CPS removed Illinois baby after homebirth - can it happen to any of us? - Page 2

[allisonrose]

Originally Posted by smeep

Really?! Noooo way!!! Not like it will do much good anyway because almost no doctors anymore have seen, trained or actually assisted in one.

Sorry, total pregnancy brain: the reversal she mentioned is on repeat csection over VBAC.

[hotmamacita]

Originally Posted by nashvillemidwife

Keep in mind that there are 2 sides to every story, and the truth usually rests somewhere in the middle. Such is probably true for this case, especially when the only side of the story you're hearing is the one printed in the media.

I wish it were that easy--

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by hotmamacita

I wish it were that easy--

Perhaps it is EVEN SIMPLER than "the truth lies in the middle" in this case. A baby was removed after a homebirth, for reasons related to the homebirth. Period. If those facts are correct, which I think they are, that is enough to be appalled about.

For me, it means that the state can take your children away for any practice they don't like. That would include those most of us on MDC choose, because we are thinking, reading, loving parents. Does CPS not have the obligation to only remove children who are truly in danger from their families? Is it not stipulated what constitutes neglect, for instance? Instead, they can group anything they like under that header, and take your kids away? Taking children away from loving families is not acceptable.

Court-ordered c-sections, CPS taking kids for homebirths, and even homeschooling... I am glad I don't live in the US right now, even though the country I live in has laws that are much more restrictive (mandatory vaccinations, mandatory school attendance and more).

[Partaria]

My heart is just breaking for this family. I can't imagine having a little one and then just a few weeks later, having her snatched away from you, when all you wanted to do was bond with your newborn.

How is removing this baby from the warm arms of mom and dad and being put, at six weeks old, into the arms of total strangers going to be helpful to her? And what if the baby is breastfeeding? Did the state also make the all-mighty decision to put her on formula?

And honestly I guess I don't get all of this talk from the state about how the parents can be considered somehow negligible. Because they did an HB when OBs wanted to do a Csection? What if these people (and clearly nothing in the information out suggests they do, but for the sake of argument) had issues with C-section and other invasive medical procedures based on religious grounds?

[peainthepod]

This is just another reason to avoid OBs unless you absolutely need a surgeon for your birth. How awful that it's come to this, though. I will be praying for that poor family.

[Lady Lilya]

I believe I read somewhere that it is Canada that is trying to move away from C/Ss for breech births. I heard they are going to encourage birth attendants to get trained. They don't want the breech factor alone to be cause for an automatic C/S.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

Court-ordered c-sections, CPS taking kids for homebirths, and even homeschooling... I am glad I don't live in the US right now, even though the country I live in has laws that are much more restrictive (mandatory vaccinations, mandatory school attendance and more).

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Yes, we have rare cases where CPS or the courts get involved, but we also have hundreds of thousands of homeschoolers doing their own thing daily without harassment and I have no idea how many people using our variety of vax exemptions.

As someone that HS'd and is vax free, I'd rather take the chance I might have to fight for my rights here than give them up completely where you are.

[pearl2]

They'd have to put me in foster care, too. That's because I would have fused myself to my baby so they couldn't get us apart. Yup. I am super sad for this family.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Yes, we have rare cases where CPS or the courts get involved, but we also have hundreds of thousands of homeschoolers doing their own thing daily without harassment and I have no idea how many people using our variety of vax exemptions.

As someone that HS'd and is vax free, I'd rather take the chance I might have to fight for my rights here than give them up completely where you are.

You are right, that makes no sense at all! forgot to mention the most important aspect of this country. Though laws are restrictive, there is not much done in the way of law enforcement. Corruption is pretty universal, and laws change every few months. I realize that civil liberties are pretty wonderful on paper in the US in most states, but when I see these news stories I just go . Our country of residence, the legislative and executive powers, are just such a joke that I feel just fine with doing whatever it is that I was going to do any way. Generally, when you mention the word "foreigner", everything is allowed.

So law and practice are two separate things. My point was that in the US, where these are rights, you risk prosecution despite your actions being perfectly legal. Even here, where those choices are in fact illegal, there is no risk of prosecution.

Sorry for hijacking the discussion .

[Arduinna]

I cringe when I read these stories too, and we are fighting an element that wishes to restrict personal freedoms and choices because they feel the good of the whole supercedes the rights of the individual.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I cringe when I read these stories too, and we are fighting an element that wishes to restrict personal freedoms and choices because they feel the good of the whole supercedes the rights of the individual.

Yet I think their perception of what is good for the whole of society is slightly warped .

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

For me, it means that the state can take your children away for any practice they don't like.

As a mama planning an HB, I too am appalled at CPS removing a child simply because of HB. (If that is indeed the case & there weren't other reasons for the removal of the child.)

HOWEVER - it is much less appalling if you look at it from their point of view. Sad but true. They think HB is negligent. They think HB endangers a child. The "authorities" of ACOG & AMA state this explicitly, so it's not unreasonable for a logical, educated person to buy into this view and believe ACOG & AMA to be correct. & they have even data to back it up with that recently released "study" that HB triples neonatal death.

So let me ask you all this. Do you disagree with CPS removing a child if the parents truly were negligent & endangered a child? Take any extreme example. Say the child is choking & the parents refuse to attempt to perform any sort of Heimlich maneuver to save the child for whatever reason. This is obviously true negligence to refuse to take any action to save a child's life. Would it be unreasonable for CPS to remove a child in this instance? Particularly if such behavior were typical & representative of the parents views?

I guess my point is - CPS isn't the problem. The state "disagreeing" with HB isn't the problem either. The problem is a lack of education on HB! The problem is that educated, well-meaning people truly & sincerely believe that HB is "child endangerment" - HB is dangerous, HB is negligent, HB is indicative of negligent parenting & something only negligent parents would attempt.

I personally place a lot more blame on ACOG & AMA than CPS for their ridiculous, idiotic smear campaign against HB. I kinda feel sorry for CPS folks. How are they to know the truth?

[Banana731]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

The problem is a lack of education on HB![/B] The problem is that educated, well-meaning people truly & sincerely believe that HB is "child endangerment" - HB is dangerous, HB is negligent, HB is indicative of negligent parenting & something only negligent parents would attempt.

I personally place a lot more blame on ACOG & AMA than CPS for their ridiculous, idiotic smear campaign against HB. I kinda feel sorry for CPS folks. How are they to know the truth?

How about we start a campaign to spam IL CPS with info from reputable sources about the safety of homebirth?

[Arianwen]

If they are removing children because they think HB is dangerous, then they need to start removing every kid born in a hospital, as in the US, it's MORE DANGEROUS to mother and child to be in a hospital, than have a homebirth with a certified midwife. Otherwise, those countries in Europe that have more homebirths etc than we do would have higher maternal and fetal fatality rates than the USA does...but hey, that's not the reality, right?

Oy vey.

[mom2reenie]

I'm having a homebirth in Illinois next month with a CNM. I will admit that at first the story worried me because we are homebirthing in an area where it's not widely accepted....but I also have heard more details about the story that makes me think there was more than just the homebirth.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

As a mama planning an HB, I too am appalled at CPS removing a child simply because of HB. (If that is indeed the case & there weren't other reasons for the removal of the child.)

HOWEVER - it is much less appalling if you look at it from their point of view. Sad but true. They think HB is negligent. They think HB endangers a child. The "authorities" of ACOG & AMA state this explicitly, so it's not unreasonable for a logical, educated person to buy into this view and believe ACOG & AMA to be correct. & they have even data to back it up with that recently released "study" that HB triples neonatal death.

So let me ask you all this. Do you disagree with CPS removing a child if the parents truly were negligent & endangered a child? Take any extreme example. Say the child is choking & the parents refuse to attempt to perform any sort of Heimlich maneuver to save the child for whatever reason. This is obviously true negligence to refuse to take any action to save a child's life. Would it be unreasonable for CPS to remove a child in this instance? Particularly if such behavior were typical & representative of the parents views?

I guess my point is - CPS isn't the problem. The state "disagreeing" with HB isn't the problem either. The problem is a lack of education on HB! The problem is that educated, well-meaning people truly & sincerely believe that HB is "child endangerment" - HB is dangerous, HB is negligent, HB is indicative of negligent parenting & something only negligent parents would attempt.

I personally place a lot more blame on ACOG & AMA than CPS for their ridiculous, idiotic smear campaign against HB. I kinda feel sorry for CPS folks. How are they to know the truth?

I get what you're saying here, but I disagree in one respect.

Do the authorities (CPS, police, etc.) or the hospitals (please note I'm separating them, as the whole "doctors are authority figures" issues makes me nuts) have any reason to believe that the "negligence" of having a homebirth is an indicator of future negligence? IMO, that's a key point, which is often overlooked. If a parent ignores their choking child, and doesn't give them appropriate first aid, it's reasonable to suppose said parent would react inappropriately in other scenarios (or even if the child choked again). But, even if one accepts (I don't) the biased argument that homebirth is negligent and endangers the baby, it doesn't logically follow that the parents who have a homebirth are negligent in any other respect.

What purpose is served by taking a child away, based on a one-off issue that can't be repeated in that child's life? Even if homebirth were negligent (which it's not), once the child has been born, it's a non-issue. Unless there's a real-life correlation with homebirth and abuse/neglect of an infant/child who is already out of the mother's body, removing that child from the care of its parents is not only cruel, it's also completely illogical...very much a case of locking the barn door after the horse was stolen...and that's assuming homebirth is even negligent, which it isn't.

This isn't just about a screwed up perception that homebirth is dangerous, because even if it were, taking away the child after it's born offers no protection. Birth, unlike provision of food, shelter, clothing, education, discipline, etc., is a one-time aspect of a child's life. It's reasonable to assume that a parent who has a history of starving, beating, abandoning, etc. their child will continue to do so. A mom who has a homebirth with Child A may well homebirth with Child B, but they're never going to homebirth with Child A again...so what purpose is served by taking Child A away from his/her mom and dad (and also, if mom was going to breastfeed, from the best source of sustenance and bonding available to him/her)??

Okay - dd2 kept me awake half the night, then ds1 woke me up early to give him a lift. I was already tired. So, I'm really wiped out right now. I have no idea if this made sense or not. I know what I'm thinking makes sense, but I have no idea if managed to put it across...

[turnquia]

Originally Posted by mom2reenie

I'm having a homebirth in Illinois next month with a CNM. I will admit that at first the story worried me because we are homebirthing in an area where it's not widely accepted....but I also have heard more details about the story that makes me think there was more than just the homebirth.

Out of curiosity are you able to share those maybe details?

I personally think there is more to the story... however I wouldn't be fully surprised either if there wasn't.

Was the c-section recommended only because she was breech or was there another reason for it? A potential previa? History of multiple c-sections or a VBAC with uterine rupture? Something complicating to the breech that she was a footling vs a frank breech? I mean there could be so many things... Was the family doing a homebirth to stay "under the radar" because their other children have been removed from their care. (I have known someone who did this).

I guess my other question is.. if they are going after this family for neglect... will there be charges against the midwife? Since CNM's have to operate under a doctors (license) supervision. They act independantly but the OB who could have said no, may have been her supervising/back up OB?

[kittywitty]

I disagree, acutally, MegBoz. Not here in IL, at least. We've been investigated for cosleeping and homeschooling and tons and tons more people have, too. CP S in this state are honestly very overreactive.

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

What purpose is served by taking a child away, based on a one-off issue that can't be repeated in that child's life? Even if homebirth were negligent (which it's not), once the child has been born, it's a non-issue.
<snip>

This isn't just about a screwed up perception that homebirth is dangerous, because even if it were, taking away the child after it's born offers no protection.

I totally get what you're saying & it does make sense.

The reason I chose not helping a choking child as an example is because it's failure to offer medical attention to an ailing child. (If you define the Heimlich maneuver as "medical attention" - which I think technically it is.) & I think a lot of HB opponents view HB as a failure to offer medical attention - they view it as deliberately declining modern medicine - just like with the choking child.

They may view it as dangerous because you are 'opting out' of modern medicine, which can be life-saving. (Again, we here know how idiotic such a view is since an HB MW has lots of "modern medicine" with her, but, again, I'm looking at it from the view of CPS & police who don't know any better.)

It's awful & wrong, but I can kinda see where CPS people are coming from. As I said, how are they to know any better? Their job is to protect kids from abuse & neglect. A former ACOG president actually said "HB is the earliest form of child abuse." (I believe this was in the 1980s or 1990s, I think I read it in the fantastic book, Pushed.)

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by kittywitty

I disagree, acutally, MegBoz. Not here in IL, at least. We've been investigated for cosleeping and homeschooling and tons and tons more people have, too. CP S in this state are honestly very overreactive.

Sorry, guess I shoulda been more clear - I'm not saying CPS are not being silly! I'm not trying to defend them (I'm planning an HB myself! So I clearly don't consider it negligent!)

I'm just saying I can see how it's possible for them to honestly believe HB is negligent, and therefore cause for removing a child in order to protect the child. I can see how they could believe they are just doing their job of protecting children from danger.

Although the same things I've been saying about the prevailing American beliefs of HB can also be said for co-sleeping. Doesn't the American Academy of Pediatrics officially oppose it as dangerous? I remember the on-call pedi at the hospital lecturing me on how horrifically dangerous it was & I wasn't even doing it or planning on doing it! She just felt the need to warn me anyway. (My own pedi was on vacation at the time.)

So, again, the organization widely viewed as "the expert" and even the "authority" officially states that co-sleeping is dangerous (& one could imply, therefore, it is negligent.) How is CPS to know any better?