Low Thyroid Symptoms but "Normal" Blood Tests - Page 3

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Where do I find the Susan Owens post?

OK, thinking through mechanisms now.

T4 needs to get into cells. That's apparently via both passive & active transport. Passive "leaks" across, and that only requires good membrane fluidity (which can be issues for some people, particularly ACAT/fat digestion & metabolism issues). Active transport goes against the concentration gradient, and that requires help. Taking a guess that for some people, the active transport breaks down, so they are reliant more on just the passive transport. Taking thyroid hormone would help in that case (even if tests are normal) because it would increase the blood concentration of hormone, which would increase passive transport - amount "leaking" into cells).

An abstract I'm using to chase down more info on the transporters:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15727804 So, two basic classes of transporters.

The first one, NTCP, can be kicked into high gear by cAMP, says here. Likely does it both by increasing transport rates (playing with ions) and translocating proteins (sticking more of the transporter proteins in the cell membrane). So hypothesis might be that cAMP is low, so not as many transporter channels in cell membranes. Low cAMP is also implicated in ADHD/autism/Alzheimer's (prefrontal cortex higher order thinking stuff). So need to learn more about that. cAMP is made from ATP - so if mitochondria don't produce enough ATP, one consequence might be less thyroid hormone getting in (which decreases ATP production even further). Yasko has stuff on increasing ATP, must go read. I'm also giving DS straight ATP (for a methylation cycle step) - maybe that would be an interesting supp for this kind of hypothyroid?

That's probably where a hormone 'jump start' can also be helpful?

Another line of thought that interests me here - these channels depend on sodium concentrations. ACE++ mutations and adrenal fatigue both result in changes to sodium retention. Wondering if early stage adrenal issues result in slowdowns of these sodium dependent transporter channels, so less thyroid hormone gets in... Shannon, any idea if it is na+ concentration inside or outside of the cells that matters for triggering this gate? And would higher concentrations slow down or speed up the gate?

Thats going to depend on if it's a symporter or antiporter. Symporters move Na+ and the hormone/whatever in the same direction, so increased sodium concentration would increase hormone transportation. Antiporters trade sodium for hormone. I always forget which way sodium and potassium go, which is inside the cells and which is outside. But the transporter might use sodium potassium pumps to work against the normal gradient, too.

Second kind of transporters, OATP class, example MCT8. Serious defects in MCT8 can cause low muscle tone and no speech. Shannon, can you see this gene in your 23andme test?

Of the two genes mentioned, there are 9 SNPs for the first and two for the second. It looks like the first is more associated with goiter and the second with resistance? I'm homo for all of the first ones (no clue which versions are normal) and no history of goiter. I'm hetero for one of the second, which seems to fit better based on labs.

Another good overview http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/0...bst0330228.htm

Then T4 has to be converted to T3 in cells - if this isn't working well enough, does that show up on the standard thyroid test? So for those of us with "normal" tests, probably not the problem.

By Dr K's ranges, comparing ft3 and ft4, I show a slight pattern of underconversion. Basically, my ft3 is at the low end of lab-normal, and my ft4 is mid-range. His explanation is that it's either high cortisol blocking the conversion, or membrane damage due to inflammation/chronic infection.

Then T3 needs to bind to receptor sites. This could be where the mitochondrial damage kicks in. DNA repair is a key function of methylation, so guessing that well functioning methylation would help out quite a bit here. Might also be genetic mutations for receptor sites that are hereditary (which makes more sense to me as a mechanism for "hereditary" hypothyroidism than what Starr is proposing)

Where's the 'too early in the morning' smilie? I sooo wish I could have an afternoon to just sit down and go over all this with a study group. Instead I have to go to the beach and a farm to pick up pastures chickens

[Theloose]

I thought I posted this yesterday!

Just rereading the susan owens email finally. This is what she says Dr Bruce Cohen rec's for mitochondria support:

Coenzyme Q10 540 mgs/day
L-carnitine 990 mg/day
Riboflavin (no amt. specified)
Alpha lipoic acid 600 mgs/day
creatine monophosphate (dose not specified)
L-arginine (dose not specified)
Folinic acid (dose specified)

I will say that others at the conference (including posters) uniformly
suggested 200 mgs/kg/day on the arginine. That is a HUGE amount.

[tanyalynn]

... I just want to point out that a) alpha lipoic acid mobilizes several heavy metals quite a bit, and b) 600 mg is a LOT of ALA. It would incapacitate me and I've done a helluva lot in the past 3 years to reduce my metals. Certainly anyone nursing or pregnant or TTC should avoid it IMO. And anyone with unexplained health issues should get a good idea of root cause before taking that--cause hey, if you're reading a thread on thyroid function, I think considering heavy metal involvement would be helpful to working through a list of possible causes.

Many people, maybe most people, with mercury issues have thyroid problems (thank you, amalgam fillings). This doesn't imply that most people with thyroid problems have mercury issues but it's something to consider as part of the search for root cause.

[chlobo]

So I'm having a problem converting my most recent thyroid test results into Dr. K. compatible #s.

Mine Lab Range Dr. K range
TSH .82 ulU/mL .34 -5.60 1.8 - 3.0 mU/L

FT3 2.91 pg/mL 2.50-3.90 300-450 pg/mL huh????

FT4 .79 ng/dL .54-1.24 1.0-1.5 ng/dL

rT3 23 ng/dL 11-32 90-450 pg/mL


Anyone want to help me out? Especially with that FT3 #?

[kjbrown92]

Let's see what I can remember without quoting....You're right, testing for Hashis would give me more info (since once you have one autoimmune disease, you're more likely to get others).My kids are going to think I'm crazy (they already do) if I start taking their temp every day just to track it.How much gluten did the Egyptians eat? And how did they eat their wheat? If you look at the sourdough experiments, and how the really old sourdough strains actually digest all the gluten in the bread, enough to declare it "gluten-free" by FDA standards, if they were pretty much doing sourdough, then maybe they weren't in fact eating that much gluten. Unless they were doing other things to their wheat. It's like people saying we've been having dairy and wheat for thousands of years so why are people now having trouble with it. We eat it DIFFERENTLY than we did thousands of years ago. We're putting crappy soy lecithin in everything. That wasn't around thousands of years ago, neither was dried pasta I don't think. And "modified food starch". Etc. They just called me a freako because I pinched all their arms...

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

The post is on sulfurstories and trying low oxalates, or I can pm it. I'll see if I can post it here, that would be helpful!

PM please, or post here

Originally Posted by chlobo

I don't buy the exercise to fix faulty mDNA. I just don't. First off, I'm too tired to exercise. Second, when I do exercise even though I'm tired it just makes me feel worse to the point of crashing. So there has to be something else to fix it besides exercise. But hey, if it works for you then I guess go for it.

See, this is why I don't know where to turn. Although I was coming around to Starr's POV last night when I realized that my mom has osteoprosis and is shrinking, which would be consistent with what he says about hypothyroidism. And thus if she has it, its possible she passed it on to me.

Here's my thinking so far - I think for those of us with ACE+ genes, adrenal fatigue and/or sodium/potassium balance is more likely to be the underlying cause. I actually suspect for most people, "thyroid resistance" is a symptom, not a root cause - but thyroid hormones make a really effective bandaid. Not true for people with adrenal issues though.

ACE+ causes you to retain sodium, dump potassium. If I'm understanding the NTCP main channel for getting thyroid hormone into cells, high sodium is not helpful (Shannon, it's confusing, but I think they're active transport pumps that push sodium out, potassium in).

Increasing thyroid hormone would increase flow into the cell via the other two pathways, which is helpful in the short term. But the NTCP pump deals with more than thyroid hormones - they move a lot of other stuff in and out of cells as well. So I'd rather try to address the root cause (rebalancing sodium & potassium) for long term, instead of taking thyroid hormone forever.

This is just a early stage theory, however . About 43% of the population has the ACE+ mutation, however, so it seems like it would fit. And it explains some stuff for my DS (should relate to issues with cellular calcium & magnesium as well), so it's a theory I'll keep chasing...

Originally Posted by chlobo

I've been trying to fix my adrenals for a while now and it doesn't seem to be working. And right now I'm just plumb worn out. I need a bandaid.

Take the p5p and NADH - if my son is any indicator, those will help your energy and mood substantially .

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by chlobo

So I'm having a problem converting my most recent thyroid test results into Dr. K. compatible #s.

Mine Lab Range Dr. K range
TSH .82 ulU/mL .34 -5.60 1.8 - 3.0 mU/L so low

FT3 2.91 pg/mL 2.50-3.90 300-450 pg/mL huh???? gonna guess that translates to a 291, slightly low

FT4 .79 ng/dL .54-1.24 1.0-1.5 ng/dL so low

rT3 23 ng/dL 11-32 90-450 pg/mL so 230, normal


Anyone want to help me out? Especially with that FT3 #?

which pattern does that fit? (I'll come back)

[mamafish9]

That mito support list is nuts - lots besides ALA on that list can cause issues for people with lots of crap to detox. Yikes!

Yasko's list is longer (no surprise, LOL). You can see it in her mito compounded supp here. My son doesn't have any test markers indicating need for mito support though.

So next steps for us - about to walk to the drugstore to get iodine to patch test the family. I know we're all good on selenium, zinc, etc. DS is on ATP supp, we'll see what that does on his next pee test for sodium, potassium, and phosphorus levels. I'll take a look at mito markers on his next test again as well.

ETA: Thanks for the mito PM, Shannon. What I get from that is three things. First, something that bothered me in Starr - passing on worse mito DNA to my kids. My eggs were created before I was born - so damage done during my life shouldn't be inherited, it should just impact my health. Second, addressing methylation helps prevent damage and repair DNA, so it's an important piece. Third, the recos for supps are huge - it's "flooding" again - and mostly flooding to speed up mitochondria (so it's a function issue, rather than a damage issue, although damage may reduce function). A lot of that in the autism world - it tends to work awesomely well for a few months, then problems arise. Guessing if you have a deficiency, mega doses are helpful.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

That mito support list is nuts - lots besides ALA on that list can cause issues for people with lots of crap to detox. Yikes!

Yasko's list is longer (no surprise, LOL). You can see it in her mito compounded supp here. My son doesn't have any test markers indicating need for mito support though.

So next steps for us - about to walk to the drugstore to get iodine to patch test the family. I know we're all good on selenium, zinc, etc. DS is on ATP supp, we'll see what that does on his next pee test for sodium, potassium, and phosphorus levels. I'll take a look at mito markers on his next test again as well.

ETA: Thanks for the mito PM, Shannon. What I get from that is three things. First, something that bothered me in Starr - passing on worse mito DNA to my kids. My eggs were created before I was born - so damage done during my life shouldn't be inherited, it should just impact my health. Second, addressing methylation helps prevent damage and repair DNA, so it's an important piece. Third, the recos for supps are huge - it's "flooding" again - and mostly flooding to speed up mitochondria (so it's a function issue, rather than a damage issue, although damage may reduce function). A lot of that in the autism world - it tends to work awesomely well for a few months, then problems arise. Guessing if you have a deficiency, mega doses are helpful.

just replying to what i can atm - don't put too much weight in the patch test. but enjoy the walk!

some of this is also a balancing act of when is it worth it to just pop the hormones and stop worrying about the cause?

[mamafish9]

For the patch test, is it inaccurate all around, or works if you're deficient, but passing doesn't mean anything?

I'm all about taking the hormone when it comes to me. When it comes to putting my son on it, that's a very different issue. And for those of us with normal tests, getting the hormone isn't all that easy!

So question - do all of you get oral & armpit temps that are the same? Starr says they should be, standard medical stuff says oral is 1 degree higher. I'm closer to the second. It matters, because for DS, all I can get is armpit.

[Theloose]

I forget the details on the patch test. I think if it sticks around a long time, that *might* tell you something. But iodine changes color pretty easily (vit C turns it clear, starch turns it blue, etc) so I don't think I've even done it on myself yet.

Gonna reread and take notes, now that I have half a brain and two hands on a keyboard Ignore the jumping around

So I definitely am +/- for SMB2, a selenium binding protein that results in low activity of selenium proteins, like for converting t4->t3, glutathione peroxidase, etc. Not sure what to do about it, selenium doesn't appear to be useful. My mom's ++. I also don't know what my specific mutation does, just that it is in fact a mutation.

------------

According to Dr K, chlobo, you've got hypoT secondary to pituitary hypofunction (pg 78), which can be caused by postpartum depression and/or adrenal stress (so helpful ). Supps are pituitary and thyroid glandulars, rubidium sulfate, sage, L-arginine, gamma oryzanol. mag, zinc, manganese. And adrenal support. So focus on your adrenals first, and your thyroid will get happier, sez I. I know you've been trying. Think of it as an excuse to not worry about your thyroid at all and focus energy elsewhere.

[Theloose]

gonna back up a bit for a bigger picture.

Starr is talking about a not-enough-mitochondria issue. So the question is why isn't there enough, and how do we get more? And one answer is exercise and the other is more thyroid hormone. If you go the hormone route, the question is why isn't there enough, and what do you want to do about it?

In any case, it seems that as you get more mitochondria, especially via exercise, you get healthier, more efficient mitochondria, and the DNA *does* change.

So the hormone route, cause that's what's likely suppressing them in the first place. Either there's not enough hormone stimulating the mitochondria for whatever reason, or there is, but the mtDNA sucks and so it doesn't count and you need more. That's Starr's conclusion. We'll take a look at not enough stimulation cause it's easier to do something about.

Possible reasons:
-Bad receptors on the mitochondria
-Low T3 entering cells
-Low conversion of T4 to T3 in the cells (does this happen in cells or outside them?)
-Low T4 entering cells

And this is where the Dr K book is handy, for the sake of figuring out some of these details, and how to identify which pattern.

he says:
-cellular resistance can be caused by testosterone and high insulin levels (insulin resistance/PCOS), characterized by high-ish FT3 and FT4 can be caused by high cortisol -or- high homocysteine -or- genetic predisposition
-low free hormone but normal total can be from insulin resistance
-low conversion can be caused by high cortisol -or- deterioration of cell membranes

So not much biochem, but it's a great start. Deterioration of cell membranes (pretty vague, huh?) he credits to chronic infection or inflammation/lipid peroxidation.

So where are we? Bring down any high insulin levels, bring down any high cortisol (where does that leave low cortisol adrenal fatigue folks?), reduce infection and inflammation. Support cell membranes and hormone transporters/converters. Sigh. Everything's a symptom of a thyroid problem, and a thyroid problem's just a symptom itself!

Vitamin A appears to affect how well thyroid receptors in the nucleus function. It also appears to be an inhibitor of mucin production. Given that I'm pretty certain that I've had thyroid issues forever, but that the mucin is only showing up now, I'm wondering if it's a low thyroid AND low vitamin A thing? Anyone?

-----------

Okay, on to the membrane proteins.
There are the transporters. That's what you were looking up, yeah Deb? Passive diffusion isn't interesting. Active transport is. Possible variables:
-low cAMP (should be 'jump start'-able?)
-sodium/potassium concentration. Hmm, one thing the hormones do is increase sodium potassium pumps, so in theory, better regulating the concentrations. This might be jumpstartable too, with good electrolytes?
-genetics

There are the converters, the deiodinases. I think there are three of them? lost that link
-SECISBP2 (aka SBP2) is responsible for attaching selenium, and can be broken to various degrees, genetically.
-selenium is key
-dr k says zinc, too

And general membrane health.
-reduce inflammation
-reduce chronic infection (I still don't get what this MEANS)
-reduce lipid peroxidation

Dr K says:
-liposomal cream with glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and phosphatidylcholine.

Yasko says: (deb?)

My knowledge says:
-low PUFAs
-good omega 3:6 ratio
-glutathione

Masterjohn on glutathione (haven't read it yet):
http://westonaprice.org/blogs/the-bi...utathione.html
------------

So then, how do we tell what pattern we're looking at? Guess and check? Where do we start guessing? What do we look for?

K, that's all I got right now. Off for a brisk walk with ds in my new running shoes Gonna fix that DNA good!

[mamafish9]

Just got my hands on a copy of the Dr. K book.

I'm guessing adding thyroid hormones doesn't increase mitochondria, just stimulates them - if it added new mitochondria, stably, then you wouldn't need thyroid hormones forever.

I think electrolyte balance is a big piece - so that means understanding where you are high and low - hair test? A/D/K2 as well, and having calcium decently regulated.

I think proper lipid digestion & metabolism is a big piece, and then inputing good fats (3:6 balance for sure, and enough, but not too much to end up with partially oxidized fats). Eggs are a great natural source of PS/PC. Yasko also uses policosanol for membranes.

Deal with toxic metals, several of them mess with cell membranes & receptors.

cAMP - still figuring this one out, but digesting fats and carbs well to turn them into ATP is an obvious prerequisite.

Liver & kidney support - a well functioning urea cycle to clear out crap and help keep electrolytes balanced.

T4 -> T3 happens in and out of cells, sounds like some people have low blood T3, so convert fine outside of cells, but maybe not inside. There are the 3 deiodinases, 1 works everywhere, the other two are location specific (e.g. one is only in the CNS I think). Might help explain why symptoms vary so much.

Chronic infection is a yasko thing - viral or gut bacteria loads cause lots of oxidative stress and use up energy. So guessing it just means the thyroid can't keep up.

I'm taking a serious look at the exercise stuff though. Daily yoga, coming up! I need to do some morning yoga and see if my temps change during that day.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Just got my hands on a copy of the Dr. K book.

I'm guessing adding thyroid hormones doesn't increase mitochondria, just stimulates them - if it added new mitochondria, stably, then you wouldn't need thyroid hormones forever.

I would expect the size and number to gradually go down by default, for the sake of saving body resources, and be stimulated to increase according to need by thyroid and exercise. So without the exercise component, it wouldn't surprise me at all to need thyroid hormones forever. Assuming you're doing exogenous hormones and not increasing your own production, of course.

I think electrolyte balance is a big piece - so that means understanding where you are high and low - hair test? A/D/K2 as well, and having calcium decently regulated.

Definitely calcium, but doesn't it take a specific hair test to be able to tell relevant sodium/potassium ratios? One where they don't wash it? Pretty sure I read that somewhere... Swelling is one sign of imbalance, and lack of energy, and leg/foot cramps.

I think proper lipid digestion & metabolism is a big piece, and then inputing good fats (3:6 balance for sure, and enough, but not too much to end up with partially oxidized fats). Eggs are a great natural source of PS/PC. Yasko also uses policosanol for membranes.

besides the genetics (which isn't me, as far as I can tell), what are other markers for lipid digestion and metabolism?

And really, too much fat leaves you with partially oxidized fats?

Brains are also really high in PS

Liver & kidney support - a well functioning urea cycle to clear out crap and help keep electrolytes balanced.

have we looked at the lists of supps (the mito one and the yasko one and the Dr K one) to see what each one *does*? What's the point of all the arginine? Interestingly, it's converted to citrulline and combined with aspartate in the urea cycle. I'm high in aspartate and low in citrulline and arginine...

T4 -> T3 happens in and out of cells, sounds like some people have low blood T3, so convert fine outside of cells, but maybe not inside. There are the 3 deiodinases, 1 works everywhere, the other two are location specific (e.g. one is only in the CNS I think). Might help explain why symptoms vary so much.

happen to know which one SECISBP2 is relevant to? by chance?

Chronic infection is a yasko thing - viral or gut bacteria loads cause lots of oxidative stress and use up energy. So guessing it just means the thyroid can't keep up.

Dr K is talking about it too. So that means gut healing can make a big difference? So which comes first? The thyroid or the pancreas? Which will heal the other? Of course we all know the answer is to do them both at once.

I'm taking a serious look at the exercise stuff though. Daily yoga, coming up! I need to do some morning yoga and see if my temps change during that day.

dh claims he's going to help me remember to eat my liver and get at least 30 min exercise every day. Says he's always wanted a morning jogging partner. I'm so not a land animal, but don't really have a pool anymore. And we do have a jogging stroller now. Hmmm...

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

I would expect the size and number to gradually go down by default, for the sake of saving body resources, and be stimulated to increase according to need by thyroid and exercise. So without the exercise component, it wouldn't surprise me at all to need thyroid hormones forever. Assuming you're doing exogenous hormones and not increasing your own production, of course.

What else stimulates? This is like raising your basal metabolic rate, right? So smaller, more frequent meals, I think - need to read more on that.

Originally Posted by whoMe

Definitely calcium, but doesn't it take a specific hair test to be able to tell relevant sodium/potassium ratios? One where they don't wash it? Pretty sure I read that somewhere... Swelling is one sign of imbalance, and lack of energy, and leg/foot cramps.

I see it in DS' hair and urine tests both, and they are similar, so I've assumed the hair test is accurate.

Originally Posted by whoMe

besides the genetics (which isn't me, as far as I can tell), what are other markers for lipid digestion and metabolism?

There are some MAP test markers, and CSA markers, I think. Floating poop is bad, a hard time getting A/D/K levels up even with adequate intake. Evidence of mineral deficiencies (cavities, etc). Low energy. Bad gut.

Originally Posted by whoMe

And really, too much fat leaves you with partially oxidized fats?

Brains are also really high in PS

EWWW, and I think so.

For people who have the NOS mutation, Dr. Amy says too many omega 3s can downregulate the NOS even further, so control intake. We stick to food omega 3s and control 6s.

Originally Posted by whoMe

have we looked at the lists of supps (the mito one and the yasko one and the Dr K one) to see what each one *does*? What's the point of all the arginine? Interestingly, it's converted to citrulline and combined with aspartate in the urea cycle. I'm high in aspartate and low in citrulline and arginine...

In general Yasko uses them to push various steps in the Kreb's cycle and urea cycles. DS has high arginine, low citrulline - so we are supping citrulline to help with that (citrulline has a backdoor path to clear ammonia). Arginine is often high in people with NOS mutation, so I don't know why you'd supp more.

Here's more from Yasko, "Overall mitochondrial/Krebs support can include: pantothenic and riboflavin along with carnitine to help the flow at 12:00 into the cycle. Lactoferrin, GSH and curcumin depending on genetics and other test values to move from 1:00 to 2:00. NADH, riboflavin, niacinamide, ATP, benfotiamine to get you around to 7:00 to succinate. Vitamin E succinate, various forms of B12 (hydroxy, methyl ,adenosyl), CoQ10 and vitamin K to get beyond the succinate/MMA issues and then the direct use of carnitine fumarate if needed as well as malic acid".

Originally Posted by whoMe

happen to know which one SECISBP2 is relevant to? by chance?

D2 I think, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16228000

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/140/2/844

Originally Posted by whoMe

Dr K is talking about it too. So that means gut healing can make a big difference? So which comes first? The thyroid or the pancreas? Which will heal the other? Of course we all know the answer is to do them both at once.

dh claims he's going to help me remember to eat my liver and get at least 30 min exercise every day. Says he's always wanted a morning jogging partner. I'm so not a land animal, but don't really have a pool anymore. And we do have a jogging stroller now. Hmmm...

My much more simple explanation for the epidemic of more symptomatic hypot is that we don't move. We lead very sedentary lives, and pg/little ones particularly so. I don't think it's accidental that a lot of us started seeing some additional symptoms around the time we had little ones - adrenal fatigue, stress, no exercise.

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by whoMe

According to Dr K, chlobo, you've got hypoT secondary to pituitary hypofunction (pg 78), which can be caused by postpartum depression and/or adrenal stress (so helpful ). Supps are pituitary and thyroid glandulars, rubidium sulfate, sage, L-arginine, gamma oryzanol. mag, zinc, manganese. And adrenal support. So focus on your adrenals first, and your thyroid will get happier, sez I. I know you've been trying. Think of it as an excuse to not worry about your thyroid at all and focus energy elsewhere.

Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?

[chlobo]

How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by chlobo

Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?

Good question, I don't know. Kidney supports in theory should help, but with a system that is melting down, it might now. Several of the supports I told you about are more active forms of B's, try those - they are important for mitochondrial function, so that would increase energy and should decrease the stress on your adrenals.

Originally Posted by chlobo

How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.

I've always been an insanely fast reader. It's Shannon's fault I'm reading biochemistry now .

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

What else stimulates? This is like raising your basal metabolic rate, right? So smaller, more frequent meals, I think - need to read more on that.

yeah, raising basal metabolic rate. Not too much protein, is that from Starr? And it seems prudent to keep insulin in check. The blood sugar folks talk about long gaps 3-4 hours, minimum between meals for the sake of building up insulin reserves and properly using them.
[/quote]

There are some MAP test markers, and CSA markers, I think. Floating poop is bad, a hard time getting A/D/K levels up even with adequate intake. Evidence of mineral deficiencies (cavities, etc). Low energy. Bad gut.

I'll come back to this when I'm ready . But how do we know about A/D/K levels? How do we know what's just a bad deficiency vs bad absorption? What are adequate levels for a baby. Preschooler? Tandem nursing mama with major deficiencies?

For people who have the NOS mutation, Dr. Amy says too many omega 3s can downregulate the NOS even further, so control intake. We stick to food omega 3s and control 6s.

That's SO me! Now I want to know the mechanism. Omega 3's give me ingrown toenails. Teething gives them to ds. It sure would be nice to figure that one out!

In general Yasko uses them to push various steps in the Kreb's cycle and urea cycles. DS has high arginine, low citrulline - so we are supping citrulline to help with that (citrulline has a backdoor path to clear ammonia). Arginine is often high in people with NOS mutation, so I don't know why you'd supp more.

Here's more from Yasko, "Overall mitochondrial/Krebs support can include: pantothenic and riboflavin along with carnitine to help the flow at 12:00 into the cycle. Lactoferrin, GSH and curcumin depending on genetics and other test values to move from 1:00 to 2:00. NADH, riboflavin, niacinamide, ATP, benfotiamine to get you around to 7:00 to succinate. Vitamin E succinate, various forms of B12 (hydroxy, methyl ,adenosyl), CoQ10 and vitamin K to get beyond the succinate/MMA issues and then the direct use of carnitine fumarate if needed as well as malic acid".

Will come back to that one, too

D2 I think, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16228000

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/140/2/844

Awesome

My much more simple explanation for the epidemic of more symptomatic hypot is that we don't move. We lead very sedentary lives, and pg/little ones particularly so. I don't think it's accidental that a lot of us started seeing some additional symptoms around the time we had little ones - adrenal fatigue, stress, no exercise.

I definitely agree with the exercise bit. But I think a big part of the reason it shows up with LO's has more to do with the nutritional depletion of pg/lactation. It puts an extra drain on any existing minor deficiencies. At least, that was the bigger factor for me, I think. Stress actually went WAY down after dd was born, for the 6mo before the food restrictions started in, and while the reactions were getting progressively more frequent/severe. And exercise levels didn't change much from the couple years prior.

Originally Posted by chlobo

Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?

I think the sodium in sodium ascorbate cancels itself out getting used by the ascorbate so it doesn't count. I'd go by taste - if salt tastes GOOD, use a lot of it. I was drinking salt water every morning, and while I didn't have the huge relief of symptoms from it that some report, I definitely could feel the difference.

As far as supporting your adrenals, id look at what's stressing them and try to address *that*. The vitamins were totally clear cut for me, and now I know its likely cause of poor digestion/absorption. I wouldn't stop the vitamins, but if they're not having a huge impact, I'd look for other causes. Like the metals. And then focus on lifestyle stuff to reduce other stress. You know, the stuff thats almost impossible to change as a mom of young kids? Sleep, having dedicated time to relax, etc.

Originally Posted by chlobo

How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.

I've been reading it all many, many times over cause I'm not at all retaining it like I normally do. And I got some of that much needed time to myself yesterday afternoon to just focus

[Theloose]

More random musings...

Think mom can pass on low mitochondria action to the baby by being low while pg?

And if thyroid hormone acts on both the mitochondria AND the nucleus with protein synthesis, but exercise only affects the mitochondria, then what does that tell us? Are there any clues for which might be the initial problem? I'm wondering if body temp and energy levels have more to do with the mito while food reactions and such are a sign that exercise alone won't cut it?