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The boy in the pretty purple and pink boots is mine :) - Page 4

post #61 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
We don't seem to assign the same sorts of meanings to words. I tend to use ones that appear in the dictionary (see, e.g. "effeminate" above). Abnormal, to me, means outside normal bounds in some way; and I would prefer that my son be within normal bounds when it comes to his gender role. No matter how much you disagree, that is not going to change.

The example of transgendered people is an interesting one. I would be sad if my son were to have such a disorder, though of course I would love him. If there were anything I could do to encourage him in normal behavior and self-image, I'd do that.
Even if it means accepting him as your daughter?

What is normal bounds? And why do you get to decide what those bounds are?
post #62 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
Even if it means accepting him as your daughter?

What is normal bounds? And why do you get to decide what those bounds are?
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
post #63 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
In what way is a transgendered person disabled?

And if you believe you can keep your son from being transgendered by disallowing girly clothes and behavior, you are vastly over-estimating your power. What you can do, sadly, were your son transgendered, is drive him to depression or even suicide.

The suicide rate among LGBT teens is a monstrous tragedy, and, sadly, it is fed by people who believe that with a little more outside pressure LGBT people would become your version of "normal".

LGBT people are born, not made, and whether or not you consider them "normal" is irrelevant, but your belief that it is better for someone to be "normal" than to be the way God made them is sad. You're shutting your eyes to the beauty that is our varied community.

FYI, I have a family member who is disabled, and your blithely dismissing him as "abnormal" deeply deeply offends me. (Mods: I am trying not to be a UA, please let me know if I need to edit this).
post #64 of 167
I, too, encourage my children to live within relatively normal gender constraints because I don't want them to be picked on. But if they were in love with something like the boots, I would most likely let my son get them (or wear his big sisters at the least). But it all makes me kind of sad. It's depressing that at my daughters birthday she got 4 barbies, but it's hard to find boys clothing without sports balls or trucks on it. I know it's just toys and cars, but it does beget a further problem, and one that runs deeply. Look at the gender stereotypes that drive little girls away from science and math and boys away from family sciences, etc. Yes, I want me kids to live within the spectrum of "normal" because it's normal for them, but I don't always agree with what is considered to be normal (esp. if you live in a fly-over state, which thankfully I don't, lol).

My son loves to play dress-up in cinderella dresses and tutu's and high heels, and I have never told him it was weird. My DH has recently started telling him that he's not allowed to wear the dress-up outfits to preschool (FWIW, my daughter isn't allowed to, either) and it kind of makes me sad that someday soon he will be living in the world and knowing that he can't twirl in a tutu if he wanted to.

Sorry for the ramble, but I can actually relate to both sides in this argument.
post #65 of 167
Iucounu, as your posts indicate your well-spoken nature, I'm sure you know the difference between the denotative and connotative meanings of words, but I'll nonetheless review.

All words have both types of meaning; the denotative is, of course, the dictionary definition of the word. This is the meaning of the word you cite when providing the reference.com definition of "abnormal". Certainly, denotatively, the word abnormal simply means "outside the norm."

Many words, especially those you enjoy using frequently in posts, also have a connotative meaning. Words connote images, stereotypes, ideologies, etc. that are brought to mind when a word is used. This, of course, is the foundation of diction. For many Americans, for example, the word "freedom" means (denotation) to be outside the bounds of tyranny, but the connotation can be quite different for different people, and call up a variety of mental images.

Words that you have used with significant frequency in your posts include "effeminate," "abnormal" and "disorder." Certainly, denotatively, these words mean exactly what you use them for. Problematically, these words also have strong connotations, most of which are negative. As a result, when you use these words as you have, you risk offending your audience.

Because of the reality of the connotative meanings of words, words must be chosen with care. No one wants to be called "abnormal" and no one wants to have a "disorder." When you label people who live within the lifestyle they've chosen with words that have such negative connotations, you sound condescending and patronizing.

I was going to cite the dictionary definition of several words used above, but decided that you are well able to look them up yourself. Furthermore, I almost feel that this post is essentially pointless, since I suspect that you did, indeed, use the above words precisely because they have negative connotations.
post #66 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
There is no such thing as truth, and even you "non-relativist" views exist within the relative.

Yes, I'm afraid all things exist on a spectrum. There is no such concrete thing as "normal" because every individual will have their own interpretation of what "normal" is based on their life experience. For some reason your life experience has trained you to have a very closed mind towards cultural phenomenon that do not fit within the conservative cultural gender perimeters you are most comfortable with. It is your right to have these perimeters, but you are setting yourself up for a mighty fall when it comes to exposing your son to the rest of the world...most of which does not agree with you. I think what people are trying to point out to you here is that you are doing your son a disservice by not allowing him to understand that gender roles are fluid. It makes me very sad (as I am also the mother of a son) to think that your son might try to take these antiquated views you have "steered" him into conforming with and mock others who choose to express themselves otherwise. Because as Musician Dad stated, its always the oppressed who seek to oppress others.

And you are perfectly correct in stating that normal has no meaning whatsoever...except the meaning we give to it. So in my part of the world your worldview is really, really not normal. Ironic, eh?

And calling transexualism a sad disorder is quite offensive.

Yuck, yick, ew...boy this whole thing really makes me mad!
post #67 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
So if your son was transgendered, you would deny that he knows who he is and insist that he is male regardless? I guess all I can do is pray that he's a perfectly normal, perfectly masculine boy because I've seen first hand what that mindset does to a transgendered youth and no one deserves that kind of suffering.

I don't think everything is normal. I don't think an adult who abuses or sexual assaults someone is normal. I don't think that serial killers are normal. I don't think that people who get pleasure out of making an animal suffer is normal.

I also don't think that a 14 year old boy who is suicidal, dealing with alcoholism and self-hatred is normal. A 14 year old boy who thinks his very existence is a mistake is not normal. Well you know what? I know that boy. His parents have the very same view that you are expressing here, and all it has done to him is make his life a living hell because no matter how hard he tries to be what they want him to be it's never going to happen because of who he is. And if you can't understand that connection, I hope to god that your child is never placed in a position where you have to make that connection.
post #68 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
Gender roles are what they are; they're not going away; and I'd rather that my son fit into a normal gender role than an abnormal one.
But Iucounu...gender identity is something genetic, established before birth. And gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation, althoough that is established before birth also.

Also I get the impression you have the term 'normal' and the term 'average' confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.

What I desire is for my son to feel accepted and loved for who he is, however that manifests within himself.

I have a dear friend who is male but dresses as a female and prefers to identify as female. I have known her since she was male, married, with children. She is a MILLION times happier now than she was then. Isn't that what matters most? Granted that's an extreme example,, but why oh why does it matter if a boy wants a pink pair of boots over red? The AVERAGE boy isn't going to grow up with gender confusion from those sorts of choices, and any child who DOES grow up gender confused....it sure as hell isn't from being allowed (or not) to choose 'socially appropriate colors of clothing'.

I appreciate how clearly you're articulating your points, I'm just trying to understand the logic behind it.
post #69 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldamomma View Post
In what way is a transgendered person disabled?
https://health.google.com/health/ref...ntity+disorder
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001527.htm

Quote:
And if you believe you can keep your son from being transgendered by disallowing girly clothes and behavior, you are vastly over-estimating your power.
Your opinion is noted. I believe that, especially since a good deal of gender is social/psychological in nature instead of being based purely on biology, I have a good deal of influence as a parent, although I am just one part of my child's environment.

Quote:
The suicide rate among LGBT teens is a monstrous tragedy, and, sadly, it is fed by people who believe that with a little more outside pressure LGBT people would become your version of "normal".
That won't result from the sort of gentle encouragement and coaching I am talking about here, which actually really has to do with modes of dress.

When it comes to homosexuality, I have taught my five-year-old that it is unusual, that usually women grow up to be in relationships with men and vice versa, but that sometimes people choose differently. A good friend of mine has a niece who is a married lesbian, and I had no qualms about letting my son meet and interact with them. Afterward he had a few curious questions about why a woman was married to a woman, and we had a low-key discussion about it.

Quote:
FYI, I have a family member who is disabled, and your blithely dismissing him as "abnormal" deeply deeply offends me. (Mods: I am trying not to be a UA, please let me know if I need to edit this).
I'm sorry you were offended. The word "abnormal" should be read to mean "outside the norm", and especially since we're talking about gender norms here, I don't think it's out of place. Also, I didn't "blithely dismiss" anyone. Is it out of bounds to not want my son to be disabled? I want good things for him. I also have a family member who is disabled; if I could, I'd do away with his disability in an instant.
post #70 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovnMama View Post
Iucounu, as your posts indicate
We were discussing gender norms. I think the word "abnormal" is not offensive in this context. A truly offensive choice of word, for example, would be something like "deviant" to describe gender or sexuality, which I would not use.

"Effeminate" is by far the most apt word to describe, well, effeminacy-- can you find another word that means the same thing? I just checked the thesaurus, and I can't. "Womanish" doesn't get it, because a little boy can't properly be womanish, although he can be girlish (but note that effeminacy is more general in regard to age, and here we are also talking about how adults dress). You are applying your own feelings based on previous uses of this term that you've disliked in other contexts, perhaps, instead of picking up an intentional connotation based on my choice of this word over another. MusicianDad has posted here that in his view, as an openly gay man, there is nothing wrong with effeminacy, without noting any problem with my use of this most appropriate term, so I at least don't think I offended him by using it.

The word "disorder" is not chosen for an offensive connotation. I am open and honest about the fact that I do consider gender identity disorder to be a disorder, although I understand some transgendered people and others would disagree. It's a well-recognized disorder that often leads to what I consider to be genital mutilation, and if I could save my children from it, I would. (Although, of course, once a person reaches the age of majority what they do with their body is completely their own business, and I would of course love my children wholeheartedly no matter what happened to them.)

Really, I think that you simply don't like the substance of what I've written. I can't find any problem with my choice of words, keeping in mind that it can be tough to choose a word that is incapable of being taken the wrong way.

But I'm sorry if you were offended. If my repetition seemed to hint at an intentional offensive connotation, please understand that I sometimes don't use artful variation much when posting in the context of a discussion like this. I'm more concerned with structuring my thoughts, and especially on a topic with not a lot of synonyms for some of the words, I will often just take a word and run with it.
post #71 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoretica View Post
But Iucounu...gender identity is something genetic, established before birth.
No, I think it is clearly not, or at least not completely. My understanding is that gender has both biological and social/psychological components.

Quote:
why oh why does it matter if a boy wants a pink pair of boots over red? The AVERAGE boy isn't going to grow up with gender confusion from those sorts of choices
I'd say you're right, at least with respect to a single choice. By the same token, when I gently encourage my son to pick a blue pair of boots over pink ones on a particular day, I am not having a powerful harmful effect either-- though such effects could be cumulative, and though it's been suggested in this thread that I am going down a path ending in suicide or possibly psychopathic behavior. I do see some value in fitting in with well-accepted modes of dress, which some here have parlayed into a desire on my part to force my son to be straight if he turns out to be gay, a male if he is a female-trapped-in-a-male's-body, etc.

Quote:
any child who DOES grow up gender confused....it sure as hell isn't from being allowed (or not) to choose 'socially appropriate colors of clothing'.
Since gender identity is in large part learned, I think you can confuse a kid to some extent, although one particular clothing choice would usually be just a tiny part of it at most.
post #72 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
So if your son was transgendered, you would deny that he knows who he is and insist that he is male regardless?
If my son showed indications of being transgendered, I'd begin by scheduling a doctor's appointment, and take it from there. I would do what I could to help him out of it (which might be nothing in the end, I suppose-- we need not argue about it here), because I want him to lead a happy, healthy life. I don't think that gender confusion leading to a feeling that one is actually of the opposite sex, and further down the road possibly leading to surgery, is healthy, and I would prefer that my son not suffer from such things.

Similarly to my way of thinking, if my son had body dysmorphic disorder, I would disagree with his self-assessment and most likely seek help. Here's a related extreme disorder, for which I would certainly seek treatment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_In...ntity_Disorder

Quote:
{snip} I hope to god that your child is never placed in a position where you have to make that connection.
My son is doing fine so far, and no matter what, he will always be loved and understand that he is loved.
post #73 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
If my son showed indications of being transgendered, I'd begin by scheduling a doctor's appointment, and take it from there. I would do what I could to help him out of it (which might be nothing in the end, I suppose-- we need not argue about it here), because I want him to lead a happy, healthy life. I don't think that gender confusion leading to a feeling that one is actually of the opposite sex, and further down the road possibly leading to surgery, is healthy, and I would prefer that my son not suffer from such things.

My son is doing fine so far, and no matter what, he will always be loved and understand that he is loved.
Iucounu have you ever met a transgender person? The way you describe/discuss this topic makes me think you have not. They are not a different species, they can be the most normal average people you meet. For example i know one woman (born a male) who is WAY more conservatively feminine than i am, she wears dresses, make-up, bakes, etc. etc. I'm rather masculine as women go.

I know several people who are transgender, and all of them live happy healthy lives (i.e. they are happy and healthy). Of course the mother of one of them thinks her "son" is a terribly mentally ill person who, despite "his" loving family situation (he and his husband have 2 very loved kids), good and very enjoyed job (as an artist), MUST be actually miserable and unhealthy because, hello, he had a penis when he was born and now he wears dresses. Do you care if YOUR SON is happy with how he is, or if YOU are happy with how he is? What about if you are happy because he wears the clothes and does the things you approve of but these things make him unhappy? Is that ok? Is it ok for him to LOOK normal but FEEL miserable? What if he said to you "mom, i'm so unhappy following all these "rules" about being a boy, these pink sneakers would make me feel so happy" - does that matter? Is it ok for him to be unhappy but in red sneakers? Or is he allowed to be happy even if you don't like what makes him happy? Do you really think you can TELL him what will make him happy? I can't convince my DD she likes tomatoes, think i could make her lesbian/hetero/transgender/a different race by telling her she was? I mean i guess if i held her down i could make her EAT tomatoes, but i'm pretty sure i couldn't make her LIKE them. Does DOING the normal thing make you ACTUALLY normal, or make you LOOK normal. Is looking normal more important than feeling happy? That is such a desolate and shallow view, i can't imagine raising my kids to believe that.

I don't actually see where anyone encouraged their son to wear pink. The OP's SON wanted pink boots. She offered him an (arguably more "masculine") alternative. He declined it in a somewhat sneaky way (saying boots that were too big were too tight) so he COULD have the pink boots. How is she "encouraging abnormal gender roles" there? Should she have refused the pink boots? Because that is not encouraging, that is dictating.

Every parent must do what they believe is right. I personally (and i see from this thread i am not alone) think my job is to help my kids DISCOVER who they are, not tell them who i think they should be based on my own insecurities.
post #74 of 167
I don't see a problem with the boots, if he is happy with them. I certainly don't see it as an indication of a possible gender confusion or sexual role issue.

Pink and purple are COLORS! up until this last century, it was perfectly normal for men (wealthy men, anyway) to dress in them.

My 11 y/o ds has chosen to have his birthday cake covered in purple frosting with pink trim. For the second year in a row. and wants purple flowery plates and pink napkins. I think he chooses those colors for the "shock" value, among the other boys his age.

And fwiw - he is "all boy". He plays rough sports, has a "girl friend", farts and burps and does all the stupid things boys do at that age. His favorite pasttime is running around shooting other boys with a Nerf gun, or banging at each other with sticks. He is also sensitive, creative, thoughtful and caring. And thoughtless, forgetful and incredibly selfish. In short - perfectly normal.

eta: I have a perfectly lovely photo of him when he was 3 years old, in a pink ballerina outfit, complete with tiara. Framed and next to the photo of him dressed in a soldier outfit, complete with gun and face paint. He is not any one of these people - he is all of them combined.
post #75 of 167
There's nothing here to indicate that being transgendered is disabling. It doesn't make a person unable to care for themselves or unable to hold a job. Whether or not being transgendered is something that ought to be "fixed" by the medical community is entirely separate from the question of disability. Many transgendered people have full and happy lives.


Quote:
I'm sorry you were offended. The word "abnormal" should be read to mean "outside the norm", and especially since we're talking about gender norms here, I don't think it's out of place. Also, I didn't "blithely dismiss" anyone. Is it out of bounds to not want my son to be disabled? I want good things for him. I also have a family member who is disabled; if I could, I'd do away with his disability in an instant.
We all are outside the norm in some way. Blue eyes are roughly as common as homosexuality in humans, and blonde hair is much much less common. Would you encourage your son to dye his hair if it were blond?

Abnormal means "deviant" and if you actually want to talk to people without offending them, it's not an appropriate term to use. What rubs me the wrong way about the way you talk about people who are "outside the norm" is that it sounds like you're about to make a pitch for eugenics.

If I could I would make my disabled family member's health problems disappear, but I don't have a magic wand. What doesn't take a magic wand is to work against the discrimination disabled people face all the time. And the blind worship of "normal" hurts disabled people because often they cannot fit in the tiny box of behaviors you might consider "normal", but are still perfectly capable of being valuable, productive members of society.
post #76 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
If my son showed indications of being transgendered, I'd begin by scheduling a doctor's appointment, and take it from there. I would do what I could to help him out of it (which might be nothing in the end, I suppose-- we need not argue about it here), because I want him to lead a happy, healthy life. I don't think that gender confusion leading to a feeling that one is actually of the opposite sex, and further down the road possibly leading to surgery, is healthy, and I would prefer that my son not suffer from such things.

Similarly to my way of thinking, if my son had body dysmorphic disorder, I would disagree with his self-assessment and most likely seek help. Here's a related extreme disorder, for which I would certainly seek treatment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_In...ntity_Disorder



My son is doing fine so far, and no matter what, he will always be loved and understand that he is loved.
My experience in life tells me that a transgendered person who is comfortable, and who accepts who they are as who they are and not some disability or disorder and very happy and healthy individuals.

Slowly but surely that 14 I mentioned is becoming the kind of person he deserves to be. Someone who sees that the non-binary gender identity he has is not something that needs to be fixed.

As for disabilities. I am not abnormal. I am legally blind, but that doesn't make me abnormal. You say you have a family member who is disabled and you would do away with that disability if you could. I say that is a very arrogant position to hold. Does your family member want his disability done away with? I sure as hell don't want mine gone. I like being legally blind. It may not be optimum, but it's not only who I am, but who I have been from birth and the idea of me having good vision is a little frightening. The idea that I could be sitting on the bus and be able to judge someone sitting across from me without even talking to them, even subconsciously, is probably the most frightening thing about it. A few times I've had people tell me "I wish I could help you see!" I always respond with "I don't".

And you know what, every single disabled person I have met, has reached a point in their life where they don't want to be fixed either.
post #77 of 167
Quote:
And if you believe you can keep your son from being transgendered by disallowing girly clothes and behavior, you are vastly over-estimating your power. What you can do, sadly, were your son transgendered, is drive him to depression or even suicide.

The suicide rate among LGBT teens is a monstrous tragedy, and, sadly, it is fed by people who believe that with a little more outside pressure LGBT people would become your version of "normal".

LGBT people are born, not made, and whether or not you consider them "normal" is irrelevant, but your belief that it is better for someone to be "normal" than to be the way God made them is sad. You're shutting your eyes to the beauty that is our varied community.
post #78 of 167
Equating a pink shirt with a .357 Magnum or a 10" Bowie knife? Ridiculous.

And not every disabled person wants to be "fixed." Some are quite happy with the way they are and wouldn't change a thing.

Can we touch on how it's perfectly acceptable and "adorable" for little girls to wear "tomboy" type clothes? Girls can wear clothes in any color - blue, brown, green, black, yellow, orange, purple, pink, red, you name it - and it's completely acceptable. It's just gosh darn precious when little Mary dresses up in her daddy's suit and tie. But, if little Tommy comes out wearing a pair of his mommy's heels then it's panic time - oh no, he'll turn into a queer and wouldn't THAT be awful? Bullcrap.

AFM - my 4yo DS loves pink and purple. Why not? They are pretty colors and men are definitely able to enjoy pretty things. He has quite a few shirts that are purple and one button down shirt that's pink. I'd dare anyone to tell me to my face that I'm leading my son down a path to some "disability" because I let him dabble with colors. I thank God everyday that I had parents that allowed me and my brothers to express ourselves as we saw fit. I was made fun of A LOT growing up. I was made fun of if I wore a dress or if I wore more "boyish" clothes. It didn't matter what I wore. But, I had enough self-confidence to be who I was and to express myself as I saw fit, mainly because I had such a supportive family behind me. The same went for my brothers. One is a drummer and has been since he was 6, very rock 'n' roll and experimented with all sorts of hair colors and clothing styles growing up (this was in the 70's and 80's, so you can imagine the fashion ). The other (in Heaven now) was a complete hippie - he looked Jesus in tie-dye - long hair, beard, sandals, jeans and tie-dye shirts. Our parents allowed us to express ourselves and it truly gave us strength and confidence. I'm going the same route with my son. He went through a phase where he carried a purse. Because he's gay? No, because mommy carries one and it was damn handy for him to carry his cars and his coloring books in. He has dolls? Because he's gay? No, because nature/God/whatever you believe gave children an amazing imagination. He's very nurturing with his dolls for the most part. Does that mean he's gay? No, he's acting like his daddy who is very gentle and nurturing. He likes purple, pink and glittery things. Because he's gay? No, because he gets enough blue, green and brown as it is and purple, pink and glitter are way more fun. The point is, you cannot force someone to be gay or straight. They are born that way. No amount of dressing up or dressing down will change that. What matters is how you treat them and whether or not you support them enough through life to give them to confidence to be who they truly are.

One of my childhood friends came from a deeply conservative home. He was definitely dressed masculine, was not allowed to play with his sisters' dolls, played with trucks, cars and planes and played baseball and football. He was quite a football legend in high school. He was very macho and the girls were IN LOVE with him. And he nearly killed himself. Why? Because he was gay. And he was very aware from early on that his parents were forcing him to do things that didn't feel right to him. When he was in his early teens and mom and dad began to expect that he was "not normal" and they took him to doctors, just as a previous poster suggested. His teens years were full of depression and anxiety (which are true mental disorders, unlike being LGBT). He put on a show for his parents, but inside he was dying. Thankfully, his attempt at suicide was thwarted. He nows lives happily as an "out and proud" gay man, in a committed relationship of almost 10 years and he wears a lot of blue.

Conversely, another boy I grew up with was very "effeminate" and everyone pegged him to be gay. His parents were open-minded and it wouldn't have mattered to them. Now? He's quite straight.

And there's my husband. He wears purple a lot. Part of it is because he looks damn good in purple. The other part is because he's a Viking's fan and that's their color (and no one calls them "f*gs because of their uniforms). He also loves kittens and flowers. I'll be sure to let him know that he's probably secretly gay and that he has a disorder.

I'm just glad that the tides are turning and more people are becoming open-minded. I believe we still have a way to go as far as accepting people, but I see a lot more tolerance in the future. Personally, I don't think boys wearing pink and purple will be much of an issue in the coming years as more people are learning to accept that it's perfectly fine.


You cannot judge a book by it's cover. And no matter how many times you try to remove, change or hide the cover, you will never be able to change the story inside.

P.S. MusicianDad - you rock!
post #79 of 167
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Originally Posted by MrsMike View Post
P.S. MusicianDad - you rock!
Thanks.
post #80 of 167
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
and I would prefer that my son not suffer from such things.
Iucounu first i laud you that you continue to post even when you have the unpopular view.

my question to you is how do you prefer to live your life? based on your own decisions? obviously that is very important to you. if that is so why cant you let others have them. esp your son.

i would please entreat you to get involved with the LGBT community if there is one where you are. just go and join them and see who they are.

do you know that its the unaccepting parents who are causing the most pain to the gay lesbian community. that even though they have happy successful life that something is still missing without the family they were born into.

this is not a 'small' thing. this is still huge. and people are still losing their life over this. or more important something that happens all the time - getting beat up. many even commit suicide because they cannot imagine not having family support. because they cannot handle family rejection.

why do you have such strong views? religious reasons? or other? but why?
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