Speaking up

[St. Margaret]

Eep! I thought long and hard before hitting send. But a friend from my very crunchy small friendly mom's group/play group was asking about peds and esp for circ since she was already nervous about it but her husband wanted it... so another friend replied slipping in some suggestions gently, and I did, too... maybe a little more forcefully. I said I just care about the issue and I'll shut up now if you've really decided... Oh man, I don't want to make drama in our very nice group but I just knew I had to say something for this baby. I hope she's really looking for info and support for turning the decision around. I at least hope she's okay with us sticking our noses in! But man, you bring circ up and I'm gonna speak up. How nerve racking, though. I KNOW it's the right thing to do but still! Where's the slightly nauseated smilie?

[Fyrestorm]

It gets easier the more you talk about it. It really does.

My DH always jokes that he has never heard a woman say the word penis in mixed company more easily than I do.

The more confident you are, the easier it goes over.

[Yulia_R]

It does get easier. Good for you for speaking up!

Once on a playground I met a pg with a boy woman and I lead our conversation to circ, of course. After learning the sick history of this procedure in North America (which is cure/prevention of masturbation) and after learning about the functions of foreskin and how brutal circ really is the mother said that this baby would be circ'd only over her dead body! When I came home I told it to dh and he said after a little while: "can you imagine this man will be intact and he will never even know why". it felt so good to hear it. Speaking out is so worth it! Some battles are lost, this is true, but others are not!

[St. Margaret]

Yay, she's not offended, but grateful! thank you so much for your support. She says her hubby is most concerned about it as a social thing-- I'm not sure if he's Australian, too, but she is, but living in the US he thinks it'll be a social thing. So I'm rounding up resources for her (she asked! yay!). I know of nocirc and some great posts on peaceful parenting/dr.mamma... I came back to get good links to send her. Gonna go through the stickies and old posts...

She thinks in our area the rate is really 90% and it's mostly hispanics that keep it so low... anyone have more info on CA stats?

Any other good resources appreciated!

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by St. Margaret

.. I came back to get good links to send her. !

Check out:
www.cirp.org
www.circumstitions.org
www.mothersagainstcirc.org

There is enough info there to keep her occupied for a good while!!

Good luck, and kudos to you for broaching the subject !!

[Yulia_R]

CA has one of the lowest circ rates! Only around 25% of boys are cut. Nation-wise, according to CDC only 33% of boys are circ'd in 2009 . So their little one will be totally the majority!

[St. Margaret]

That's what I tried to tell her, but her husband thinks in their exact area it's way higher circ'd. In my email I'm trying to point out that even if hispanics help lower our rates, such a low rate as 22% means that a LOT of boys in our area must be intact, too! Ugh, the social arguement is so silly. I mean, it's better to have a foreskin, and it's risky and painful and unethical to circ, and it's like, WHY would you do something out of social pressure, where it's coming from such a silly history as circ in the US? These are smart people who do a lot of wonderful parenting things (like, breastfeeding when so many don't! etc... they had a homebirth for goodness' sake! You'd think their midwives, whom I've met, would have hammered this home already, but maybe they couldn't push too much, being professionals?), so I know they will get it, hopefully just reading more about circ in general will overwhelm the sort of unarguable social issue.

[PlainandTall]

You should check out the Berkley parents network archive. Maybe Berkley is too much of its own microclimate but maybe it resonates with this dad.

[St. Margaret]

Thanks! Great idea!

[NSmomtobe]

I know how you feel. I have only recently had the opportunity to have this discussion. Circumcision is not done in this area, so I have never had the need to discuss it IRL, but I belong to an online group of mostly American moms (not crunchy) and I am the only one in the group with a boy. Two of the women are pregnant again. One of them found out that she was having a boy and before I could find a way to bring it up in conversation, she asked me about it (since I had a boy and all). So I told her what I thought and answered her questions ("yes, it does hurt and it is more work to take care of than an intact penis") and then I spent the next several days waiting for her (or the others in the group) to reply and I was so worried I would offend. Well, the good news is that when she eventually replied, she didn't seem offended and I was able to address her social concerns by sending stats for her area... The even better news is that I think I convinced one of the non-pregnant mothers to reconsider the procedure if she ever has a boy. The bad news is that both the pregnant women (the one who asked, and the one who said, "I hope I have another girl so I don't have to worry about this issue") have decided to circumcise their boys. After considering the information I gave them and "doing their own research and weighing the pros and cons" both women decided that circumcision was the way to go. : So I guess I'll get to hear all about it when it happens because they will be discussing it with each other. So goes my first attempt.

[tennisdude23]

How about who cares what other people do, as medical decisions should not be based on what the current aesthetic trend is. It's not as if you are putting the penis on display!

[eepster]

Originally Posted by St. Margaret

Eep!

Why are you addressing this at me?

JK.

Originally Posted by St. Margaret

That's what I tried to tell her, but her husband thinks in their exact area it's way higher circ'd. In my email I'm trying to point out that even if hispanics help lower our rates, such a low rate as 22% means that a LOT of boys in our area must be intact, too! Ugh, the social arguement is so silly. I mean, it's better to have a foreskin, and it's risky and painful and unethical to circ, and it's like, WHY would you do something out of social pressure, where it's coming from such a silly history as circ in the US? These are smart people who do a lot of wonderful parenting things (like, breastfeeding when so many don't! etc... they had a homebirth for goodness' sake! You'd think their midwives, whom I've met, would have hammered this home already, but maybe they couldn't push too much, being professionals?), so I know they will get it, hopefully just reading more about circ in general will overwhelm the sort of unarguable social issue.

I think part of what is going on here is that her DH maybe grasping at straws. He may want to believe the rate is 90% to justify an emotional attachment to circ.

[Fyrestorm]

I think the fact that anyone need to 'justify' circumcision speaks volumes

[WaitingForKiddos]

I mean this gently and not to share with her...or anyone on the fence because of % of circed boys. I personally don't buy the ca rate being that low. I recently posted about it. Since then I've meet a new group of mamas...also with a high circ rate and they are all homebirthin', selective/no vax, EBF, etc crunchy mamas. It comes as a shock to me and makes me think that most intact boys are only intact because an insurance co wouldn't pay for it. I mean, these are mamas that were so strong about their sons not having drugs during labor! And then 24 hours later they hand him over to, hopefully, get several injections of drugs!

As to your friend and the moms group....I'd go about it as you are. If you have a cite that says 90% of babies are intact use it. I think a fib about a % is worth saving a baby from circ.

[St. Margaret]

I know, I figure there are plenty getting it done after hospital stays, but then again plenty of homebirths and birthing centers in CA, too, that don't get figured in... who knows. I did finally share my view (and DH's, since she said she felt she couldn't entirely understand as a woman) that social pressure shouldn't bear on this anyway, that it's elective cosmetic surgery for babies. Gave her a huge list of links, and she's clearly invested in looking into it more, and says her husband is open minded about it, wants to agree on it, so I figure once you really start looking into it, it's going to be hard to elect to do it. Hopefully just knowing that we all from here and living here have made the intact choice will help. Baby is born already so they'd have to take him in to a ped to get it done, so I'm really hoping this one will be safe! Thanks for all your help!

[anony]

I'm not sure we're allowed to post Youtube links but I've seen some nice, heartwarming videos or comments on Youtube of mothers in the US who wee undecided or on the fence but ultimately decided against circumcision. I don't know, to me a glowing new mama and her baby is an even more wonderful sight if you know the boy was spared the pain of circ.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by anony

I'm not sure we're allowed to post Youtube links but I've seen some nice, heartwarming videos or comments on Youtube of mothers in the US who wee undecided or on the fence but ultimately decided against circumcision. I don't know, to me a glowing new mama and her baby is an even more wonderful sight if you know the boy was spared the pain of circ.

We can post links as long as the content is OK, and it isn't linked to your own commercial website or anything.

[BugMacGee]

I'm in the Silicon Valley. Our circ rate is low because we have a very large number of families from India, Asia, Europe and Latin America.

*Most* American families still choose to circ IME. Though there are those few that do not.

[WifeofAnt]

I really don't think it matters what the rate is in the immediate area. People aren't trees and many don't stay in the same neighborhood they were born in. Plus unless you live in a naturist/nudist society its not like everyone is going around checking out other people's genitals (and I doubt even naturists/nudists dedicate too much time to it). Unless they plan on discussing it with other people or changing diapers out in the open no one else is going to know. If they do know their opinion still doesn't matter.

[tennisdude23]

Originally Posted by WifeofAnt

I really don't think it matters what the rate is in the immediate area. People aren't trees and many don't stay in the same neighborhood they were born in. Plus unless you live in a naturist/nudist society its not like everyone is going around checking out other people's genitals (and I doubt even naturists/nudists dedicate too much time to it). Unless they plan on discussing it with other people or changing diapers out in the open no one else is going to know. If they do know their opinion still doesn't matter.

Thank you. This is why I find the "everyone else I know circs" argument so incredibly stupid. Even if that's true, who cares. You genitals are not out on display, and secondly, people move all the time. Most professionals change careers at least five times in the span of a lifetime. Hence, they move, and in a lot instances even end up going abroad. So, who cares if your neighbor down the street circumcised his/her son. The chances are they won't be your neighbor in a few years time.