Dealing with perfectionism in the young child.

[minkajane]

I've posted several times about DS's issues with saying he doesn't know something even when he does. It's still going on. I'm starting to wonder if maybe he'd rather say he doesn't know than get it wrong. Sometimes if we press, he'll give us the correct answer, sometimes he keeps saying he doesn't know, even if he or I just said it 30 seconds ago. It's ridiculously frustrating. How can we move forward in his learning if I haven't got a clue what he's picking up on and what he's having trouble with because he acts like he's forgotten it five seconds later?

The kid's smarter than I am, so I know it's not an issue of having trouble learning. It doesn't seem like a learning disability. He'll bring things up constantly that he's picked up here or there, even months later, it's just when he's questioned about anything that his automatic answer is I don't know. He doesn't even try to think about the answer, it just pops out. If we catch him in the right mood, he'll do his reading or math or whatever and answer just fine, so I know he knows it. Problem is, that mood lasts for about 5 minutes a day and if we miss it, that's it. We're out of luck for any type of review or assessment whatsoever.

He's not perfectionist in other areas - his room's a wreck - but it really seems like he is with this. How do I deal with this? This has been going on for over a year now and DH and I are totally at a loss. I have no idea what to teach him, what he needs review on, what he enjoys, because no matter what I ask him, the answer is I don't know.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by minkajane

I have no idea what to teach him, what he needs review on, what he enjoys, because no matter what I ask him, the answer is I don't know.

Could you stop asking him questions as a way of assessing? I've seen kids completely shut down when they feel they're being quizzed even when they totally understand the subject and even if the questioning was being done in a relaxed manner.

We've never tested our kids or asked them to answer questions with the goal of seeing how much they know. However, we've had many discussions about various topics and their input makes it clean what they know and understand. I've also been able to simply observe and notice if they were having trouble with something, and then offer them help with it.

[dejagerw]

With a quick search, I couldn't find the article online, but I do recall reading an article once about how you shouldn't tell your kid they're smart. Basically, it was some study that found kids who are frequently told that they're smart are more likely to underperform for fear of losing their "smart" status. They'll take the easy assignment rather than the more challenging one in order to secure the better grade and so on. They've also found kids labeled as "smart" and kids with higher IQs tend to give up more easily because the child feels if they're not great at something, then there's no reason to pursue it.

I'm not sure if this applies to your situation at all, but it could be worth thinking about. Basically, its supposed to be better to praise a child's effort rather than result. So maybe he is feeling pressure to always respond with the correct answer.

[minkajane]

That's an interesting thought, but he's only 5. Wouldn't that attitude manifest after some time? We've only been doing formal schooling for about a month, but this has gone on for a while, when we've tried to teach him things like reading.

I don't know how I'm supposed to teach him how to read without asking questions. I ask him to read a simple word he's read before and he'll ask what each letter says. How am I supposed to teach him to sound words out if I can't ask him to do it?

[moominmamma]

Even some very young kids can have a visceral aversion to "performing" for the pleasure or evaluative intent of adults. They recoil from "questions that aren't questions" as we call them in this family. In other words, questions where the person asking doesn't really want to know the answer, they want to know whether you know the answer. I have three kids who were like this from age 3 or 4, long before I started thinking about homeschooling -- and it's what pushed me to unschool them instead. One is a perfectionist, one had some elements of perfectionism as a youngster which she outgrew, and one isn't really a perfectionist at all. They all hate "questions that aren't questions."

My perfectionists had explosive meltdowns over letters that were mis-formed, drawings that didn't "look right," piano pieces with wrong notes. They would not join in gymnastics or soccer until they had observed for ages and practiced privately to be sure they could already do what as being taught. They didn't talk until they could do so like little adults. If you're experiencing things like that, your ds may a perfectionist. But if it's mostly in the context of evaluative questions during homeschooling, I expect he's just averse to evaluative intent in "questions that aren't questions." If that's the case, you'll just have to change your approach from quizzing to observing -- and learn to be trusting and patient, waiting for him to show you what he knows on his own terms.

Miranda

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by dejagerw

With a quick search, I couldn't find the article online, but I do recall reading an article once about how you shouldn't tell your kid they're smart. Basically, it was some study that found kids who are frequently told that they're smart are more likely to underperform for fear of losing their "smart" status.

The article is "How Not to Talk to Your Kids: The Inverse Power of Praise". It is further fleshed out to make up the first chapter in the book Nurture Shock by Po Bronson, which I highly recommend -- I'm in the middle of it just now.

Miranda

[Lisa1970]

Stop asking questions and just start doing things. Plus, developmentally, kids his age do not do well with open ended questions. Try more closed ones, like "would you prefer to do your handwriting first, or phonics?" I would keep lessons short, very short.

My 6 yr old has 1 page of handwriting out of HWOT. He has 1 page of math out of Singapore Math. Then we do some sort of phonics activity. I also purchased him the Brain Quest book and have some educational computer games. I would never have a lesson that lasted more then 5-10 minutes at 6. Kids this age also usually thrive on schedules and get more defiant when they don't have one. SO just pick on. Breakfast first, then a chore (small chore), and then handwriting, then the math page, and then the phonics activity. That is how we do it.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by minkajane

That's an interesting thought, but he's only 5.


I don't know how I'm supposed to teach him how to read without asking questions. I ask him to read a simple word he's read before and he'll ask what each letter says. How am I supposed to teach him to sound words out if I can't ask him to do it?

Oh, I completely missed his age! At this age, I was doing a lot of reading TO my children, but not asking them to read. From what you say, it sounds like your ds might not be ready to read yet. Have you considered waiting?

[Breathless Wonder]

Originally Posted by minkajane

He's not perfectionist in other areas - his room's a wreck - but it really seems like he is with this. How do I deal with this? This has been going on for over a year now and DH and I are totally at a loss. I have no idea what to teach him, what he needs review on, what he enjoys, because no matter what I ask him, the answer is I don't know.

I just wanted to point out- perfectionism is on the spectrum of anxiety disorders, and comes in varying degrees of severity.

A perfectionist child or adult can have disorganization in one or more areas of their life, because they want to do something "perfectly", and get overwhelmed when they can not, for whatever reason, achieve perfection. It may prevent them from trying to do whatever the thing is, or inhibit their ability to maintain it.

So it may be an issue in more areas of your son's life than you realize.

[4evermom]

I don't ask my ds questions to ascertain his knowledge. I just observe him discretely if I want to know how he's doing. I think he's more willing to spontaneously share his discoveries since I don't quiz him. He particularly hated the whole "sound it out" concept yet learned to read none the less. I could tell how his reading was progressing because he stopped asking me to read directions in computer games.

I think my ds has very mild tendencies toward perfectionism, more with writing than other things, but some of it is his having a sense of privacy about his thoughts, discoveries, and feelings. He tells me when he's ready but isn't responsive to point blank questioning. I think that might be a stereotypical boy thing. You know how they say it's better to talk to boys about their feelings while doing something, like a car ride or a hike, rather than sitting down across the table. The direct across the table style is too confrontational or something and makes many boys want to shut down.

[pampered_mom]

He'll bring things up constantly that he's picked up here or there, even months later, it's just when he's questioned about anything that his automatic answer is I don't know.

Your son could also be one of those people who needs to digest things for awhile before he really gets it. It may seem like he doesn't know or that he isn't listening when in reality he just hasn't had the chance to internalize things or categorize them into something meaningful.

My son is very much this way. He can also be a bit of a perfectionist - especially when it comes to drawing. Asking questions and pushing the issue is almost always counter-productive. If he answers that he doesn't know or shows signs of being frustrated I take that as a sign that we need to back off, slow things down, or even stop something completely. It gives me time to regroup and maybe try something new (the Leapfrog phonics DVDs for instance which worked far better than my non-TV self likes to admit).

It could be that your son is giving you a sign that he's not ready. Continuing to push the issue will not only frustrate you, it could also make him less willing to tackle those subjects when he is ready. With my son (5 1/2) I've always tried to keep the big picture in mind. I don't want him to hate school later on because I pushed too hard when he was so young. For me the whole point of homeschooling was that I could tailor things specifically to my child. We can go at his pace and with his interests. So I watch him and try to join him where he's at. Sometimes it works wonderfully and sometimes it fails miserably. What's the rush?

You never know...the thing that he seems to not understand now or struggles with might be easy a week, two weeks, or three months from now. He may very well surprise you and bring it up on his own somewhere down the road. He is listening and he is learning whether or not you can specifically quantify it. Why continue to frustrate both him and yourself?