math resources for a VERY math resistant kid....

[canuckgal]

I really hesitate to post this on the unschooling board, well, maybe MDC is ok, but I wouldn't dare post this on the more "radical" boards I am on as I think I may get blasted for it.

I will be the first to admit I have not been very proactive in the math area...we have not gotten much beyond the "talk about it, they'll pick it up, bake cookies for fractions stage" in this house. I do not have very much of what would be considered "schooly" type math resources. I will also admit that I am a bit disillusioned right now that unschooling math would "work" but I think maybe I wasn't unschooling it in the first place or focused on fitting a "true definition" or whatever. OR maybe I was confused by the definiton in the first place.

My kids seem to be very right-brained-visual spatial whole to part learners. Ds seems to be able to do alot of mental math in his head and has way more number sense,, such as immediately figureing out that he is 3 years older than his 4 year old cousin. Dd at 10 would actually have alot of trouble knowing what to do to figure that out (add or count up) without prompting, and cannot even rattle off alot of addition facts yet. Yet, I have the Family Math books by Stenmark (older and younger versions), and she is more than adept at all the "non arithmetic" stuff in it we have tried, like the logical reasoning (she can even do the "bean salad" stuff...algebraic thinking). Yet, she struggles with stuff like the basic operations.

Things that I have breifly tried that do not work for us....workbook pages, and working on things in isolation. I have even looked at things online to have as a resource for when things came up such as Math on the Level (promoted on a Right brained Hs list I am on) or an abacus from Right Start, and just sitting in isolation to work on "x" with any of that would make her clam up and be very resistant, and she already cringes and shies away from anything that resembles "school" math or things that our more structured homeschooling friends are doing like Saxon. Even blocks like Math U See, if she was just working on problems with it from the book it would really turn her off.

She is really a strong in-context learner...learned to read by reading and being read to (separate phonics would not have worked), spelling by wanting to work on a story and has a photographic memory...as a math example, she would be the type of kid who is reading a computer game score and THEN I could whip out the place value blocks and illustrate it, and BANG it would stick, because it was following her interest and was something "real life". Practicing place value blocks because it is in the "lesson plan", not so much LOL.

Does anyone have any ideas? I am asking here as some groups I am on would I think chide me for even asking this. Any manipulatives? Any websites that are NOT thinly disguised worksheets? (She likes Cyberchase) I have shied away from step by step curriculum but would consider having it around as a resource or an illustration. I think it's the arithmetic I am worrying about, and don't know how to approach it in a way that is appealing to make sense. And I know math is so much more yet it is all I can remember from my school days. Arithmetic competency is not something I see addressed in the unschooling world on line as I have been exposed to. I am checking out the Living Math website, as she is very very literature oriented, but I worry that the mental math won't come for her with that approach but maybe I have to do more reading on it. Anyone use it as a resource?
O and she LOVES the computer, and likes hands on stuff.

I have cracked open Family Math again in the last few weeks (the 5-12 age) and have Peggy Kaye's Games for Math on order. So far she is "accepting" the Family Math. The Games book is one of the only ones I have seen that isn't looking too "workbooky" for her.

O and has anyone tried Cuisinaire rods with the activity Idea book (sold at FUN books)??? It's not the whole course with Annotation, but an activity book that comes with it.

I hope all THIS makes sense! I am typing tired here, and worried as well.

PS..lets not let this get into a discussion of the merits/pitfalls of unschooling. Thanks!

[moominmamma]

Have you tried traditional board games, card games and dice games? Yahtzee, Monopoly, dominoes, snakes & ladders, or strategy games like Settlers of Catan that involve two dice and probability. Shut the Box is an arithmetic based game, but it's fun and simple and involves strategy, so it's not drill dressed up in a pretty parcel. When snakes and ladders got boring for my kids we made upfancy rules like that you could move backwards to avoid a snake. We made our own board, laid out like a hundreds chart, with 10x10 squares, each row numbered left to right so that patterns were more evident. For instance, adding nine is up one row and one square left (i.e. Add ten and subtract one).

Anyway, I wonder if a daily routine of family games would be a nice way to get her exercising her math muscles. Real games seem less schoolyard and contrived than much of what passes for "math games," though I confess I haven't seen the Peggy Kaye book so it may not be like that.

Miranda

[yllek]

I will be very interested to see the other responses, because I also struggle with these issues. I have to agree with the pp - math games go a long way to getting a lot of math practice in. That said, my ds is only 6, so finding lots of games that match his current math level is tricky.

I guess I'll also share a bit of my own journey. Maybe something will be helpful to you. I am not an unschooler, but I do consider myself pretty child-led, relaxed, and eclectic in terms of the resources and approaches from which I draw inspiration. I have purchased many, MANY different math programs and resources, because I am quite math-challenged myself. I am very insecure about my ability to teach math, yet I really do value it highly.

Anyway, I currently own and have used Miquon, RightStart, Singapore Math, Math Mammoth, and have finished a year of Sadlier-Oxford as a school requirement. I also own a ton of math manipulatives (the RightStart manipulative kit, Unifix cubes, dominoes, geoboards, tangrams, base 10 sets, you name it....) The schooly stuff has not been super successful with ds, although he'll tolerate it. I'm starting to collect more games to play with ds, but he's not super-interested in a lot of board games. We do far better playing games with Uno cards, making our own math cards, doing some crafty activities involving math, etc.

What I've finally decided is that our math shortcomings are more a reflection of my unease with math than our choice of curriculum or math approach. I realized that I can get totally excited about literature, point out real-world connections to history, go completely nuts about science, create fun projects to do with writing, but I just don't get math. I have a hard time making math cool. So, instead of getting yet more math stuff for ds, I'm making an effort to re-educate myself in basic math. I've read Laping Ma's book Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics - very dense, but enlightening. I'm also reading Learning Mathematics and Elementary and Middle Schools, Peggy Kaye's Games for Math, and I'm learning some mental math tricks. The teacher-y books are very classroom-oriented, but it's been helpful for me to remember stuff about cognitive development - like the idea that kids younger than 7 or 8 are still in the concrete-operations stage. They need to experience numbers (not just the numerical symbols) in a visual or experiential way for a long time to really move beyond just an algorithmic understanding of math. Other books and approaches that have been helpful to me are anything from Marilyn Burns, and the free newsletters at the Math Their Way website.

I'm really sad that math is so neglected in our lives. I've got the solar system hanging in the living room, a Nile River growing wheat in our sunroom, dissected owl pellets in our dining room, stacks and stacks of books everywhere. Our math stuff is a neglected pile of manipulatives and workbooks and games stuffed in a corner. I'm really feeling like our current math dilemma is more my problem than ds'. If I knew how to bring math out into our daily lives, I would. (Please don't mention cooking. I've tried that, and now when the measuring cups come out, ds runs ).

Sorry to go on and on. Anyway, to respond to your post, I think having a published math program as a resource for YOU is a great, fantastic, superb idea! Like I said, I have four. I am also thinking about starting to do math notebooking with ds. Squidoo has a good lens on this, I think. Anyway, I normally abhor lapbooking/notebooking, but in this case, I think ds might really like creating his own math book instead of relying on the worksheets. For some of the mental math stuff, I also like math songs, Schoolhouse Rock, and using money. He dislikes counting, but will get into it if money is involved.

I wish you lots of luck with this. Know that there is another mama here who is right there with you.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

Have you tried traditional board games, card games and dice games? Yahtzee, Monopoly, dominoes, snakes & ladders, or strategy games like Settlers of Catan that involve two dice and probability. Shut the Box is an arithmetic based game, but it's fun and simple and involves strategy, so it's not drill dressed up in a pretty parcel. When snakes and ladders got boring for my kids we made upfancy rules like that you could move backwards to avoid a snake. We made our own board, laid out like a hundreds chart, with 10x10 squares, each row numbered left to right so that patterns were more evident. For instance, adding nine is up one row and one square left (i.e. Add ten and subtract one).

Anyway, I wonder if a daily routine of family games would be a nice way to get her exercising her math muscles. Real games seem less schoolyard and contrived than much of what passes for "math games," though I confess I haven't seen the Peggy Kaye book so it may not be like that.

So glad to see Miranda got here first with all that - I would have wanted to, but am pooped from a hard day - and as for Peggy Kaye's book, I've heard good things about it but didn't enjoy it for us. I'd stick to the other things suggested here first. - Lillian

[yippityskippity]

I like Real World Math, gr 1-2. She might not want to do the projects as prescribed, but it will give you some ideas on how to integrate math into everyday life.

We also *love* Afterwards: Folk Tales and Fairy Tales with Mathematics Ever After. Again, you might not use it "as-is" but use it to give yourself ideas of questions to ask and scenarios to propose that will get her thinking about the math she needs to learn. The idea of creating these "mathmatical ever-afters" would work with any type of book, not just these short fairy tales.

Is it possible there's something deeper going on with her? She sounds very bright, so this gap really sticks out to me. If I were in your shoes, I'd talk to someone about a possible learning disability. It seems strange to me that at 10 yo she hasn't naturally figured out early elementary math on her own. That, coupled with her extreme resistance to any formal math makes me wonder. I could be wrong (I hope I am), but I wouldn't wait any longer to rule out learning disabilities.

Best wishes

[paxye]

I know of a great resource but it is only available in french... You can use an online translator though and that would work... the whole program is free.

http://www.defimath.ca/lexique.html

it is all about logic and the way that kids learn... I have heard only good things about it...

[musingmama]

teaching textbooks

My 7 year old just started http://www.teachingtextbooks.com/
level 3 and he has really loved it. He likes being able to stop and start the lectures and problems as he feels like it and it allows him to be independent. Math is not my strong suit so I am thankful to have found something that really helps him "get it". He thinks it is fun!

[Starflower]

subbing

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by paxye

I know of a great resource but it is only available in french... You can use an online translator though and that would work... the whole program is free.

http://www.defimath.ca/lexique.html

it is all about logic and the way that kids learn... I have heard only good things about it...

Wow, thanks! I have heard of freres lyon and defimath sounds familiar, but I had no idea it was free. We need some stuff on paper to show the inspectrice when she comes and this looks like something my son would have some fun with.

[paxye]

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

Wow, thanks! I have heard of freres lyon and defimath sounds familiar, but I had no idea it was free. We need some stuff on paper to show the inspectrice when she comes and this looks like something my son would have some fun with.

The program that the brothers made is a great program... it is sad that the schools won't pick up on it because it is really focused on the child's way of learning. Not only is it free but they will respond promptly to any e-mails you send them and they will help you if you need it...

They also make the logic games Architecto, Meta-Forms, Equilibrio etc... My kids can spends hours playing those games...

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by paxye

The program that the brothers made is a great program... it is sad that the schools won't pick up on it because it is really focused on the child's way of learning. Not only is it free but they will respond promptly to any e-mails you send them and they will help you if you need it...

They also make the logic games Architecto, Meta-Forms, Equilibrio etc... My kids can spends hours playing those games...

Wow, I'm impressed! I will definitely be looking into those games, too.

[Lillian J]

I didn't think of this earlier, but FUN-Books math page has a lot of really interesting resources you might want to take a look through!

And here's a thread that has lots of idea: favorite math games and manipulatives. Lillian

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

I didn't think of this earlier, but FUN-Books math page has a lot of really interesting resources you might want to take a look through!

And here's a thread that has lots of idea: favorite math games and manipulatives. Lillian

Thanks Lillian...

I am a little embarrassed here that this is a link to a thread that *I* started

[canuckgal]

Thanks for the ideas...

I don't know if I should ask this here, or the unschooling board, or what...because I imagine most people here are very structured and sequential in their approach to math.

Is there anyone here who has used the "Living Math" approach, also reining in games from books, "setting" up opportunities like shopping and adding the total, etc.? It just seems so out of place with how I remember learning elementary math, but my dd obviously does NOT respond well to the rote flashcards and workbook methods I remember learning either. How do you find this approach for math overall especially as your kids get older. I am more concerned with the overall getting number sense, understanding why you are doing what you are doing in figuring out something "mathematical", etc.

Thanks

[kittie313]

Your dd sounds just like my oldest dd and I can't figure out how to help her with math. Subbing and will come back to read later when I've actually got time to really focus LOL

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by canuckgal

Thanks Lillian...

I am a little embarrassed here that this is a link to a thread that *I* started

That's great - I love it! Lillian

[SundayCrepes]

I haven't read the thread. These articles may give you some things to ponder.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...r-own-learning

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ath-in-schools

[yllek]

Originally Posted by canuckgal

Thanks for the ideas...

I don't know if I should ask this here, or the unschooling board, or what...because I imagine most people here are very structured and sequential in their approach to math.

Is there anyone here who has used the "Living Math" approach, also reining in games from books, "setting" up opportunities like shopping and adding the total, etc.? It just seems so out of place with how I remember learning elementary math, but my dd obviously does NOT respond well to the rote flashcards and workbook methods I remember learning either. How do you find this approach for math overall especially as your kids get older. I am more concerned with the overall getting number sense, understanding why you are doing what you are doing in figuring out something "mathematical", etc.

Thanks

This is us right now. After trying most of the popular homeschooling math programs (Right Start, Miquon, Math Mammoth, Singapore) and at least one classroom program (Sadlier-Oxford), I am dropping them all. Ds deflates whenever the math books come out, and I've finally figured out that it's not the specific program that's causing the discouragement, but the whole presentation of math as this abstract, numeral- and equation-based, worksheet drill thing. Five math programs later... I've finally realized, duh, my kid needs to do math in context.

I'm a little slow sometimes.

So now, we've taken a break from math while I regroup. My plans are to have something highly visual with some resources supporting the major math strands. Like, I have a big wall map so we can talk about geography. I want a big presentation board or bulletin board so we have something to look at while we talk about math. I'm going to include a kid-friendly calendar and clock, some money stuff, a hundreds board, some stuff about measurement, etc. I've got manipulatives galore (sometimes they are useful, but I'd like to move toward more real-life stuff). I also plan to do more math journaling. There's a blog called Jimmie's Collage that covers a lot of math notebooking. I've got books by Greg Tang, Anno, Marilyn Burns, Math Start, the Sir Cumference books, and some fun picture books about the history of math. I've also got resources for about a million math games. You have Family Math and Games for Math too, so you're set there for a while.

So my current plan is to include ds on all the scheduling that goes on for his activities. We'll post our plans on the calendar, so we'll have lots of reasons to talk about calendar math and time. Ds has an allowance, and he also has several toy purchases that he wants to make. I'm going to ask that he keep his wallet with him, and that he starts keeping track of what he buys and earns. He's really into science, so I think he'll be completely psyched to get his own kit to measure stuff. Beyond just rulers and tape measures, I'm thinking thermometers, spring scales, those beaker things, etc. We do lots of cooking around here so he's getting lots of exposure to the standard volume measures. On another board, a poster wrote about how she helped her dd make a numbers books with all her measurements, graphs of her favorite collections, measurements of her favorite pets, number of cookies she can eat in one sitting, etc. I've got lots of games that can cover the basic addition and subtraction facts. Even if I just play two-card War with ds and nothing else, he'll get tons of addition practice (he loves this game). He also likes those math worksheets that involve some kind of code-breaking. The only thing that is on our state's standards that is not covered by this plan is the concept of place value. I figure I can do a few "lessons" on place value if I need to after all this.

Especially at this age, I want ds to see math all around him. That is something that has been really lacking at our house. It doesn't help that I am so not mathematically-inclined. For my own re-education, I've been reading Laping Ma, Marilyn Burns, stuff at the Math Their Way site, the Developing Number Concepts series, and Teaching Student-Centered Mathematics. These more teacher-y texts are helpful for me, because it's difficult for me to remember what kids this age are really ready for conceptually. My ds is still so clearly in that concrete-operational stage, so all those 3+9=? questions are almost meaningless to him, even if he can pull out the right answer. I'd rather that he have many, many experiences with the actual presence of mathematics in our daily life. I'm a big fan of learning basic math facts cold, but I also believe that when the conceptual and experiential framework is well-established, the math facts are a very simple matter. Not so when the only way that students relate to math is the equivalent to us learning &+#=^*.

Okay, sorry for the tome. Math is a sore subject for me. I think I needed to do some thinking "out loud" here. Thanks for letting me spew.


-----
Doh! I just realized that I had already posted all this to this thread! Clearly, I need to just go and get some rest! Thinking about math does this to me. :P

[sweetmama3]

Originally Posted by canuckgal

Thanks for the ideas...

I don't know if I should ask this here, or the unschooling board, or what...because I imagine most people here are very structured and sequential in their approach to math.

Is there anyone here who has used the "Living Math" approach, also reining in games from books, "setting" up opportunities like shopping and adding the total, etc.? It just seems so out of place with how I remember learning elementary math, but my dd obviously does NOT respond well to the rote flashcards and workbook methods I remember learning either. How do you find this approach for math overall especially as your kids get older. I am more concerned with the overall getting number sense, understanding why you are doing what you are doing in figuring out something "mathematical", etc.

Thanks

This is us right now also, after reading Ruth Beechicks "The Three R's" just recently, it makes much sense to me to at least start out in the "living math"
mode. I actually even before reading that book didnt understand why teaching arithmetic out of a workbook made sense. For me, I would like DS's to be able to apply math to everyday life, have word problem in their head, and be able to figure it out with out having to do a paper and pencil problem.
I struggled with word problems my whole life, and I believe it was because I was never taught to apply math to every day scenarios.

I certainly think, especially when you get into more complicated math, workbooks have their place. It is hard to teach long division, algebra, and trig with just manipulatives.
But for elementary arithmetic, I think the manipulative/living math approach is great.

[lmonter]

Originally Posted by canuckgal

Is there anyone here who has used the "Living Math" approach, also reining in games from books, "setting" up opportunities like shopping and adding the total, etc.? It just seems so out of place with how I remember learning elementary math, but my dd obviously does NOT respond well to the rote flashcards and workbook methods I remember learning either. How do you find this approach for math overall especially as your kids get older. I am more concerned with the overall getting number sense, understanding why you are doing what you are doing in figuring out something "mathematical", etc.

I'm just officially starting to mess around with math for my 6yo (7 next week). He's one of those wiggleworms that always needs to be moving, is very hands on/in, and was doing crazy mechanical/engineering type things when he was little.

I got "Get a Grip" from the Rainbow Resource catalog (you could do your own with your own poundage of dried beans/lentils and a bunch of empty baby food jars/prescription bottles/whatever). Volumes, adding, fractions, etc. If numbers are too confusing, the way they have it is one jar is a heart, another is a star, another is a person. So the heart plus the star is the same as the person kind of thing.

Today my 6yo also made his very own calendar (so he'll leave mine alone!), which involved an awful lot of counting.

And then real life stuff like I have him count out items/produce for me (we need 6 bulbs of garlic, or 5 apples, 2 cans of kidney beans, whatever) when we're at the grocery store or farmer's market. Helping to measure ingredients for soup or cookies or spice blends sure doesn't hurt, either.

I've also got pattern blocks, a balance scale (4 triangles weigh the same as 2 squares!), a different kind of funky balance scale that's good for adding/subtracting, Monopoly Junior, that kind of thing. A lot of that I got from Rainbow Resource for not too much, actually. Worksheets make him twitch right now, so we don't do that. But he's catching on - he'll come up with something random and just shock us or blow us away with something we hadn't noticed since most things aren't new to us (if that makes sense). My warning though is that I'm still starting this crazy journey, and I have no idea what we'll be doing by springtime or even next year. Since I reserve the right to change my mind.

Oh, depending on age, I came across a math program called "Life of Fred" that intrigued me. Sounds like something I would've liked growing up since I've never really been into math, and even tonight figuring out goofy costs of things for grocery price comparing almost made my head hurt (only took like 10 calculations, but I didn't have a pencil and paper handy).