Discipline - What I did vs What I should have done - Looking for experience

[c'est moi]

so my daughter is my first and she is developing more and more of a toddler's spirit. i just had a little battle of the wills this morning with her and would like to know the best way to approach these things.

my daughter has a row in our bookshelf of all her books. at least 50+ books there. just for the sake of it, she decided to dump them all on the floor and refuses to pick them up. when i ask her to pick up, i help her with the task. she'll put one book on the shelf at a time, while i put up 5 or more. but she just refused to help put them up.

so here's what i did:
1. i told her that we can't do something new until we've picked up our books.
2. when her dad called from work, i told him about the event and he also told her that she needed to pick up her books before she could do something new.
3. when she asked to watch some elmo, i said we can't watch elmo until we finish with our books.
4. when she asked for a snack, same as above.
5. when she came for a hug, i sat her on my lap and talked about why we take care of our books and how it makes mommy feel when she doesn't listen.

the books are still on the floor . clearly my approach is not effective. so that's what i did. so what should i have done?

i mean, my long-term goal about caring about the books on the floor is two fold.
- one, i want her to understand the importance of taking care of her things. books are for reading and enjoying. not throwing on the floor and walking on.
- two, i want her to understand that in our house we clean up after ourselves. of course i'll help her, but i don't want her thinking that she makes a mess and mommy cleans it up.

my daughter is 20.5 months old. am i approaching this wrong? being unrealistic? being unfair? thanks in advance for your help. really, your answer will help address a lot of little battles that come up. refusing to get dressed and other stereotypical toddlerisms.

[mamazee]

(copied and pasted from other spot)

I think it was good that you got her to start helping you clean up, but I think it was unrealistic to think that she'd be able to follow through and do it all at 20 months. I have a little one just the same age, and we just picked up blocks. I would give her a block and have her put it in the bag, and we did it over and over again like that until her attention span had maxed out, and then I finished. At this point, it's about starting them on a habit, not getting them to do it. They aren't going to get the concept of cleaning up after themselves or taking care of things. I would also never tie food (snack) into discipline as it can create food issues. And I think you held onto it too long, like still going on about it when she wanted a hug. I would relax a bit, have her help you start out, like you did, and when she's reached her limit, just finish it yourself and feel good that you're starting the habit of cleaning with her. Her attention span will get longer as she gets older and, so long as you keep with the habit, she'll be able to do more and more. I can tell my 8-year-old to clean her room, and when I go to her room to check it's clean, but it's taken 8 years to get there.

[Llyra]

She may just be too young for this. I do encourage cleaning up at that age, and praise it, and thank them for it, but I don't start insisting on it until later. When I do insist, my favorite way of insisting is to carry the child to the area, hold the child's hand in my own, and put the child through the motion of picking up one or two books. Then I talk about how it's such a big help, etc., and praise a little, and then drop the issue and cheerfully finish the job myself.

I think that at this age, if you drag something out for a prolonged period of time, they just kinda forget the point. It's better to drop it, and try again another time. The more you turn something into a power struggle, the more likely they are to dig in their heels and decide to resist cleaning up on purpose-- if you drop it, and try again another day, then it's not been built up into such a huge issue.

[odenata]

Originally Posted by mamazee

(copied and pasted from other spot)

I think it was good that you got her to start helping you clean up, but I think it was unrealistic to think that she'd be able to follow through and do it all at 20 months. I have a little one just the same age, and we just picked up blocks. I would give her a block and have her put it in the bag, and we did it over and over again like that until her attention span had maxed out, and then I finished. At this point, it's about starting them on a habit, not getting them to do it. They aren't going to get the concept of cleaning up after themselves or taking care of things. I would also never tie food (snack) into discipline as it can create food issues. And I think you held onto it too long, like still going on about it when she wanted a hug. I would relax a bit, have her help you start out, like you did, and when she's reached her limit, just finish it yourself and feel good that you're starting the habit of cleaning with her. Her attention span will get longer as she gets older and, so long as you keep with the habit, she'll be able to do more and more. I can tell my 8-year-old to clean her room, and when I go to her room to check it's clean, but it's taken 8 years to get there.

I agree with all of this.

FWIW, I did things similar to what you're describing with my first. I think I had a fear that if I "let it go" she wouldn't learn to pick things up or would learn that she didn't have to listen to me or something like that. And I got frustrated a lot.

So, with hindsight, I say don't get frustrated and know that your dd will learn when she is developmentally ready, and until then, I think the approach outlined above is great.

[c'est moi]

i agree on it dragging out too long. i even was sick of spending our morning on a task that should have taken us less than 2 or 3 minutes to deal with.

i'm glad i at least did some things right. for example, i do physically guide her through the motions of picking up. while i am picking up book, i am also the one handing her the books to put in the shelf. normally she's doing less than 1% of the cleaning up, but that's all i really ask of her at this point.

she used to have no problem helping me clean up. it was part of our nightly routine. dinner, clean up, jammies, bed. she even happily sings the clean up song. it's just that recently she won't feel like it and therefore won't do it. like with a lot of other things....

[c'est moi]

oh and thank you for the warning about food issues!

[tallulahma]

i personally found/find that under 2 is way too early to really expect much in the form of help.

I mostly try to model what I would like, but leave the actual cleaning as my responsibility.

im pretty lax about these things, I would have left the books on the floor for a while, maybe sat down and read some, maybe put a few away and take a break from the space and eat or do another activity and then come back and clean them up myself.

My 2.5 year old loves to help clean up- but that is a very recent development and it came with little to no coaching on my part.

My 5 year old will pick up as she moves from activity to activity- but if she gets wild and makes a really big mess- she gets overwhelmed really quickly and has a hard time seeing a way to manage it.

my bff used to make a game of it with her 4 year old. i thought that was clever. she did "how many books can you pick up in five minutes" or "can you pick up just the red books" or "try to pick up 10 things, lets count"


but 2.5 mo is really young to help imho.

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by c'est moi

she used to have no problem helping me clean up. it was part of our nightly routine. dinner, clean up, jammies, bed. she even happily sings the clean up song. it's just that recently she won't feel like it and therefore won't do it. like with a lot of other things....

i just read this- it could be that she was seeing it as fun before and is now starting to see it as a chore.

once they start developing that strong sense of self? man, everything gets harder.

[nextcommercial]

You are being unrealistic. But she's being stubborn.

She CAN put them away. She just won't. Because she's gotten into a power struggle.

But, she doesn't understand the consequences that you are using. So, those won't work, and they just appear mean. You might also be using too many words to explain what you want.

I am all for having books out. But, maybe you can display them differntly for her. Baskets facing out would be good. Then, you can put five-ish books into each basket (facing cover out) so she can see the books, but she'll have only 15-20 books at her level. Then every two weeks, change her book selections. The books should be easy and inviting, but not overwhelming.

I understand that this isn't really what you are asking. You are asking what to do right now, for this particular issue. So, I think you should take all the books away for today. Put them all on the kitchen counter in "Toy timeout" and then tonight, you can put back some of them so she can make easier choices.

[Marsupialmom]

What you did was for an older child. Not saying it was bad but not age appropriate.

At 20 months, I would have talked to her, while putting up books about how special books are and how we need to treat them gentle. We don't leave books on the floor.

I would not rush to put them up fast. It might be appropriate to make her wait for something while you are picking up. "Oh, these books are on the floor. I don't want these special books to be messed up. I will get your snack after we get them put up."

She did something to get in a power struggle with you. You fell for it.

If she repeats book dumping behavior it might make more sence to move the books for a little while.

[c'est moi]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

You are being unrealistic. But she's being stubborn.

lol

i do think i am going to reorganize our shelves. she also has books in her room, but she doesn't have access to them because that's where non-board books go.

thanks for the ideas everyone!

[ssh]

Originally Posted by tallulahma

i just read this- it could be that she was seeing it as fun before and is now starting to see it as a chore.

once they start developing that strong sense of self? man, everything gets harder.

Add to that strong sense of self no impulse control at all and you have a 2 year old. It's normal for toddlers to listen pretty well and then stop as they approach 2. They start realizing they are actually separate from you and try to see how much influence they have over their self and own actions at that age. At this age redirection and distraction are about the only discipline that really works. It's good to ask her to help and verbally let her know your expectations because as her impulse control develops over the next year and a half or so she will know what those expectations are and begin to listen better. Consequences can't work with a child that isn't asking why yet and also with one that doesn't have impulse control. It will just make your DD's behavior worse and undermine the trust in your relationship with her.

[Violet2]

One book for every five you pick up is about right. At 20 months, any sign of helping is good. Even at 3 I'm still more efficient than DD and do most of the clean up and she's a pretty good helper.

Have you tried the clean up song? That seems to help.

Clean up, clean up
Everybody clean up

or

Toys/books away
Toys away
Time to put the toys away

Also, playing pretend.

Oh no! The books are lost! We have to help them find their home!

Where to they go? On momma's head? On your dupa (butt)? NO? Can YOU show me where the books go?
V

[c'est moi]

she can sing the clean up song by heart. helps that it's short and quick .

i left the books on the floor until after her nap. i didn't say anything to her about her "needing to pick them up." instead i kind of did what you all suggested and just excitedly said, "oh no! all your nice books are on the floor. i'm going to pick them up so they don't get broken." she came over and watched for awhile and then i handed her one and she put it on the shelf. i praisingly said, "nice placement!" and then of course she helped some more.

thanks ladies! i thought i really had her figured out. then she went and grew up/developed some more on me .