Frustrated with 11yo son see post# 33 for update

[LilMamiBella]

Ds is driving me crazy! We started virtual school last month and fir the first week or three he was doing his work independently. I noticed that he was getting bad grades so I asked where were all the questions he was supposed to have answered? He never did any of the questions in the books and only did the quiz at the end. Which of course every quiz he did was terrible. All F's!!
So then Dh and I had to work long hours with him to do overdue lessons and to also show him that this work he's supposed to do isn't optional! Seriously he's 11 and knows how work the computer and he knows how to read. He just didn't want to do the work. He constantly whines and gets frustrated easily. He always wants me to sit next to him and help him with the answers. I have an 8yo dd who is also doing thus virtual school and needs help since she doesn't use the computer as much and has always been doing relaxed homeschool. Ds is on Ritalin and he just went up to 30 mg. I don't see any difference and don't thnk it's working for him. He'll get up in the middle of school and go outside and feed the dogs or go to his room without asking me! He'll go play in the bathroom.

He gives me a hassle every time he's supposed to take his meds. He'll act like he's going to vomit. Mind you he does this 3 times a day!
He does guitar class, hip hop team, and jazz class. He absolutely loves this! I have been thinking of taking him out of those for his bad grades and behavior. We pay a lot of money and we have told him about maybe taking him out. He acts like he doesn't care. He does help out around the house. He'll do dishes or sweep and mop. Nothing we do or say changes him. I don't know what to do!
Do you have any ideas or suggestions?

[LilMamiBella]

I can't edit right on my phone but I wanted to add that he picks on his sisters and makes them cry at least once a day. He has hit and pushed the 8yr old a handful of times. He has made her think that she's fat. She has even been watching what she's eating! I feel terrible and have told her that she's not fat!

[mom2grrls]

How long are you expecting him to sit at the computer? Is there a time of day where he's more focused? Have you sat down with him and asked how he feels he could get his work done more thoroughly(rather than just threatening to take things away and expect him to just do it).

[LilMamiBella]

He has 5 hours required school time. He has books that he could read offline but because he has the quizzes/tests/portfolios online then he mostly does all work online. He seems pretty focused around 9-11. He thinks the best way he could get work done is if I sit with him the whole 5 hours and help with each question that he can't figure out within 5 mins. Literally! I just can't do that. Dd8 needs help too and then I have two babies who are constantly wanting me too. Dh helps out sometimes but he's usually exhaused after working 14 hours a day. I had thought of having my mom come down and help out for a couple of months but we are now not on speaking terms. She actually said that she thinks she got the wrong baby! Seriously it has been very tough for me. I'm literally pulling my hair out over here! (

I had thought of going back to our old way of homeschooling but the virtual school keeps me accountable and I think the curriculum is outstanding and it was free!

[Mackenzie]

I dunno... I mean 5 hours of computer time is a lot to ask of the more focused student. I know it would be torture for all three of mine (12, 10 and 6)... are there no alternatives? What was he doing before this virtual school? I know that it is frustrating but if he is doing chores decently (I would sell a toe to get chores done properly around here) and all three of those classes, I would say he's not the problem here, and take a look at the structure not being a good fit for him...

[LilMamiBella]

I don't know..If he was in public school he would be in there much longer than 5 hours. Not to mention he'd have to wake up earlier. So you think he has no problems with his behavior and that its just the schooling??!

[Mackenzie]

Not saying he has no problems with his behavior; his treatment of his sister would not be acceptable in my house at all. However, it does not seem like the method of schooling is right for him. It's not the length of time but the length of time needing to be dedicated to a computer. In public/private school, there more going on than sitting at a computer. My daughter, which is not only my oldest but most focused and mellow child, would be very difficult to get to dedicate 5 hours to the computer on a daily basis. Are there no other homeschooling options for you?

[LilMamiBella]

He has a required time of 5 hours but if he's not messing around he can get things done much earlier and he has. He has gotten things done within 3 hours before so I know he can do it. I unschooled/relaxed homeschool with him for the last 3 years. He spent 90% or more of that time watching tv or playing on the computer. I felt like I was failing him so that's why I decided to do the virtual school. I have it set up so that Fridays are almost nothing to do except physical education and art. So its 4 days of the week with math, lang arts, science, and social studies. And like I said before he could do those subjects out of the book but he prefers to do them online.

[Just1More]

Could you try setting up a daily schedule for him? Maybe you could break up his school time over the course of the day instead of "sit here until it's done"?

You could try putting things he enjoys (even just free time) at then end of each school session. If he goofs around, then he misses his free time. Do maybe 45 min. increments, and then switch to something more active. It would still mean you would check what he was doing at the end of the 45 minutes, but that would be the only time you'd need to check. If it was done properly, then he's free to go. If not, he misses free time.

Or maybe you could divide up the subjects. One day he does several on the computer, and some the in the book. The next day he switches? Just to keep it all from being the same-o, same-o every day?

[almama]

Honestly, I would take a deep breath and make a date with him to discuss what you both need and how to get him there in a respectful and balanced manner. I would be prepared to throw everything out.

You are talking about taking away things he does well in and loves to punish him. It seems that you are reacting to a crisis, instead of interacting with him to partner for his education (all this is easy for me to say, and I know it is a lot harder to do!).

What is your goal of homeschooling, or education in general? Is it to have him get a high school degree, get some basic competencies, or find his passion? All are fine ideas, but once you figure out your goal, you may be able to negotiate with him more clearly.

What is his goal? Is it to keep taking these extra classes? Learn basic skills?

Then what is your family goal? Time for your small kids, help around the house, low-maintenance homeschool curriculum? If yes (and maybe they are not, or there are more, but just trying to give an idea), you can help him see what you cannot compromise on in order to help him with his goal.

Then I would set out a list of responsibilities and rights. For example, you have a right to stay home for school, but you have the responsibility to let your sister have a peaceful day.

I'm a little biased against these types of curricula because I think computer time is very draining and distracting, and for a kid who is in need of Ritalin, I would guess it is even more so. I would think lots of hands on time, mentors, and real world responsibilities would be more effective. But, you need to do what you feel is best for him.

If you are to stick with this curriculum, I would set out those rights and responsibilities and work in lots of breaks and real world time (with his input). Is it 20 hrs a week, or 5 hrs a day? If a week, I would use the weekends and make the time as short as possible on a daily basis too.

Have you tried posting in the homeschool forum?

[happysmileylady]

11 years old is 6th grade, right? In a middle school, kids are changing classes, going to their lockers, etc. They get a break of 5ish minutes approx. every hour.

What if you set up some sort of schedule like that for him, where he works for an hour (or whatever) and then takes a 5 or 10 minute break to go feed the dogs or listen to music in his room or whatever. If he can get the work done faster, maybe even make it a 45/15 set up. Perhaps having that scheduled break on a regular basis would help him get rid of that energy.

[phathui5]

Five hours seems like a lot of schoolwork time, even for an eleven year old. My oldest is almost ten and the most "school" he has to do in a given day is 2 1/2- 3 hours.

[LynnS6]

I think it's too much to ask an 11 year old to focus for 5 hours straight. Add in the ADHD and you've got a recipe for disaster, IMO. I teach college students and even I have to change activities every 30-45 minutes or so to keep my students' focus. If I were teaching 6th grade, it'd have to be much more frequent than that. It's not that they're not working, but there is a shift in how they're doing it.

My kids are in public school, but they're not focusing for 5 hours straight. The longest stretch they have is reading groups (90 minutes for my 4th grader, 120 minutes for my 1st grader). But within that time, they're partly working on their own, and they're partly working in groups. I doubt they have to focus for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. They change activities pretty frequently, even if it's the same topic. And then there are actual physical 'breaks'. They move from room to room for reading. They go to music/art/PE/library. They go to lunch. They go to recess (twice).

Another thing to think about: What kind of temperament and what kind of learner is your son? If he's a hand-on learner and is an extrovert, then a virtual academy may be a bad fit for him. If he doesn't learn well through reading, but learns through listening or seeing, how can you meet that need? Also, it sounds to me like he needs social interaction to get his work done, and he's doing a lot of (negative) things to get that social interaction.

Instead of fighting him on this, why not take advantage of the structure of homeschooling with a virtual academy to make it work for you? Schedule in regular breaks. Having him go outside and play with the dogs or do something physical sounds like a really good idea to me. Maybe he can work for 30 minutes, take a short break, work some more, etc. Set up a schedule and get a timer (I really like the Time Timer, but even a stop watch would help) to help keep him on track.

Instead of taking away the things that he loves and he's good at, how about having him 'earn' rewards that will help him with his school work. If he focuses for 30 minutes on his school work, then you'll sit with him for 10 minutes to work out the stuff that he's having a hard time with.

If he's got ADHD and he's struggling with school, he needs things that will help him feel good about himself. Don't punish him by taking those things away.

I think it might help both of you to learn more about temperament (Understanding Your Child's Temperament by William Casey is a good start) and Learning Styles -- I don't have a book recommendation for that, but I know there are good ones out there. Another thought is to read the Mislabeled Child. It talks a lot about learning styles.

[sewchris2642]

I had a similar problem with Dylan last year when he was in 6th grade (11-12 yo; also his first year of home schooling--charter school; 2 days in a classroom, 3 days at home). I also watched my grandchildren (then 4/5, 2/3, and 15/18 months) and I work at home. Together we came up with a working schedule. He did his daily chores (taking out the trash and recycle, picking up dog poop) before breakfast. After breakfast, he went on a 20 minute bike ride which counted for PE. Then came math and LA. He had my attention for those 2 subjects while the 2 oldest grandchildren colored, painted, cut and pasted, or played play dough. Then came break time. I took the grandkids for a walk. Dylan was welcome to come along or he could stay home and have free time. That took about 20 minutes. Then he did history and science on his own while I worked, the 2 oldest grandchildren played, and the youngest took a nap. Usually he was done with history or science before lunch and finished up the last subject after lunch. I was available for questions. Breaking things up between sitting and doing school work and physically moving worked for him. So did knowing that he had my (mostly) undivided attention for the subjects he most needed help with.

This year (7th grade, he's now 12, will be 13 before the school year is over. 3 days in the classroom, 2 days at home), he is more in charge of his assignments. He looks them up on the school website and does them in whatever order he chooses. I'm available for help and to answer questions but he is more on his own than he was last year. And I only have 2 of the grandchildren pt time. The oldest one is now in K (goes to the same charter school as his uncle but is home different days). The 2nd grandchild is in pre-school opposite days than her older brother. The 3rd is now 20 months old. So I only have 2 on Dylan's Monday at home. His other day home, Friday, there is only him and me. But he still does his morning chores before breakfast and rides his bike before sitting down for school. And has a free time between his 2nd subject and the 3rd.

If your son is on Ritalin for whatever reason, he probably needs the physical breaks between subjects or after a certain period of time (say 20 minutes every hour or whatever, even up to an equal number of minutes of physical activity to sitting down). Just from what you posted here, I'd say that he needs more physical activity to off set the number of hours he is sitting doing school work (either at the computer or in front of a book).

[heartmama]

I homeschooled ds his first 14 years, and we did virtual school only in the last year and at most for two hours a day--at 13 years old.

Homeschooling with virtual school does not work for every child and it does not seem to be working for your son. 5 hours in front of a computer sounds like it could be stifling--and it is *not* what he would do in school at all. You cannot compare the quantity of time and think the quality of the experiences should match too. Kids in school do not do 5 hours of straight coursework alone, not even in high school. Much of the day is spent changing classes, getting settled, chatting with friends, watching and listening to other actual children talk, as well as live interaction with a live person. It is a sensory rich environment--totally unlike the quiet isolation of homeschooling at a computer.

I am a huge supporter of diversity in educational choices, as well as homeschooling and virtual school options, because every child learns in different ways. But having said that I think there are very few 11 year old children whose needs will be met with the schedule you have described. My son could never have done that--it would have been so incredibly stressful and created so much resentment. Just the thought makes me quail--and he is a super mellow kid that actually can spend hours on the computer as long as he is in control of the when and why of it. Doing virtual school was *not* like playing games on the net.

You say he loves the activities he does outside the home--the social activities. He sounds like a social person and I think you should consider that homeschooling is not working, at least not with this format. Far from taking away his social activities, I would start fresh and look at what can be done to meet his needs rather than punishing him into being the kind of rare kid who can accomplish 5 hours of online work from his home each day--or if you do think this can work, start with much less computer time and work slowly to see what he can manage--if he continues to seem unhappy, I would explore other homeschooling formats and perhaps other educational options.

[blizzard_babe]

OK, so unschooling didn't work for your kid. Full-time (five hours is pretty much full time for an 11 year-oldbrain) virtual schooling isn't working. There's a LOT of happy medium between unschooling and full-time virtual schooling. Something that combines the structure that you like (and that your son probably needs) about virtual schooling with a certain amount of self-selection and self-direction. As someone with ADD tendencies (though not of the hyperactive variety), I know that the days I have to sit at work at my computer are TORTURE. I'm pretty much useless after lunch. Now, I can play computer GAMES for much longer, but not so much with the work.

Is it possible to cut back on his virtual classload and do more hands-on, exploratory learning for those subects? A few baking-soda-and-vinegar volcananos are good for the soul.

I guess it boils down to how dedicated you are to the online schooling, and your reasons for choosing it. It doesn't seem to be working, at least not as you've currently got it scheduled. It might work broken up into smaller chunks: do your math lesson, go train the dog (oh, and btw, here's a book on dog behavior I want you to read first so you have a good theoretical grounding), do your social studies, a half hour of free time, etc. It also might work, as I mentioned above, in smaller doses.

[LilMamiBella]

The thought of giving up the virtual school and having to find books/curriculum for him that will work sounds very stressful. Not to mention that times are a little tough for us. I think I will give the breaks a try and see if that will help any. I called today to cancel all of his activities. I feel really sad about it. I feel like I've tried everything. His behavior and grades aren't getting any better. He wants to constantly argue with me and I feel defeated.

[D_McG]

Are you opposed to traditional schooling? From what you've written it sounds like a much better fit.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by LilMamiBella

The thought of giving up the virtual school and having to find books/curriculum for him that will work sounds very stressful. Not to mention that times are a little tough for us. I think I will give the breaks a try and see if that will help any. I called today to cancel all of his activities. I feel really sad about it. I feel like I've tried everything. His behavior and grades aren't getting any better. He wants to constantly argue with me and I feel defeated.

His behavior and grades will probably deteriorate even more from resentment from having his activities taken away. He most likely needs those physical activities, the socialization, and the time away from family and out of the house. I really think this is going to be a huge mistake.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

His behavior and grades will probably deteriorate even more from resentment from having his activities taken away. He most likely needs those physical activities, the socialization, and the time away from family and out of the house. I really think this is going to be a huge mistake.

Agree. Respectfully, it is not his fault that he is unable to complete the schooling choices you have made on his behalf, you know? 5 hours per day in front of a computer is just ludicrous for an 11 year old. It's nothing he would face in a regular school. And with good reason! It's not age appropriate.