CPS removed Illinois baby after homebirth - can it happen to any of us? - Page 3

[Lady Lilya]

I don't know of any law protecting our right to co-sleep. But there ARE laws protecting our rights to have homebirths or not to vaccinate. Yet CPS thinks all of those are reasons to investigate a family.

[turnquia]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

I don't know of any law protecting our right to co-sleep. But there ARE laws protecting our rights to have homebirths or not to vaccinate. Yet CPS thinks all of those are reasons to investigate a family.

I think those investigations stem from just making sure you are taking care of your child. Remember not all of those who choose NOT to vaccinate do so because its a thought out decision. Some do it because they truely are neglecting their kids and not seeking treatment for things etc. So especially when a previously fully vaccinated kid sorta disappears off the radar (so to speak) then they look to make sure all is well, not that they think you not vaccinating is bad.

Same with homebirth. Some (i personally know someone who chose this). Chose a homebirth unassisted not because she thought it was safe, but because her other children had been taken away for neglect and she wanted this child to not be in the "system".

So not all CPS investigations from from some malicious intent, they do look into the welfare of the kids. Some CPS cases do seem way out in left field though, and some kids who truely need help never get it. They do the best they can most of the time... but its a flawed system all the way around.

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

I don't know of any law protecting our right to co-sleep. But there ARE laws protecting our rights to have homebirths or not to vaccinate. Yet CPS thinks all of those are reasons to investigate a family.

I am not aware of any laws "protecting our rights to have homebirths." Could you perhaps clarify? Thanks.

Valerie

[LiLStar]

MegBoz, I get what you're saying that they might think of them as opting out of medical care (and might opt out again, presumably) except, they DID take the baby to the hospital, which indicates that they are willing to seek medical care/treatment

[Lady Lilya]

Valerie, I don't know state by state, but isn't IL one of the states where CNMs are licensed? I've lived in NY and NC, and in both of those CNMs are licensed. Also, I know some states have laws that say a woman can birth where she chooses. (But there are restrictions on birth attendants.)

In NY, there is also a process to go through if you intend to homeschool, where you announce to the state your intention to homeschool and they reply back confirming.

Most states also have a process to exempt your children from vaccinations.

So my point is, even if the state has some things in writing that show that homebirth and homeschool are not vaxing acceptable options, CPS workers may not accept that. And maybe we could get lawyers and fight, but it is still messy and traumatic during the process.

In the case of co-sleeping we might be even worse off, because as far as I know no state has a stance on it. So if we are being pestered by CPS over that issue, we can't pull up state laws to support our choice.

And I guess that is why I always hear that you should have a bed per child in case of a visit from CPS.

[MiaMama]

Uggg.

Car accidents are the leading cause of death and injury for children under 14 in the US. CPS should come take my kids from me because I drive them to the park.
I risk their lives daily for something that is just for FUN! I use fancy car seats and I use them right, but still, for infants the risk is only decreased by 71% and for my older DD, the risk of death is only reduced 54% because of those seats.

totally negligent

CPS would never take a kid because you chose an unsafe car. The Cadilac STS was rated the least safe car of 2010. Maybe CPS should call all the registered owners of those cars and make sure they are not putting any kids in them. That would save more lives than any so-tiny-its-unmeasurable difference between homebirth and hospital birth.

Ironically, many people would argue that would be way to highly intrusive to their personal lives and not the place of government to tell you which car to drive!

[smeep]

Originally Posted by turnquia

So not all CPS investigations from from some malicious intent, they do look into the welfare of the kids. Some CPS cases do seem way out in left field though, and some kids who truely need help never get it. They do the best they can most of the time... but its a flawed system all the way around.

To me it really sounds like you're giving them WAY too much credit. As someone who has had a very close experience with CPS, they do NOT do the best they can most of the time. I understand the points you made about some people making those choices out of true neglect, but I wouldn't say that CPS does the best they can most of the time. I have seen situations where intervention was needed and CPS did not intervene in the way that they should have and instead tore families apart because they didn't want to hassle with the case anymore. I have also seen a couple of cases where CPS was called (and rightfully so!) and they did NOTHING. I think they are FAR more flawed then most people realise. I don't think I would ever call CPS on anyone unless they were truly 100% neglectful, which is unfair because CPS is supposed to help families who just need some extra assistance, but I have seen them abuse their power and rip those families apart because they didn't want to waste their time on it. It's truly disturbing.

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Valerie, I don't know state by state, but isn't IL one of the states where CNMs are licensed? I've lived in NY and NC, and in both of those CNMs are licensed. Also, I know some states have laws that say a woman can birth where she chooses. (But there are restrictions on birth attendants.)

Illinois does indeed license advanced practice nurses (as does every state), including CNMs, but licensure of a CNM is not the same thing as "protecting our rights to have homebirths." To the best of my knowledge there is no state or federal law that recognizes a right to give birth at home.

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by LiLStar

MegBoz, I get what you're saying that they might think of them as opting out of medical care (and might opt out again, presumably) except, they DID take the baby to the hospital, which indicates that they are willing to seek medical care/treatment

Another great point. But I don't know the details of this case (as someone said, we only have one side of the story & there certainly could be more to it.) I was more commenting in general on the concept of HB being viewed as neglectful & abusive, and therefore HB as cause for CPS involvement (in general.)

Originally Posted by smeep

To me it really sounds like you're giving them WAY too much credit. As someone who has had a very close experience with CPS, they do NOT do the best they can most of the time.

But isn't it just like anything else - just like MWs, OBs, L&D Nurses, Lactation Consultants, Fitness Instructors (something I do part time) police officers, etc.? There are idiots, power-abusers, sadists, & clueless jerks who make life worse for people (that was my experience with 3 of the 4 hospital LCs I met with.) & there are well-intentioned, but clueless morons. Then there are really awesome people who are both well-intentioned, competent, smart, hard-working, etc. There are all types in all professions.

Although I'd imagine you could say on the whole CPS in a certain county is better than another county or state. But I would be willing to bet my house there are BOTH plenty of fantastic, and plenty of awful CPS workers & CPS departments.

[turnquia]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

Although I'd imagine you could say on the whole CPS in a certain county is better than another county or state. But I would be willing to bet my house there are BOTH plenty of fantastic, and plenty of awful CPS workers & CPS departments.

Yes this. And yes my husband came from a family where physical abuse was witnessed by others and called and nothing was done MORE than once. There was an incident in which myself, security guards and about 100 law students witnessed his dad assult him. Was anything done... nope. My husband was old enough at that point (17) and was able to legally leave on his own. He stayed with a family friend for about a year after leaving his house.

So yes the system is flawed. But I as a nurse.. have also seen it work. I personally witnessed something aweful and had to call... and later found out there was sooo much that had gone on in that home and its was the one chance we called 2 little kids were able to be rightfully removed from a horrid situation.

I think the system is flawed.. overworked, underpaid and very much burnt out. So yes.. some don't care, they cannot look into every single claim there just isnt enough resources. Its sad but true... but I think the overall intent is meant for good... but like all things sometimes it doesn't always work out that way.

[Lady Lilya]

Originally Posted by Valerie

Illinois does indeed license advanced practice nurses (as does every state), including CNMs, but licensure of a CNM is not the same thing as "protecting our rights to have homebirths." To the best of my knowledge there is no state or federal law that recognizes a right to give birth at home.

Absolutely. Nothing explicit.

But a logical person would think that if a state has a valid method for licensing home birth attendants, then they expect some women to choose home births. And since the state has already somewhat addressed the issue, by creating this valid path, it could have also chosen to address the issue with a law banning home births, if they were considered to be an option that is never acceptable. Since the state has chosen to license midwives, we can infer that it has considered the safety of home births and decided to allow them.

So what I am getting at is that CPS workers are operating in an environment where this sort of logic exists, and yet many of them still react as if home birth is a horrifically abusive act.

And my main point was that if CPS workers react this way to something that there is a legal path for us to do, like home births or homeschooling or vaccine exemptions, how can we hope to protect ourselves from CPS when other things are involved, like co-sleeping, which the state hasn't taken a non-negative stance on?

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But back to the original case:

States have requirements about the conditions where CNMs can provide care, and in which situations they should transfer their clients to an OB. This is one of those cases where a state would usually say an OB is warranted. Do any states allow midwives to attend breech births?

If IL does not allow its CNMs to attend breech births, then the midwife in this case was operating outside the law. So, the parents chose to birth with a midwife who was not legal for attending their birth. So I can see where there is a gray area here that gives the authorities some justification for getting involved.

I would like to see this case fuel some legal changes.

[LiLStar]

oregon midwives are explicitly allowed to attend breech births.
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[Anastasiya]

On a good note, the baby has been breastfed since day one, and then when she was removed she was given expressed breastmilk.

And for the past almost 2 months, Ruth has been living with her grandparents and her parents get to have 8 hours a day to visit her....breastfeeding and all. Occasionally they can take her to their own home, so long as a grandparent goes along for the ride.

It sounds hopeful. Still, what an awful thing to have happen.


(The above is all public info from Facebook)

[tessie]

They had another daughter in 2009, who tragically died shortly after birth. I believe that it was as a consequence of mec aspiration. That baby was a c/s but I would imagine that having had a previous baby die, particularly if it was an attempted homebirth (I don't know if this is the case), might be enough to ping a few radars. Not that I'm suggesting that homebirth should penalised.

Someone up thread was speculating about the type of breech? The father's FB says she was a footling breech.

[Lady Lilya]

I wonder if that first baby was in the hospital its whole life.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by tessie

They had another daughter in 2009, who tragically died shortly after birth. I believe that it was as a consequence of mec aspiration. That baby was a c/s but I would imagine that having had a previous baby die, particularly if it was an attempted homebirth (I don't know if this is the case), might be enough to ping a few radars.

This is exactly why dh insisted that dd2 be a repeat c-section after Aaron died...so we didn't cause any "pings".

[turnquia]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

-----------

But back to the original case:

States have requirements about the conditions where CNMs can provide care, and in which situations they should transfer their clients to an OB. This is one of those cases where a state would usually say an OB is warranted. Do any states allow midwives to attend breech births?

If IL does not allow its CNMs to attend breech births, then the midwife in this case was operating outside the law. So, the parents chose to birth with a midwife who was not legal for attending their birth. So I can see where there is a gray area here that gives the authorities some justification for getting involved.

I would like to see this case fuel some legal changes.

If the CNM attended the homebirth anyways despite not being legally allowed to IF breechs are outside their scope of practice... then those midwives should and I"m assuming at some point will also face criminal charges and possible loss of licensure for acting outside their scope of practice.

But I feel there may be more to the story here...

[Lady Lilya]

I'm curious about it.

[smeep]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

But isn't it just like anything else - just like MWs, OBs, L&D Nurses, Lactation Consultants, Fitness Instructors (something I do part time) police officers, etc.? There are idiots, power-abusers, sadists, & clueless jerks who make life worse for people (that was my experience with 3 of the 4 hospital LCs I met with.) & there are well-intentioned, but clueless morons. Then there are really awesome people who are both well-intentioned, competent, smart, hard-working, etc. There are all types in all professions.

Although I'd imagine you could say on the whole CPS in a certain county is better than another county or state. But I would be willing to bet my house there are BOTH plenty of fantastic, and plenty of awful CPS workers & CPS departments.

I agree that there are MANY CPS workers out there who do a wonderful job and genuinely care. But, I'll say that in my city, it appears there's a MUCH larger ratio of UAVs to genuine caring CPS workers. I have been very close to a CPS case that went through several workers, and I have been semi-close to another two situations involving CPS case workers. Not a SINGLE one of these workers did anything to show genuine concern.

I'm just saying, I'm sure there are great ones out there, but I personally wouldn't call CPS on anyone to "help" them (even though CPS is supposed to be there for those who need some kind of help to keep the family together, i.e., a parent who has severe emotional/psychological issues and needs the push and assistance to get counseling, or something along those lines). I would only call if it was a matter of a child who needed OUT (i.e., severe abuse and the like). I have not been given ANY reason to trust them. And that's a very, very sad thing. I just don't feel it's worth the risk that a family who just needs help may end up ripped apart because some worker didn't want to bother with the case anymore.

[natural_mama89]

Originally Posted by LiLStar

oregon midwives are explicitly allowed to attend breech births.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm pretty sure Washinton allows midwives to attend breech births too. Not sure if it is explicity permitted, but it is not legally forbidden.