love Pittsburgh? please share!

[wombatclay]

We're moving next August to either Pittsburgh PA or Buffalo NY so that DH can pursue his PhD. Part of the decision will rest on the livability of each city so please share the love of Pittsburgh (or PM me if you prefer).

We're a family of 5 currently living on a rural homestead outside Ithaca NY. We have a car but prefer walkable neighborhoods where DH could take the bus (DH would be at University of Pittsburgh, Oakland). We'll be living on a grad stipend and loans and my understanding of the law is we'd need a three bedroom apt or house and while we'd be eligible for WIC I'm not sure we'd qualify for other assistance. What neighborhoods (or suburbs) should I be focusing on? Or avoiding?

So... we are pagan (of the ADF druid variety), MBTP homeschoolers who delay/selective vax, cloth diaper, NIP, and live as organically/holistically as we can (though dd1 has celiac and dd2 has SPD so there are some limits on what we can do/eat). How are the public schools? Homeschool groups? Other groups like ICAN, API, mdc meetups, Holistic Moms? Are there any good CSAs or community gardens (good meaning "inexpensive" and "our only source of produce")? Any SteamPunk, Browncoat, Maker, ADF, Unitarian, or SCA groups that are active and family friendly?

Any great family practice drs, graduate family groups, inexpensive places to go with a 6yo, 4yo, and 2yo (the kiddos ages at the time of the move)?

Thanks all!

[Addie]

I love Pittsburgh, and definitely recommend it over Buffalo. It's very livable (we've gotten a host of most livable city accolades recently)

In regards to your specific questions, I'll answer the ones I have experience with:

Probably the most walkable neighborhood is Squirrel Hill. It's ethnically diverse, close to Pitt (next neighborhood over from Oakland), filled with big old houses as well as apartments. It's (relatively) expensive, but I'd bet you could find an affordable apartment. Other city neighborhoods worth exploring include Lawrenceville (up and coming, artists and lots of old houses to rehab), Friendship (similar), Highland Park, and Point Breeze. The bus system has been undergoing cuts, but if you stay within the city you should be fine. Your DH, by the way, will be able to ride the bus for free at all times with his student ID.

Public schools... We just have a baby so I've not done too much research, but the general opinion is that the public schools are getting better every year. There are several great magnet options.

I just read in another thread that there is a local ICAN group. There is an active chapter of LLL and a seemingly active AP group on meetup.com. We use a CSA that we love, I think it works out to about $20/week. There are quite a few other CSAs as well. Great farmers markets during the spring/summer/fall, as well as one that's year round in East Liberty. Shopping wise, we have Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, as well as a local co-op and another local HFS. Lots of ethnic markets too in the Strip District. It's pretty easy to find connections to local meats, we get local chickens from our CSA and pastured pork.

Lots of kid-friendly activities... The zoo/aquarium is open year round, we have a fantastic children's museum, a science center, a conservatory that is amazing to visit in the winter (so green!)... none of these are free but family memberships are generally affordable and you can always find coupons and promotions. There's a fantastic library system with lots of free kids events. Parks galore.

I don't work for the chamber of commerce, honest. I just really like it here.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

[wombatclay]

Sounds nice!

We're members of the SCA (a medieval recreation group) and the really big annual meeting is in Butler... about 45 minutes from Pittsburgh I think? So we're actually kind of familiar with the small towns of Butler/New Castle/Slippery Rock and the environs.

Squirrel Hill gets mentioned on the grad student pages as the best neighborhood, but with three kiddos we're "required" to get a three bedroom apt and those seem to be out of our budget. Apparently the graduate stipend is around 23K and it would be our only income (plus loans)... so we really would be living VERY close to the bone! But I've had other families give the thumbs up for Lawrenceville and Friendship so I'm going to add your vote to the list.

Thanks for all the links... I'm going to go exploring!

[klk197]

My SIL is in Friendship. Her rent is unbelievably cheap and I find it to be very family-friendly: a mix of old-time residents in big houses right next to apartments filled with new-comers. She rides her bike to Trader Joes and Whole Foods, so they are relatively close by my standards. I would feel very comfortable living there with my son. It is certainly worth considering.

Also, I'm married to a Pittsburgher. I have yet to meet a local or expat who doesn't LOVE the city. They are a very loyal breed.

[Addie]

Yeah, the more I think about it, Friendship could be a really great neighborhood for you. It's safe, affordable, diverse, and full of families. It has a lot of big houses that have been divided up into apartments, so I think you'd have good luck finding a 3 bedroom. It also has the pubic Montessori school, if that interests you. It's a magnet, I believe. The neighborhood has a few festivals and a house tour every year. It is very accessible by bus and an easy bus ride to Oakland. We live just north of Friendship and my DH commutes to Oakland by bike, and it takes him about 15 minutes.

Here's the website for the neighborhood, from the neighborhood development association.

Originally Posted by klk197

Also, I'm married to a Pittsburgher. I have yet to meet a local or expat who doesn't LOVE the city. They are a very loyal breed.

This is SO TRUE. It's part of what I love about living here.

[emmaegbert]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

with three kiddos we're "required" to get a three bedroom apt and those seem to be out of our budget.

why is this? occupancy laws? that sounds kooky to me. I was a grad student in San Diego and quite a few families of 5 and 6 that we knew were living in 2-bedroom apartments (university housing). Now I am in NYC (lol, and still a grad student) our family of 4 will be in a one-bedroom apartment, and that is not uncommon.

(...I just clicked on here b/c my DH claims to love Pittsburgh)

[wombatclay]

The occupancy laws follow the "one bedroom, two heartbeat" guidelines. Obviously a lot of landlords in states with that guideline don't mind if you have three kiddos in one bedroom or a couple sharing a bedroom with a young child (for example) but they don't have to rent an apartment to a family that would exceed that guideline. And neighbors can file complaints if an apartment is "over occupied" which could lead to legal action.

Oh, and often if a family grows while in an apartment it's not a big deal though it can be... we used to live in family housing at Cornell and at the time the university housing was limited to two children max. The birth of a third child terminated your housing contract since the apts were all 2 bedroom and the university had to abide by the one bedroom/two heartbeat guideline.

[AtYourCervices]

Definitely pick Pittsburgh over Buffalo.

[wombatclay]

AtYourCervices- without bashing Buffalo, can you elaborate? Have you lived in both? Or do you have family/friends who had a really hard time in Buffalo over Pittsburgh? Or just an amazing experience in Pittsburgh? I'm trying to build a realistic picture of the two different places and hope to gather as much specific info as possible about family life/options in the two communities.

It's funny, but the two cities seem to have a lot in common though I'd never really thought much about either place in the past.

[RunnerDuck]

Native Yinzer here.

If you're into SCA there is a group that meets at the corner of Washington Blvd and where Butler becomes Allegheny River Blvd. (technically I guess this is Highland Park) I don't know who runs this group, I am not in it, but I drive by it a lot when they are out and practicing/acting/playing. CMU used to have an SCA organization, more than likely still does. For Pagan stuff the Unitarian Church in Shadyside used to have a group (CUUPS) that met for solstices etc - don't know if they still do but might be a good place to meet people. There is also a unitarian church in the north hills with a play group with a LOT of homeschoolers which might be a good place to meet people but personally I would say NOT to look for a place to live in the north hills... we are in the North Hills and I want to move back city or south. Friendship, Larryville, Squirrel Hill, Bloomfield, Greenfield - lots of places you should be able to find family friendly affordable places to rent. We had a duplex in Squirrel Hill in college and I loved that place...

As for schools... It's hard to say. I went to city schools grades 4 thru 8. (Catholic before that, private after that) With the exception of the school I was at for 7th grade, which has closed, I had a great time, and felt the learning aspects were just fine. I was in the gifted program, I did well.

Right now if your kids go to city schools you get 40k per child for college in state - I really wish we had known this when we moved back here from California (we were gone 5 years) because we would have gotten a place in the city for sure, ideally with Mifflin as an elementary and Allderdice as high (this would be the Squirrel Hill/Greenfield high school, not sure about the other neighborhoods). A lot of people talk very poorly of the city schools now, though. I can't really have an opinion as I don't have a kid in the schools but I know one change that has happened, the schools used to be for the most part k-5, -6-8, and 9-12. Now there was a lot of k-8s and 9-12s - I think there is one k-6 and 7-12 pairing. Getting rid of a number of elementary and all the middle schools has meant a lot of "bussing" and I hate to say this but Pittsburgh does tend to have a lot of racial issues (by which I mean racist people) - just looking at my friends and family who complain about how the schools are now, I know at the heart of it is, they don't like the increased racial mixing early on. So a lot of what you may hear that is negative about the city schools is really just thinly veiled racism. So anything you hear, keep in mind the source. I am not saying all Pittsburghers are racist by any means, but my experience at least (and my native region is Munhall/Lincoln Place) says this attitude has a LOT to do with current opinions on the schools...

We want to get back to the city schools so whether that means I am very ignorant or very open minded remains to be seen.

The financial incentive is huge, as we will have 4 kids to put through college.

And personally I like the k-8 model for a school, vs. having middle school a stand alone thing, where you take kids when they are at their worst and isolate them from the rest of society. Always seemed so Lord of the Flies to me.

Anyway. I lived here 25 years, we spent a year in Seattle, 5 in CA, and now we are back, so obviously I love it. But I am from the southern edge of the city, and now I am in the north hills, and I feel like I am still not really home. Didn't realize how different the different areas really are, until I left. Obviously I liked the city schools, and we want to get back to that area.

So I vote Pittsburgh... but I know NOTHING about Buffalo. I'd joke "except it's cold there" - but last winter here was a doozy! So I wouldn't pick Pgh over Buffalo expecting our winters to be better, LOL

[Addie]

Originally Posted by AtYourCervices

Definitely pick Pittsburgh over Buffalo.

I've only been to Buffalo a few times, though I have good friends who live there - she grew up there, moved away, then moved back with her partner and child. It's not awful... I just don't think offers near as much as Pittsburgh does. The cities are similar in ways - both rust belt post-industrial cities, similar immigrant populations historically, both facing massive population loss over the past thirty years. Simply put, I think Pittsburgh has done (and is doing) a better job of reinventing itself. There's a lot of excitement among people who live here, and a lot of passion for the city. Like klk197 said, people LOVE Pittsburgh. I don't get that sense about Buffalo. Plus, Buffalo winters are rough!

Originally Posted by RunnerDuck

Right now if your kids go to city schools you get 40k per child for college in state - I really wish we had known this when we moved back here from California (we were gone 5 years) because we would have gotten a place in the city for sure, ideally with Mifflin as an elementary and Allderdice as high (this would be the Squirrel Hill/Greenfield high school, not sure about the other neighborhoods). A lot of people talk very poorly of the city schools now, though. I can't really have an opinion as I don't have a kid in the schools but I know one change that has happened, the schools used to be for the most part k-5, -6-8, and 9-12. Now there was a lot of k-8s and 9-12s - I think there is one k-6 and 7-12 pairing. Getting rid of a number of elementary and all the middle schools has meant a lot of "bussing" and I hate to say this but Pittsburgh does tend to have a lot of racial issues (by which I mean racist people) - just looking at my friends and family who complain about how the schools are now, I know at the heart of it is, they don't like the increased racial mixing early on. So a lot of what you may hear that is negative about the city schools is really just thinly veiled racism. So anything you hear, keep in mind the source. I am not saying all Pittsburghers are racist by any means, but my experience at least (and my native region is Munhall/Lincoln Place) says this attitude has a LOT to do with current opinions on the schools...

I won't deny their are racial issues in the city - as there are in any city, I'm sure - but I personally haven't encountered this issue in talking to people about schools. That might be due to self-selection though... The people who I tend to discuss these things with are more like us, transplants to the city who are excited about the potential. I have no doubt that some of the people who have lived here for generations are less optimistic. Our superintendent is sort of controversial in that he came in and closed a ton of elementary schools - a step that needed to be taken IMO because so many neighborhoods no longer had the population to support their schools. But Pittsburghers tend to be fiercely attached to their neighborhoods, and the idea of someone coming in from the outside and making sweeping changes didn't sit well with a lot of people. The school district is definitely a work in progress, but by most accounts it's getting better.

The tuition program is called the Pittsburgh Promise, and it's a huge incentive to send your kids to city schools! When it first started, the tuition funds were only applicable to PA state schools (Pitt, Penn State, etc) but it has been expanded to include private schools within the state as well. There are rumblings that it will eventually expand to colleges nationwide, which would be incredible.

Allderdice has traditionally been the best HS in the city, but there are new options too - CAPA (Creative and Performing Arts) HS is fantastic, the new science and tech academy is getting good reviews, and the board just approved a plan to open a new IB high school in the Peabody building (close to Friendship). So, things are looking up.

[Addie]

Also? Pittsburgh is beautiful. I did not expect that when I moved here. It's all rivers and hills and bridges, tall trees and green spaces. Buffalo, not so much.

[RunnerDuck]

Yes Pittsburgh is beautiful. Both the city itself with its amazing variety in topography (from level land to so steep you wonder how they could have built a house or a road - we have some sidewalks that are STEPS because the roads are so steep LOL) to the surrounding countryside... In the fall the Laurel Highlands are about the most amazing place on earth - we had our wedding at a ski resort in October and I can't imagine a more perfect setting.

You should try to get a hold of some of the numerous Rick Sebak documentaries on the city... I am a total social history dork and if social history dorks had a church this guy would be the priest. I love him...

eta Yes you will find different attitudes between newcomers and old timers, wrt to schools etc. I think it's also a regional thing... as the landscape differs so much... the rivers really break things up. When I tell people here (North Hills) that I grew up in Munhall I get "*gasp* You crossed a river!" and it's only half in jest. My burning desire to get back over that river shows how different the feel is. But with the good comes some bad. Who you meet, where they are from, what section of the city you settle in - you will get a much different flavor. Like I said I am not saying ALL Pittsburghers are racist as they are NOT but when you hear anything bad about the schools, consider that aspect of who you are talking to!!!

I was surprised to learn we are opening an Obama school here - to replace one of the high schools that is closing/closed - a friend who is a teacher told me this - I was surprised because the North Hills generally is pretty anti-Obama. The city, I guess, not so much. Then when you get further south again, I guess it creeps in more. I don't know.

I do know the North Hills is VERY white, and I don't like it. I prefer more of a mix.

[Addie]

The Obama school is open now, it's what will eventually (?) become the IB school. It's at the Riezenstein building, which was formerly Schenley after they closed the Schenley building in Oakland. Clear as mud.

Lots of Obama supporters in the city. The city is fiercely democratic, almost to a fault, and it generally gets more conservative as you go out into the burbs.

I did some student teaching in North Allegheny, and I agree, it's very white.

The bit about "crossing the river" is so true. And if you have to cross two rivers? Forget it. One friend who grew up in the south hills talked about how her family got so mad when she registered at Babies R Us, and the only one was in Monroeville.

We are pretty much dedicated to living in the city forever, I don't think I could hack it in the burbs.

[RunnerDuck]

Is it open? I thought it was still called Schenley at Reizenstien. Schenley used to be the IB school, I had a friend who went there when it was in the old building and loved it.

I went to Reizenstein for OVT way back when the nabisco factory was still working... it used to smell SO good over there then.

Yeah, I crossed 2 rivers! The mon and the allegheny. I don't know what we were thinking, LOL

[Addie]

Originally Posted by RunnerDuck

Is it open? I thought it was still called Schenley at Reizenstien. Schenley used to be the IB school, I had a friend who went there when it was in the old building and loved it.

I went to Reizenstein for OVT way back when the nabisco factory was still working... it used to smell SO good over there then.

Yeah, I crossed 2 rivers! The mon and the allegheny. I don't know what we were thinking, LOL

I think they kept it as "Schenley at Reizenstein" until the last class that had transfered over when Schenley closed graduated. So, it might be just this year that it got renamed Obama.

Have you seen the new Bakery Square development? Pretty good reuse of the old Nabisco factory.

[RunnerDuck]

I thought there was a 12th grade class there now, and when it leaves, the Schenley school will be no more. Checking the PPS website somehow it seems I am living a year in the past LOL

Yup, I have been inside the old factory. Pretty cool!!! Alas no wonderful smells lingering... but it's been a good 10+ years since they closed, so I guess that's to be expected.

[AtYourCervices]

I grew up in Niagara Fall, NY. It's not too far from Buffalo. I've met some awesome people in the area (you really have to find your niche, Allentown is great), but I found a lot of negative attitudes in the area. Racism is quite common (whites vs. blacks & blacks vs. whites). When walking down the street, pregnant, with 2 little children in tow, there would be people throwing 40oz beer bottles at me, calling me "cracker". A young woman once lectured me saying I was doing a disservice to the black race by having more white babies and it was my duty to have biracial children. You'd find crack baggies on the street, and needles littering the sidewalks (even in the "middle class" neighborhoods). I know tons of people who were eager to move away, and once they moved they never boomeranged back. It was always "Goodbye and good riddance!"

My brother moved to Pittsburgh when he was 17 years old. To be honest, I don't know what the race relations are like there. However, I know he absolutely loved it there. He still goes back to visit. He has always said Pittsburgh was so much better than Niagara Falls/Buffalo.

Currently I live about 1 1/2 hours from Buffalo & 3 hours from Pittsburgh. Occasionally I'll meet a person from Pittsburgh here. In fact, I met a woman from Pitt just a few days ago. They ALWAYS talk about how wonderful it is.

[wombatclay]

Thanks all!

And a glowing review from someone with a Cannibal quote in their sig counts double in my opinion. Thanks for elaborating!

We currently live about 4 hours from Buffalo, about 6 hours from Pittsburgh... but I really don't have a good "feel" for either place. I think I've been to Buffalo two or three times (while going to the Falls, or heading for Canada) and I've been near Pittsburgh 11 or 12 times for Pennsic but never in the city. And tourist brochures/move-here-propaganda is...well... not exactly an unbiased look. So these lived reviews really count!

I'm leaning a bit more towards Pittsburgh honestly, though it'll eventually come down to which program DH can benefit more from. If it's a toss up though I think I'll vote Pittsburgh, so keep the insight coming!

[cappuccinosmom]

Well, if you end up in Pittsburgh, I think you'll find community there (probably more than we did because we're way on the conservative end of the spectrum ). I concur with what everyone else already said.

It is a beautiful city, lots of cool stuff to do, fascinating history, etc. There are a few neighborhoods that you wouldn't want to spend much time in for safety reasons, sadly, but they're pretty well defined.

My biggest complaint from when we lived in the city was that it's really poorly designed for winter driving. Many of the neighborhoods have driveways at a 45 degree angle. I don't know how anyone gets in or out of those, and often the houses are built on a slope so street parking is iffy as well.