4yo destructive w/ toys and rough - now banned at neighbors, help

[Ophelia]

Our 4yo has been destructive with his toys for a while now. He can also be very intense and he is high spirited.
Examples:

-if he doesn't want to play with the train tracks anymore, he will destroy them and smash them apart
-if he decides he doesn't like a toy or item he will smash or otherwise try to destroy it. Sometimes I can catch him doing this, sometimes I can't
-sometimes I think he is rough/destroys things just for fun

He has played over at our neighbor's frequently (they have 3 kids, mainly he plays with the girl that is a bit older and the boy is younger than him). I just learned last night, after the neighbor dad was at our house watching TV with DH, that DS destroyed a baseball stand (he said it was while I was there but I honestly never saw it). DS recently was also taking a hammer and pounding on the fence, and a golf club and whacking it on the fence (between our yards, it is our fence). They didn't want their kids near it in case something went flying, and maybe they are afraid he will do that to the kids too.

DH said that when DS is playing with just the girl, he is fine but when it's 3 kids together then DS is vying to be the number one in the group and wants all the attention (I have noticed he is a leader-type and will do things to get attention, not that those two things are related but that is his personality).

So, neighbor mom told neighbor dad that DS is not allowed over there anymore unless neighbor dad is there, that is what the dad told DH last night. Also, apparently, one time DS was over there when another neighbor girl was there, and the dad said the other neighbor girl doesn't want to be around DS either I have no clue what happened, I wasn't there at the time.

Sometimes I am out in the yard with DS, sometimes I am not. I don't leave him for long periods on his own out there though, and most of the time I would go over with him to the neighbors (sans about 10 minutes after dinner while I cleaned up). I would always try and direct his behavior and have him help clean up the toys from the yard.

I'm going to buy a new baseball stand for them today and bring it over and apologize, but I don't know what to do to help get DS out of this destructive thing. It's so embarrassing, and I cannot have him wrecking his or others toys just because he feels like it. It's really tough to watch him 24/7 and we have another one due in Feb. which will make it even less so.

And I know that kids his age think the world revolves around them, does anyone know when that thinking starts to dissappear? I told DH he is going to have a hard time with that, and DH said he will get a big reality check when the baby gets here.

We can't afford any therapy right now unless absolutely necessary, since I am laid off work, we have to pay HBMW and doula and I will likely have to start paying for training for a new job soon.

I have the book The Explosive Child and will see if it says anything about destructive behavior. What else can I do, and how else can I try and smooth it over with the neighbors? Now that it is getting colder out, the kids are not outside as much anyways but obviously this needs to be resolved.

Thanks and sorry so long

[D_McG]

What are the consequences for his behavior currently? Does he show any other signs of SPD? Does he seem angry when he's doing this?

[Ophelia]

When I have caught him trying to destroy toys or other items, he does not seem tensed up to me but he may have been at times and I just don't remember. When he ask him WHY he did that, he has said he just felt like it.

Both DH and I try to use GD such as redirecting, letting him know why behavior is not acceptable and what he can do instead, giving him choices the parent can live with. The problems with us parents is that I see DH still threatning a lot, and I'm an intense yeller, which I have been trying very hard to stop. I have also gotten somewhat rough with him, like plopping him down hard or dragging him out from under a table when he wont' come out on his own and we have to go somewhere

I almost always try to give him the positive, saying what he CAN do instead of what he CAN'T do. If the negative slips out of my mouth, I will try and correct it right away with positive.

If I need DS to do something (like washing hands after potty) I will just matter of factly tell him he won't be able to touch anything until he washes his hands. Or we simply can't go somewhere or move to the next step until this or that happens. I do try to word things so it doesn't seem like I am trying to control him or boss him around. I give him choices a lot (do you want THIS or THIS).

I will remove a toy from him or remove him from situation if possible, if he cannot handle it at the time.

One time last year at a playgroup he tripped a friend on purpose, I was so embarrassed

When he gets angry/frustrated with me, I will see him tense up and clench fists/jaw and kind of shake. But I think he gets that from me as I get intense also He has threatened and tried to punch me a lot lately. He used to hit a lot, had problems at his in-home daycare being rough with other kids, I was hoping that moving him to Montessori would help, and I think it has gotten better at least at school (he is now there 2 days a week). Luckily we have taught him to say his feelings with words, so he will say I'm Getting Frustrated but it's usually while tensing up like that.

Is SPD sensory processing disorder? I can tell he can be extra sensitive about things, but I don't think it's to the point of having sensory disorder (it doesn't seem extreme), and I myself have been diagnosed with ADHD/inattentive just recently. He has a cousin with high functioning autism.

We noticed he has a problem with challenging things, if he thinks it is going to be too hard or he gets frustrated with project or toy, he doesn't try or just quits. I get that way myself so I don't know if he feels that from me or if he got it from me genetically I have read it's an ADHD trait.

Thanks!

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by Ophelia

I'm going to buy a new baseball stand for them today and bring it over and apologize, but I don't know what to do to help get DS out of this destructive thing. It's so embarrassing, and I cannot have him wrecking his or others toys just because he feels like it. It's really tough to watch him 24/7 and we have another one due in Feb. which will make it even less so.

I appreciate your sentiment here in replacing what DS destroyed but...that is HIS job. Were it me, I would buy the baseball stand but DS would pay me back by doing chores at a standard rate or by sacrificing treats until we have enough funds.

We recently did this with our chandelier. Our chandelier hangs very low and DS twirled it enough, despite knowing not to, that it fell from the ceiling. A friend came over to help me fix it and wrote a very official-looking invoice for DS. For one week we couldn't do anything that required money because the "electrician bill" had to be paid so no treats at the grocery store, no movies, no new toys, no eating out, not even any fun foods I normally buy. I made sure we had opportunities for DS to shake his head and say, "Oh, no, we can't do this because we have to pay the electrician bill..."

He also did some work around the house for me at the rate of $1/task to hurry the payment. His normal job is the trash and recycling but that week he helped vacuum, did the dishes, sorted the clothes, and anything else of which he could think.

Lastly, while I do think that you should apologize to the other parents, I also think DS should. This is a prime opportunity to explain to him that other people's things must be respected and that when you do not, you should make recompense.

[madskye]

What about talking to him about gentleness? Every day, spend a little time just talking about gentle ways to touch or take care of things. Be explicit that everyone expects him to be gentle with his toys and other peoples toys.

I also think it sounds like he is just not mature enough to play unsupervised yet. A lot of what you describe sounds like it comes from boredom or frustration. It's probably a good idea not to let him go off and play without you or dh until you see that he is getting the concept of gentle and playing nicely with others. We have the same type of situation with our neighbors (We have an only and they have 4 right across the fence. DD is over there without me all the time and their DD who is of the same age comes over here, too. But so far we've been lucky in that they all play nicely together.)

I have another thread about tantrums going--my DD is 5 and she still throws them. So I just read The Explosive Child and I really got a lot of out of it. I don't remember it talking about destructive ways I have a screamer so I wasn't looking for that!

Hang in there...the only thing you can count on is change, right?

[Gucci&Granola]

Originally Posted by Minxie

I appreciate your sentiment here in replacing what DS destroyed but...that is HIS job. Were it me, I would buy the baseball stand but DS would pay me back by doing chores at a standard rate or by sacrificing treats until we have enough funds.

Lastly, while I do think that you should apologize to the other parents, I also think DS should. This is a prime opportunity to explain to him that other people's things must be respected and that when you do not, you should make recompense.

Love this advice.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by Ophelia

The problems with us parents is that I see DH still threatning a lot, and I'm an intense yeller, which I have been trying very hard to stop. I have also gotten somewhat rough with him, like plopping him down hard or dragging him out from under a table when he wont' come out on his own and we have to go somewhere

I have done that too.

Is he getting enough sleep? Are you?

Things that have helped me to stay calm (b/c as you can probably tell. Your own behaviour inpacts his).

1 - Getting 1-1.5 hours a day alone at the gym (my kids go to the childcare there).
2 - Getting at least 7 hours sleep a night.
3 - I took a very p/t job to have my own 'thing'.
4 - I try to get out with friends at least once a month.

Things that have helped DS' behavior (he's also 4).
1 - Him getting 12 hours sleep a night.
2 - Preschool
3 - Consistent consquences. I know some people here balk at consequences but I am a big fan. You are rough with a toy. It's gone until the next day. No warnings. At 4 I don't think a warning should be necessary.
4 - Structure in the day including enough physical play. I need him TIRED at night so that he can get those 12 hours sleep.
5 - Praise and responsibility.

Basically, tightening the reigns gave me a much happier, calmer predictable little boy who needs far, far less correction than when I was more loose with everything.

I agree that he should 'pay' for the baseball thing and handle the appology. And NO unsupervised play for a while with lots of reminders why that is.

Keep us posted!

[Ophelia]

Yes, we bought a new baseball stand and will all go over there and give it to them and talk to them. I had thought about having DS help 'pay' for some of it, he's only 4 so doesn't get an allowance but not buying anything including treats for a week or two makes sense.

Now today we are still having problems. Taking things w/o asking, and he is trying to break his bike again (I already had to take it to a shop and have it fixed once because he kept throwing it down when mad at it, and the chain kept falling off). Well, just now when I was pumping up the tire on my car (we were going to bike to the park after), I saw all the grease on his hands and he said he threw it down and was trying to rip the chain off. I asked him why and he didn't know.

I don't know what else to do, so I told him he cannot touch his bike, toys, or food (like going and getting something from the fridge between meals) unless asking first. Yeah, not very realistic I know. Since I have ADHD myself I lose track easy and don't pay attention. I am so upset. It does seem to take him a loooong time to 'get' it, I know you have to continually drill it into their head. I can keep some things out of his reach, but not everything.


I don't know if he has ever gotten adequate sleep (I have to wake him up nearly every morning, we are on a schedule), and he is cutting out his afternoon nap. For a while now I wake up in the middle of the night and cannot get back to sleep. That has happened on/off through most of my life.

He hasn't gotten any good outside time since Tuesday because the weather has been crappy, so I was trying to do that today and so far it hasnt' worked. We were JUST going to go to the park for a nice long while and he started taking things and trying to wreck his bike. I could tell he needs outside time because he was getting pretty antsy yesterday.

He has been good off and on. Sometimes fine, then other times it totally presses my buttons and I feel like I run out of options. He is at school and Grandma's 4 days a week, so it's not like I have him 24/7.

He has also started the 'hate' thing. 'i hate you'! then when he realizes he cannot get what he wants after saying it, he tries to take it back. The only thing I can think of to say when he says that is 'that is not a very nice thing to say'.

[ImaSophie]

I think if he breaks something of his do not replace it (like his bike) and I agree that if he breaks others peoples things he should have to "pay" for them in some sort of way.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I tend to agree with you O that 4 is too young to pay for things. Though if you are looking for a consequence, not being able to play at the neighbors and having broken toys seems like pretty adequate ones.

If I found myself in your situation I think I would try to drastically simplify my home life as much as possible. I know you said you're on a schedule but is there anything that can "go"? It just sounds like everyone is stressed!!! We all get there from time to time.

4 was probably the hardest age for me to deal with. I find that age to be fully able to "push buttons" as you say but with very little ability to empathize and reason.

Does your son by any chance like things like Legos?

[Ophelia]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

If I found myself in your situation I think I would try to drastically simplify my home life as much as possible. I know you said you're on a schedule but is there anything that can "go"? It just sounds like everyone is stressed!!! We all get there from time to time.


Does your son by any chance like things like Legos?

Well, I got laid off from an extremely stressful job in April, and even though I am home now, I still have lots to do and try to get the majority done on the 4 weekdays I don't have DS at home. When I mentioned schedule, that is basically for nighttime and wakeup time (wakeup time is 7am or shortly after). There are certain weeknights we do things like go to library and a playgroup.

Yes, he has quite a few toys, games and other things to do, not really Legos but some bigger lego type blocks and other things he can put together. He will easily play by himself and I will play games and stuff with him also.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by Ophelia

I almost always try to give him the positive, saying what he CAN do instead of what he CAN'T do. If the negative slips out of my mouth, I will try and correct it right away with positive...

Can I ask why? There is nothing wrong with telling a child they may NOT destroy their bike, they may NOT break their toys and they may NOT beat the fence.

Maybe you are giving him too much of "You may do this and you may do that," when he really just needs to hear he is not allowed to do the things he is doing.

[phathui5]

It's ok, with unacceptable behaviors, to tell children that what they're doing is unacceptable.

[chfriend]

Book recommendations:

The Out of Sync Child
The Out of Sync Child has Fun
Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen

It seems like what to do about it after isn't as important right now as figuring out *why* it's happening and what the best way to help with that is.

[Ophelia]

Oh, yes we definitely tell him when he cannot destroy things...I meant for example, instead of telling them NOT to run in the street, you tell them to STAY in the driveway. And stop him immediately, and try and give him an alternative to do.

Yes, the roughness, etc. has been going on since he was 2-3 years old, off and on, so I dont' know if it's something he just has to 'grow out of' and he will be limited in activity/friends until then, or if we are doing something wrong well, i know my yelling isn't helping

I did read Playful Parenting a while back, it was great but I have a really hard time applying what I read. I will see if my library has the other books

[Super~Single~Mama]

When my 20mo tries to break things, they get put up out of reach, and he gets told that when he tries to break them they have to go away.

And if he broke things I wouldn't replace them (I don't have the money anyway, so it wouldn't even be possible). If he was as rough with things as your ds sounds, I don't think he'd have any toys.

And, I think that if he's going to go play with the neighbors, you or your dh need to go with him until he's a bit older.

[ewe+lamb]

We're not ones for lots of toys etc, we live in a small city appartment so just not possible, all toys are put away, apart from a few things, if the kids want toys they have to tidy away the things they have out before getting anything else - we've been doing this since a very young age with both kids, if toys are damaged or broken, if it was an accident they can get mended - if it was intentional then that's something different completely. The kids have to have minimum 2 hours exercise after pre-school and school, otherwise it's just a nightmare, if it's rainy we have a trampoline - small one that they can use and now they are just getting into the wii - they are just 5 and 8. The reason I mention the toys is that I wonder if there are just too many for him and its overload - does that say anything to you, you know can't see the wood from the trees type thing.

I liked the response that was saying that you need to get your ds to 'pay' back the basketball stand - did he understand the concept that he won't be getting treats for a week?

Kids generally go through stages - my son was a biter, others push, kick, hit etc - goodness me that was an awful time, it may just be that this is his 'stage' although I can understand - I really can - how difficult this can be - but there is light at the end of the tunnel - it won't last for ever!

The one thing that stands out to me is when you asked why he was trying to break his bike - he didn't know why - I would keep an eye on this sort of thing, see if you can resolve through this and get him to be more vocal about his feelings and emotions and if that doesn't work I would see if I could talk to someone. When our ds was going through the biting stage, and even with our dd, we drew out faces with different expressions on them - abit like the emoticons and when they couldn't vocalise what they wanted to say they could at least point to the picture that resembled it the most, we used paper plates - it really worked with their frustrations - because our kids are bilingual their initial speach development was behind their other monolingual peers so it can work for the 'older' child - or certainly with kids of the age that you are dealing with.

Good luck I'm sure it'll all resolve - and lots of s in the meantime!!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Ophelia

Well, I got laid off from an extremely stressful job in April, and even though I am home now, I still have lots to do and try to get the majority done on the 4 weekdays I don't have DS at home.

When DC was your son's age we went through a few phases that I would call or think of as "crisis mode". It was those times where things just felt like they were spiraling.

What worked well for us was to really get back to basics. I would simplify our life. Food would get simple, I would turn down invitations to events, I would get the house in order, stock up on good food, do all the laundry and do other things to ease the stress on myself.

I might make a new space for DC to play. Maybe try Legos. They are expensive...but maybe you could borrow some for a few weeks to see if DC likes them. They are indestructible and the idea of taking the time to build something meaningful that he may impulsively destroy may be an interesting experiment for him. Give him a spot in the living room for a while. Change it up to the point that everyone notices that "things are different around here".

My feeling from your posts is that a clean slate may be good for everyone.

I might also talk to the people close to your DS. Definitely talk to your mom and the neighbors. I think it can take the pressure off of you if you let people know that you see what's going on and are dealing with it. Every parent has been where you are in one way or another.

I also agree with CHFRIEND that trying to figure the *why* of all of this is happening is very important...much more so than dealing with the problem right now. Mostly because I don't think you can really effectively deal with it *in the long term* without figuring out why it's happening.

One other trick that worked really well for us was to cycle toys. Find a box (or two or three depending on how many toys your DS has) and go through all his toys and remove the ones DS has not been interested in or is being destructive with. Put that in a closet for a while. Repeat in a month or so but put out some old toys and put some neglected ones back in the box. This is magic! It extends the interest and life of toys, helps keep things manageable and makes the "need" for new toys unnecessary.

I'll also reiterate the minority opinion that 4 is too young to pay for mistakes. If there is a way to help repair the thing that may be a good compromise but I don't think any of the ways suggested that he can help pay for the item will be understood by him in a meaningful way.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

I'll also reiterate the minority opinion that 4 is too young to pay for mistakes. If there is a way to help repair the thing that may be a good compromise but I don't think any of the ways suggested that he can help pay for the item will be understood by him in a meaningful way.

I liked most of your ideas WRT to the Legos and cycling toys; we also do these. I disagree with your contention that four is too young to pay for mistakes for a couple of reasons.

One, this wasn't a mistake. The OP said that he is smashing and destroying things, sometimes just for fun.

Two, these aren't his things. My son knows that he can destroy his own stuff if he wants but I will not replace it if he does. Obviously accidents are a different matter but...it still costs money.

Leading to point Three: actions have consequences. He chose to destroy the baseball stand. Having him pay for it, in some way, shows that his action has a legitimate and natural consequence. If you destroy someone else's things, you must replace them.

As I am the one who posted the original idea and example, I went to my son and asked him:

"Did you understand why we gave up treats when the chandelier was broken?"

"Because I broke the chandelier and I had to pay the electrician bill."

"Do you understand that the electrician had to be paid?"

"Yes, ma'am."

"Why did we pay the electrician?"

"Because I broke the chandelier."

"If you hadn't broke the chandelier, would we have had to pay the electrician?"

"No...and then I got stuffed in the stocks and had things thrown at me..."
(We're in a big knight phase over here; obviously I did not put him into the stocks but we just watched a show about that last night.)

"Are you going to break the chandelier again?"

"No...and I'm never going to get stuffed in the stocks again and get things thrown at me."


So...he seems to have understood what happened and the consequences of his action; at the very least, he's not destroyed anything else and certainly hasn't spun the chandelier again. It might not work for everyone but to me, it certainly seems a logical consequence that my son was easily able to understand.

We were able to use money at our house because my son understands that things cost money. The OP might have to use some other currency such as the idea of equating hours someone else suggested. The idea is not to get hung up on the method; the idea is that his actions have consequences and someone is paying for them. He is at an age where he should be capable of understanding that actions have consequences AND that he has responsibility for his actions.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

It certainly could be just a difference in opinion or in our kids. I don't think my kid, at 4, would have been able to make the connection in meaningful way. Besides, the OP said there isn't much for her kid to give up by way of helping to pay. The suggestion to help pay was brought up several time - so I felt that that idea was given a lot of attention and I just wanted to offer a difference of opinion. That's all