Terrible newborn latch- update p 2

[bri276]

DD2 was born yesterday. I keep trying to get her to open her mouth wide enough to take the nipple in. It's rare for her to get it open wide, and when she does, she immediately clamps down the second the nipple enters and then clamps down on the tip of the nipple repeatedly. Saw an LC today and no help, she basically told me to stop when she does that and just pump and finger feed. I need her to LATCH!

I ep'ed 21 months for DD, my milk is coming in okay, I've given her a few CCs via syringe just to make sure she gets something, but she's not getting enough and my milk won't keep coming in unless I pump. She's eager to nurse but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it in a way that isn't totally excruciating. My nipples are red and painful now and when I unlatch her you can see they're angled, sloped downward, from the way she's been sucking.

help?

[GoBecGo]

Are you shaping the areola for her? I have massive breasts and flat nipples and i have to kind of squash my areola area into a flatter shape (think burger from the side) and sort of fold it in over the lower lip (pulling the mouth open wider as i do so). It's hard to describe, i wish i'd filmed it when DD was smaller - does it make any sense?

[bri276]

I know what you're saying. I have tried to physically put it in there in the right position ( but everything I read says "put the baby to the breast not the other way around?) but she slides it forward so she can clamp with her gums again. She just pushes it forward with her tongue. She has great suction but refuses to bring it in far enough to really get some milk flowing, yk?

[GoBecGo]

I do, and in my favour, my kids had good intentions to latch deep, but my breasts were hard to grab, whereas it sounds like your little girl is struggling to hold on well. I think you need a new LC and fast, continue with the syringe, pump if it will keep your supply.

Nipple shields - would that help stop her pushing your nipple out and protect it from the clamping a little? i know they aren't generally recommended but i think in your case they might be of use.

FWIW everything *I* read said to bring the baby to the breast and not vice versa and to those people i thrust my flat-nippled 36J's and say "ok, YOU do it!" because really, without that help no normal newborn can do anything with it, it's too big, round and heavy.

[GoBecGo]

Another thought - if you squirt milk into her open mouth does she open wider? That's something my DD1 would respond well to if she was being lazy... Also, any chance you can get her some cranial osteopathy? It's possible she has jaw/head pain from the birth that is stopping her opening wider. How was the birth?

Hang in there. I have to go to bed (it's after midnight here in the UK) but i'm sending you good vibes mama.

[bri276]

thanks! and I agree, sometimes rules were made to be broken, if that's what actually WORKS. I just tried cramming some nipple further into her mouth than it usually gets while she was crying and it did seem to help a bit, but at this point, they hurt so much it's hard to tell whether she's any better or not.

Birth itself was pretty good from her point of view I think. Unmedicated, 20 minutes of pushing, her head is so nicely shaped two different nurses asked me if she was a c-section. But directly after birth they did a ton of suctioning because she was super gurgly and juicy. She was latching better directly after that than she was at any other point, though!

[jessica_s]

Have you tried laying her on top of you (your laying down or reclined) and having her latch herself on? ETA: You can help, but she's more in control this way, and sometimes that's what it takes.
Sometimes this can help because you don't have to hold anything and gravity can help get more breast in there. It's called laid back nursing or biological nursing if you want to see some photos http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/

Try another LC or call a LLL Leader, not everyone is created equal! Sounds like you guys need some more hands on help and support.

[PatioGardener]

nak
this position may help http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html

[Lit Chick]

Find a new LC.
Both my DSs did that to me too. It takes a while to get the hang of latching them. Basically, with DS1 my MW (aslo an LC) had me do the burger-squish, but I also had to roll it into his mouth, and use my lower squishing finger to pry his mouth open. I flattened with my thumb on top and the rest of my hand under, aimed my nip at his nose, and rolled it into his mouth bottom first - used my index finger to flip his lower lip open. It's hard to describe in text, but a good LC will know how to do it.

Dr. Sears knows what I'm talking about - about 1/2 down on the page - How to Get Baby to Open Her Mouth Wide It's true though you may need someone to help at first.

ETA - have to run, but Goggle Asymmetric Latch Technique, pretty sure that's the official name of what I do.

[Ambyrkatt]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Are you shaping the areola for her? I have massive breasts and flat nipples and i have to kind of squash my areola area into a flatter shape (think burger from the side) and sort of fold it in over the lower lip (pulling the mouth open wider as i do so). It's hard to describe, i wish i'd filmed it when DD was smaller - does it make any sense?

This is exactly how I was told to get DS to latch on. My LC had larger breasts and told me that I should "make a nipple sandwich" out of my boob. In other words, squash it and hold it like it's a sandwich and pop it into his mouth. After he latched, I was able to move my hand a little. I still had to hold the boob the entire time he was latched on, but this latching technique really worked for us, too.

Don't worry about whether you are bringing baby to boob or baby is getting there on her own. As long as she is there and latched on, you have progress. In a few weeks, you will both be old pros!

[bri276]

thanks, I am reading everything and trying my best to apply it.

One problem we have is that even if I forcibly get the nipple in there as far as I can (which still isn't far, she just hates opening wide and her jaw is strong, even my finger has trouble getting/keeping it open) she just sort of spits the nipple forward after. It's like she wants to have it only at the front of her mouth no matter what. I am doing ALL the tricks I've read about this problem and it's still extremely painful the whole time we're nursing and only the very front portion is in and she's hungry and pumping isn't working at all (I don't know if my pump is broken or my nipples are so swollen/milk isn't coming in that I'm not responding to it).

I'm afraid I'm going to hurt her with all the forced pressure to open/keep her lower jaw opening, too...

[bri276]

Originally Posted by jessica_s

Have you tried laying her on top of you (your laying down or reclined) and having her latch herself on? ETA: You can help, but she's more in control this way, and sometimes that's what it takes.
Sometimes this can help because you don't have to hold anything and gravity can help get more breast in there. It's called laid back nursing or biological nursing if you want to see some photos http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/

Try another LC or call a LLL Leader, not everyone is created equal! Sounds like you guys need some more hands on help and support.

This made her really mad for some reason!

I'm going to call LLL in the morning for sure.

[Lit Chick]

DS2 spit out my nipple too, and at first I allowed it because I wanted him to get some milk even if it meant I was hurt. But my MW scolded me, and reminded me that babies learn fast - and if I let him get away with it then that's what he'd learn. So, when he spit, I un-latched and we had to start over. She was right... he learned fast that he had to nurse nice to get milk.

Glad to hear you're calling LLL - they really will be able to help. Hands-on is so much better than reading. Hang in there!

[nicky85]

Our chiropractor told us about this. Birth is really hard, even unmedicated, gentle births are still rough on a baby's body and sometimes the jaw can get pushed out of alignment. When this happens, the baby isn't able to open up all the way and get the whole nipple in the mouth for a good latch. A pediatric chiropractor who does cranial work can adjust the jaw and help the baby be able to open all the way. I've heard that osteopaths can also perform jaw adjustments too. Infant adjustments are very safe and gentle. Try going to www.icpa4kids.org to search for a pediatric chiropractor near you. Good luck!

[jessica_s]

I was just going to say this below when I read she got even more upset when you tried to lay her down to nurse. If she's resisting even things like that there might be something up and an adjustment or cranial work can do wonders. Hope you got to talk to someone this morning, if you had to leave a message just call down the list of people till you get someone!

Originally Posted by nicky85

Our chiropractor told us about this. Birth is really hard, even unmedicated, gentle births are still rough on a baby's body and sometimes the jaw can get pushed out of alignment. When this happens, the baby isn't able to open up all the way and get the whole nipple in the mouth for a good latch. A pediatric chiropractor who does cranial work can adjust the jaw and help the baby be able to open all the way. I've heard that osteopaths can also perform jaw adjustments too. Infant adjustments are very safe and gentle. Try going to www.icpa4kids.org to search for a pediatric chiropractor near you. Good luck!

[~Katie~]

I see that you mentioned lots of suction and I believe there is a correlation between that and difficulty with latch. I think whatever happens during the suctioning has to heal, and sometimes that can be a bit traumatic when it comes to latching and opening wide.

I would do what others said and contact LLL and a new LC, and perhaps seek a chiropractor. I would also continue to pump and syringe or cup feed, or perhaps try the Haberman feeder, and continue with encouraging her to latch but try not to frustrate her or you. Of the babies I know who had this same difficulty, all were able to latch properly within a few weeks with encouragement

[bri276]

Thanks again! I did talk to an LLL leader and am going to a meeting on Friday. We're having a *bit* better luck with latching, although often when she gets a latch that's not painful she clicks. She seems to be satisfied after only a few minutes, though, so I've continued pumping.

I can't quite get the hang of supplementing with the syringe/eye dropper AT the breast- the supplementing milk just drips off. The hospital LC had shown us finger feeding and we've been doing that but now I'm concerned that she is equating fingers with milk more than nipples, or is on the verge of that, so I want to back off on that. So now I'm conflicted as to what to do with the extra colostrum I pump- do I give it to her somehow or do I continue to wait for her to latch and feed at the breast (even though it doesn't seem like she can get enough that way?)

She's getting too sleepy to nurse regularly, though. Right now, she's peed a few times today, had two transitional poops, about 20 ml of supplemented colostrum plus whatever she gets when she nurses. But she hasn't nursed very long today, in fact, since 6 PM or so she's probably only nursed 20 minutes total Seems like she definitely gets some while she's there, because if I go to pump directly afterward, the breast she just nursed makes noticeably less milk (even if it's my usually less active breast).

So....put the colostrum in the fridge for now to try to convince her that she has to get it from the tap or finger feed and hope it doesn't cause confusion or what?

[teamsalem]

I am having the same issue. DD is 2 days old, and breastfeeding her has been excrutiating from the first time. She does what you are saying, clamps down as soon as I try to latch her. I'm pretty sure my daughter is tongue tied. When she moves her tongue around, it looks like there is a little divit in the tip. I just found this article on tongue tie and I found it helpful in identifying the problem - http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVAprMay02p27.html

Just a thought mama, apparently it is common for tongue tied babies to clamp down when latching.

[bri276]

Oh yes, I did think of that, my DD1 was/is tongue tied. That's not this baby's problem though (fortunately or unfortunately, not sure!) her tongue can go way out and I can see under it the frenulum isn't tight.

[ShwarmaQueen]

We found out DS was 'posterior' TT at 5 wks after his clicking, inability to latch, gas, and fussiness became too much. It is overlooked more often than regular TT because the tongue DOES extend and looks normal otherwise.

If there is any frenulum attached, you might consider this a possiblity and see an TT experienced LC for an eval.