us for various reasons, I'll admit that too!

When traditional medicine says the thyroid controls detox I certainly want to believe it at this point since so many other things make perfect sense in our situation. I'm feeling like the past 5 years of intensive healing and nutrient loading was our chance and I'm just so done with that approach.

Not that I'm not going to still be a nutritional junkie. Awaiting a new B supplement with salivatory excitement!
http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/Max-Stress-B


Starr said that mito defects can cause the thyroid hormone not to get into the cell, or if it can get in, the cell can't use it. Thus the cells can't signal back to the hypothalamus that it needs MORE thyroid hormone b/c it's not getting very much in the first place. So blood levels stay "normal".

and I think both Broda Barnes *and* Suzanne Somers has called it the beauty hormone!


goitrogens that block iodine and thus block thyroid hormone, so no raw spinach:

http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-...the-cross.html

Originally Posted by chlobo

But Dr. K's contention is that *most* hypothyroidism is actually hashi's in disguise. I'm just not sure how to make all this jibe since my tests are mostly normal and they all say that tests don't matter its just symptoms.

Well if I have the symptoms how am I supposed to know if its hypo type 2 vs. hashi's vs. reverset3 disease vs. something else if my tests are all normal?

Originally Posted by chlobo

I'm not kidding. Some of those women looked great in the after pictures. And probably actually ahd some energy to put out.

Originally Posted by ASusan

I've been following this thread with interest (and dismay). I will have to get my hands on this book, although it's not in any of our libraries or extended library system so Amazon may get a few $ from me.

I'm tall, thin, gained 50+ lbs with DS and he was 8lbs 10oz. I have been super flexible but not in the right places. When the rolfer and PT said I was tight, it didn't make sense, because I've always been able to reach beyond my toes...SO many other pieces of the puzzle fit for me.

Originally Posted by whoMe

The second half of the book talks about when you don't have antibodies, though. I want to go through and read that one again now, its on the shelf!

Part of it, though, is does it matter? Isn't treatment mostly the same (hormones) whether it's autoimmune or type 2 or what? There's the extra autoimmune support stuff, but that seems like good stuff to be doing anyway...

I figure all this nutrient loading is necessary - with increased mito action, nutrient requirements increase, and so any deficiencies will be exacerbated. It's all groundwork

Okay, he's saying that bum DNA means we need extra hormone to get the same signal across. He talks about new DNA damage, but not evolution. And talks about how for some people, it might not be the mitochondria, but the receptors. I want to take a look at other things that are necessary for DNA transcription (vits A and D, perhaps) and that angle. My numbers are off just enough (still within range) to think that I could still make use of some nutritional stuff, especially A. And iodine. And selenium. And sodium and potassium and...

Originally Posted by chlobo

So if you have blocked receptors that is the theory of the reverse T3 people, right? That the reverse T3 is blocking the receptors and you need to get rid of it at the receptors so that the T3 can get in there instead.

What does he say you should do for blocked receptors?

Originally Posted by JaneS

My conclusion is that "most CONVENTIONALLY DIAGNOSED hypoT's with out of range blood tests" could be mostly Hashi's. I don't think it applies to the HypoType2 people.

Well reverse T3 is shown on blood tests (and btw I think I screwed up your ratio numbers b/c it was dl vs. ml wasn't it?)

And it seems to me that traditional thyroid treatment with natural hormones gets by all that. It seems to me that Broda Barnes and Mark Starr et al would have known if they had a problem treating patients with hypoT sx.

Actually Starr did say that he saw some people who didn't tolerate thyroid hormone because "they were too toxic". And he does mention some need for adrenal support. And companion nutrients (selenium, zinc, iron, mag. the usual suspects)... so it seems to me that whatever the specialized diagnosis of the day these are the ways around it.

put out and keep house!!

[to ASusan's post I think]I went through the stages of grief about this I think in the past few months. Esp. with respect to DS. Now I'm like.... bring on the hormones baby!

Yes, you are right... I meant it in the way of thinking "if I could just find the right combo of nutrients DS and I will finally heal all these issues". I will still be nutrient loading big time, but my expectations have changed ykwim?

Totally cool. I've been on the acai bandwagon lately too. It might be doing something. But it hasn't turned me into a "ready to put out and clean the house every day hot tamale" yet.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Anyone have/read this b12 book?
http://www.amazon.com/Could-Be-B12-E...4757810&sr=8-2

it's rec'd by Starr, but just as a 'must read' no other details...
eta: apparently there's a new version coming out in march. wishing I could find some of these books at the libraries here!

Yay for teeth breaking through and long naps So far I can blame ds's bigness on my thyroid. Maybe the early teething too?

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

!So went for my physical today. Got my thyroid numbers. All they checked was:TSH 8.71 (ref range 0.27-4.5)FREE T4 0.83 (ref range 0.93-1.70)Want to see my last few years, to check the way it's been moving?So the doctor had never heard of the Bio-Throid I found. They checked with local pharmacies and no one has ever heard of it. He said if I got the info for him, he'd do whatever it took to get it for me. Or if I could find another lactose/corn free, he'd order that too. That it wasn't urgent, so he could wait a week or so while I figured it out. Anybody know of any hypoallergenic ones?

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

So clearly those thyroid numbers aren't ok, glad you've got something clear-cut.

And I'm ignoring low thyroid stuff that could be involved (strangely, although I've been overweight, and am again, it doesn't seem to track much with thyroid stuff). lalalalalalalalala

[tanyalynn]

Okay, I read the original thread but Jane, I'd like your opinion (or I missed it earlier). When BBT testing isn't that convenient (say with kids), what are your thoughts, from your reading, on daytime temps, a la Dr. Rind?

I'm going to check all of us on a couple more occasions, at 5-6pm-ish today, DS and DD were 97.9 and 98.0 respectively, I was 98.0, and DH was 98.5. DH was my control because I wanted to see if my thermometer had taken a fall and now had a huge offset. Nope. Need to keep checking several more days, and I may try Dr. Rind's 3x/day, every 3 hours approach, to see variability, but I was surprised at the kids' numbers. Why? Cause I have my head in the sand.

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

Also, totally different question for all takers. Anyone got links to a BBT thermometer? Last time I tried to buy a new thermometer locally, I couldn't find one that was more accurate than +/- 0.2 F which is really not good enough. Tried the local HFS, a few pharmacies, just struck out. I have a digital BBT thermometer now, accurate to +/- 0.1 F, and I _think_ it's been accurate but with the moves and a few falls, I sometimes wonder.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Duuuuude... you officially have Hypothyroidism Type 1!

It would be very interesting to see if your back pain improves with treatment. And other sx if you are willing to type them all out. I don't know if you want to do that here or in the new thread I started?

Just please promise me that you will treat to symptoms and not lab tests?

I think you would have to go with specially compounded desiccated thyroid from a compounding pharmacy. ERFA from Canada has least ingredients but it has corn.

Now you can be our first guinea pig and maybe not be corn sensitive after a while on thyroid hormone wouldn't THAT be awesome!?

Wait did they check your antibodies?

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

Yeah, surgery is because the Tamoxifen bombed. I'm still feeling the effects. Today I'm getting all sorts of hot flashes (so not looking forward to menopause) and my back is absolutely a wreck. Maxed out on my anti-inflammatories and as much Mg as I can stand and taking Advil max dose. And had DD2 rub Arnica all over my back. And cell salts. Nothing is helping. Ugh. I can take the thyroid discussion over to the other thread.

The hot flashes can also be indicative of thyroid impairment, there is mention of it in Starr's book and talks by Broda Barnes. Also the back pain too. I really hope these do improve for you!

Antibodies?

[kjbrown92]

The regular doctor is the one that is treating me, and he'll treat to numbers, not symptoms. However, the osteopath wanted a copy of the labs, so if my regular doctor stops treating me, I wouldn't be surprised if the osteo still was okay with treating to symptoms. So hopefully, I'll get some healing. Hmmm... okay so my blood test was Wednesday and I started Tamoxifen that night, so I didn't want to start on the thyroid meds right away (on Thursday when they called with the results), so is my progressively worse back probably thyroid? That would be interesting, if it started getting better, since the endo said that my back issues couldn't be thyroid. The doctor did not test antibodies, because he said "it doesn't matter whether it's Hashis or not because the treatment is the same, and I only test if it matters for treatment". So should I ask for the Hashi test anyway? Or is it academic? I was tested in 2007 for Hashis and it was negative, but are you saying it could start at any time? I didn't get to the library today.... I need to get the Starr book. I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc. So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Okay, I read the original thread but Jane, I'd like your opinion (or I missed it earlier). When BBT testing isn't that convenient (say with kids), what are your thoughts, from your reading, on daytime temps, a la Dr. Rind?

I'm going to check all of us on a couple more occasions, at 5-6pm-ish today, DS and DD were 97.9 and 98.0 respectively, I was 98.0, and DH was 98.5. DH was my control because I wanted to see if my thermometer had taken a fall and now had a huge offset. Nope. Need to keep checking several more days, and I may try Dr. Rind's 3x/day, every 3 hours approach, to see variability, but I was surprised at the kids' numbers. Why? Cause I have my head in the sand.

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

and you have family history of type 1 too right? Like we do. That makes it more likely that thyroid is your achilles heel. Like I said above, I honestly had to go through a grieving process with this with respect to DS. That is why I got a wee bit obsessed as we saw on this board, in order to process it. Now I'm excited that this could be the connection I've been searching for all these years.

All in it's own time dear mama.

My DS was fine with BBT, he was warned ahead of time. But I think daytime temps are also good. It seems that other holistic thyroid doctors mention them besides Rind.

I also notice with DS that now that the weather changed, and not really all that cold here in MA! he is so temperature sensitive. He gets cold really quickly (like I do), cold hands/feet/ears, so that's another easy thing to watch for.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I need to get the Starr book. I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc. So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?

yup, yup and yup.

I'm still trying to figure out what my kid hypo sx were, cause I'm certain they're there but it's not obvious what they were.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

so is my progressively worse back probably thyroid? That would be interesting, if it started getting better, since the endo said that my back issues couldn't be thyroid. The doctor did not test antibodies, because he said "it doesn't matter whether it's Hashis or not because the treatment is the same, and I only test if it matters for treatment". So should I ask for the Hashi test anyway? Or is it academic? I was tested in 2007 for Hashis and it was negative, but are you saying it could start at any time?

Yes, Hashi's could start anytime.

Yes, treatment is usually the same (unless you go the way of this chiro www.thyroidbook.com) however, if it were me, I'd want to know that I had an autoimmune illness, I might approach it differently from a supplement standpoint. And be more vigilant about testing antibodies to make sure they are suppressed.

Also risk of children might be higher to get it? Are you all gluten free?

The Starr book talks about back pain and HypoT ... I'm not surprised that a conventional endo isn't aware.

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc.

Wow, yes indeedy!!

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?

Not sure, I would. After all my DS blood tests are worse than mine! (his free T3 is below normal range.) And his health is much worse than mine as a child. I really think HypoT Type 2 is the root cause of all these allergies/intolerances. And so I would also track your children's symptoms and BBT's.

I was very healthy as a child, just hay fever starting at puberty. Then the digestive and bladder/ interstitial cystitis major problems starting in my 30's. Mild constipation throughout life. Not really liking to be active, slept a lot. Tended to be slightly overweight. Needed glasses at age 7, indication of low vitamin A and could be thyroid related (retinol is not converted from beta carotene very well in hypoT people).

[dannic]

Okay, so what if I had abnormal numbers last summer and treating with natural thyroid hormone made things way super worse? And iodoral gave me massive migraines? What about treating adrenals first? I got off all the thyroid stuff, treated my adrenals, and much of the thyroid symptoms went away...I'm not perfect yet, tho...

[JaneS]

Dr. Rind recs a certain brand of thermometer doesn't he?

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

You serial poster, you! Thanks for organizing all that, now we'll be able to discuss it clearer and go back when, say, our brains aren't all exhausted and we aren't distracted.

eta: as is buried in those many quotes, for me, personally, hair loss seems to be very iodine related. It was the first nutrient I supp'd after I started having blatant hypothyroid symptoms and the one thing it did very well was stop my hair loss. And lately, say in the past 2 weeks, my hair's started falling out again and I realized that I have totally slacked on my Iodoral. I've gotten generally worn down too, but, well, I ordered more Iodoral since we are all but out and I'll report back within a week or two to say whether that seems to be still my biggest on/off switch.

Do I win anything for biggest posts ever???

Thanks for reminding me about iodine, I should add my iodine thread here:

THE Iodine Thread
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1091794

I haven't been able to supplement more than a few grams of I, not sure why, the salt detox doesn't clear the horrible fatigue that happens for me. I'm supplementing mag and B vits and a gazillion other things but apparently my detox pathways don't want to work (if that's what's going on with the iodine reactions).

I keep meaning to try Nascent iodine since Moneca said she loved it a short while ago.