Removing hats for national anthem (Canadian)

[katiecat]

I am not sure if the rules/traditions are different in the US...

At ds's (public) school O Canada is sung outside in the yard once the students are lined up to go inside and just prior to going inside and the rule is for everyone to remove their hats. I am trying to remember if this includes winter toques or not...but anyway, of course there is the occasional child who does not want to. DS is fine with it but has asked why we do it and after mumbling something about respect, etc. I looked it up and found that on the Canadian Heritage (government) website it says "It is traditional for civilian men to take off their hats during the playing of the national anthem. Women as well as children do not remove their hats on such occasions." http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/anthem-eng.cfm
near the bottom under "Etiquette during the playing of the national anthem".

I'm not trying to make an issue out of this...I was just wondering is it a rule to remove hats during the national anthem at other Canadian schools? Am I reading the information on the website wrong? Do you think that the rule at ds's school is just a matter of the staff being misinformed? (Or maybe it's me who is!).

[GuildJenn]

That's always been my understanding. I've watched people take their hats off at sports events too.

Our school didn't allow hats on during class though and we sang in class, so. I'm assuming toques wouldn't count in winter, or else they will sing inside then.

[ollyoxenfree]

This is a fairly good explanation of the roots of the custom of removing headgear as a sign of respect, at least in cultures with European roots. A Knight would remove his helmet visor to reveal his face and show his respect.

[CarrieMF]

Here the kids go inside, they don't line up & do any morning activities like that outside. Do they do this when it's -30???

so yeah all hats would be removed as they're inside. I would encourage my child to remove the hat, it's good practice for when he's older. At our school hats are removed once they're inside the school, this goes for both girls and boys whether it's a cap, toque or an accessory hat.

[ollyoxenfree]

Like many other things, I learned about at etiquette from reading. Here's an excerpt about hat etiquette, from one of my favourite books (Canadian!), The Blue Castle, written by L.M. Montgomery in the 1920's. The protagonist, Valancy, is a timid old maid (at 29!), who has been bullied by family and others her whole life:

Valancy was afraid of Dr.Stalling--had been afraid of him ever since the Sunday, twenty-three years before, when he had first come to St. Albans'. Valancy
had been too late for Sunday School that day and she had gone into the church timidly and sat in their pew. No one else was in the church--nobody except the new rector, Dr. Stalling. Dr. Stalling stood up in front of the choir door, beckoned to her, and said
sternly, "Little boy, come up here."

Valancy had stared around her. There was no little boy--there was no one in all the huge church but herself. This strange man with the blue glasses couldn't mean her. She was not a boy.

"Little boy," repeated Dr. Stalling, more sternly still, shaking his forefinger fiercely at her, "come up here at once!"

Valancy arose as if hypnotised and walked up the aisle. She was too terrified to do anything else. What dreadful thing was going to happen to her? What HAD happened to her? Had she actually turned into a boy? She came to a stop in front of Dr. Stalling.
Dr. Stalling shook his forefinger--such a long, knuckly forefinger--at her and said:

"Little boy, take off your hat."

Valancy took off her hat. She had a scrawny little pigtail hanging down her back, but Dr. Stalling was shortsighted and did not perceive it.

"Little boy, go back to your seat and ALWAYS take off your hat in church. REMEMBER!"

Valancy went back to her seat carrying her hat like an automaton. Presently her mother came in.

"Doss," said Mrs. Stirling, "what do you mean by taking off your hat? Put it on instantly!"

Valancy put it on instantly. She was cold with fear lest Dr. Stalling should immediately summon her up front again. She would have to go, of course--it never occurred to her that one could disobey the rector--and the church was full of people now. Oh,
what would she do if that horrible, stabbing forefinger were shaken at her again before all those people? Valancy sat through the whole service in an agony of dread and was sick for a week afterwards. Nobody knew why--Mrs. Frederick again bemoaned herself
of her delicate child.

Dr. Stalling found out his mistake and laughed over it to Valancy--who did not laugh. She never got over her dread of Dr. Stalling.

It's a wonderful book about learning to enjoy life, as well as a good romance novel!

[Lisa1970]

I think teaching proper manners and etiquette is great and am glad the school is doing it. That is so much better than the free for all we often see in the schools near where I live. I hope this helps.

[katiecat]

I think they have the no hats rule inside the school though on Monday mornings there is an assembly of the whole school in the front foyer and the children are not told to remove their hats until they stand to sing.

I'm curious whether the removing the hats to sing outside is a school or board rule because the way I am reading the website it very specifically says that women and children do not remove hats. It's not something that matters to me but I do get how people think it shows respect. I told ds the explanation about knights removing their headgear - a good example for boys especially!

Love the except from The Blue Castle - thanks!

CarrieMF I believe the board guideline is the children don't go out for recess if it's -28 or colder with or without windchill. Most mornings the children can be dropped off as early as 7:45 with school starting at 8am but on days when it is that cold they go directly indoors. DS is in grade 3 and I really can't remember right now what has been done in previous years about winter hats...I will pay attention this year. But already the mornings can be quite cold and I have heard children who don't want to take off their hats give the reason of their head being cold. Given that my ds is often shivering in the mornings before going in I can see this.

Not a big deal...I was just curious!

[Annie Mac]

Originally Posted by katiecat

I'm curious whether the removing the hats to sing outside is a school or board rule because the way I am reading the website it very specifically says that women and children do not remove hats.

Interesting about the children not removing their hats. Women makes sense, though, when you think back to the days where hats were fancy and had to be pinned to your hair to stay on. Simply a practicality issue. But now, when men and women are both wearing baseball caps (why why why?) I don't see the reason for the gender difference.

Personally, I like the no hat indoors rule, but I have notice it is observed less and less. I'm not a big hat fan in general, but that's just because they look kind of sloppy (see above opinion on the ubiquitous baseball cap) and it's hard to see people's faces. I feel the same about sunglasses. They should be removed indoors, especially when you're talking to someone. However, outside in Ontario during the cold months? I wouldn't to take my hat off either!

[Annie Mac]

Hats aside, I'm impressed that your child's public school is having them sing the anthem every day. I recall singing it ONLY for assemblies, and then later, not even that. Canadians aren't really anthem singers. Truth be told, I am hard pressed to remember all the lyrics. Sad, isn't it?

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by Annie Mac

Hats aside, I'm impressed that your child's public school is having them sing the anthem every day. I recall singing it ONLY for assemblies, and then later, not even that. Canadians aren't really anthem singers. Truth be told, I am hard pressed to remember all the lyrics. Sad, isn't it?

I went to first and second grade in BC, and remember singing O'Canada every morning. I loved it.

I don't know about removing hats for it, though. Here in the US hats are definitely removed for the National Anthem, although my kids don't sing it in school, but rather at baseball games, etc. I assume it would come off for the Pledge of Allegiance, but they don't say that on a regular basis at their school either. (Of course, they also don't really wears hats to school!)

[Amatullah0]

Originally Posted by Annie Mac

Interesting about the children not removing their hats. Women makes sense, though, when you think back to the days where hats were fancy and had to be pinned to your hair to stay on. Simply a practicality issue. But now, when men and women are both wearing baseball caps (why why why?) I don't see the reason for the gender difference.

Personally, I like the no hat indoors rule, but I have notice it is observed less and less. I'm not a big hat fan in general, but that's just because they look kind of sloppy (see above opinion on the ubiquitous baseball cap) and it's hard to see people's faces. I feel the same about sunglasses. They should be removed indoors, especially when you're talking to someone. However, outside in Ontario during the cold months? I wouldn't to take my hat off either!

I never thought about the "hats being pinned on" issue. TBH, I didn't even realize that they probably did pin their hats onto their hair/head. But I do know that for women, hat wearing=modesty. There was a time where no women would dare remove her hat in church(see leviticus, in the bible). I assume that is what was meant in the above book-reference.

I would suppose that for men, it is an issue of respect, but for children these types of rules don't exist, similar to how we might consider it appropriate for our neighbor's toddlers to run around the backyard naked, but we would think it odd to see our adult neighbor out gardening in the nude.

I wanted to add to the part of men removing their hats in respect. It seems as though this is not the case throughout the world, in Islam, and perhaps in Judaism, it is considered respectful for men to cover the tops of their heads.

[kriket]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

This is a fairly good explanation of the roots of the custom of removing headgear as a sign of respect, at least in cultures with European roots. A Knight would remove his helmet visor to reveal his face and show his respect.

This exactly! We had something similar in my HS (in the States) one of the classmates was undergoing chemo, and wore a hat. The well meaning teacher told him he HAD to remove his hat, which he was uncomfortable with becauseof the chemo.

I did a report in that class about hat removing

It's also a sign of humility. Many men (like my DH) wear a hat ALL.THE.TIME for him to remove his hat, it's "bringing him down a notch" and a sign of respect.

DH will remove his hat for O'Canada But I haven't seen him participate in the Pledge for YEARS. That's a whole different sack of chestnuts.

[kriket]

[QUOTE=Amatullah0;15884781] we might consider it appropriate for our neighbor's toddlers to run around the backyard naked, but we would think it odd to see our adult neighbor out gardening in the nude. QUOTE]

[katiecat]

They not only sing it - half the time they sing in English, the other half in French and many teachers and students also sign while they sing.

I also think that differentiating between genders is outdated. They don't at the school.

I also agree that some people have valid reasons for not removing a hat (I tend to think people have a reason for everything they do whether I agree with it or not - it makes sense to them). I find it very disconcerting to talk to someone with sunglasses on but figure they have a reason for not removing them (indoors).

I am pretty sure we sang O Canada in elementary school while standing beside our desks. In high school they played the music over the PA system while we stood beside our desks but did not sing. Up to a certain grade/year we also sang God Save the Queen and said the Lord's Prayer. LOL

Originally Posted by Amatullah0

we might consider it appropriate for our neighbor's toddlers to run around the backyard naked, but we would think it odd to see our adult neighbor out gardening in the nude.

So funny!!

[CarrieMF]

I work in 1 school, my kids go to a different school(and a different division in a different province)

They all sing O' Canada in the morning. The version that is sung in the school I work in could do with an upgrade, it's kinda drawn out & much longer. It's the slowest rendition of O' Canada I've ever heard.lol

In my kids school on Fridays they sing it in French. Some classes will sign it too.

CarrieMF I believe the board guideline is the children don't go out for recess if it's -28 or colder with or without windchill. Most mornings the children can be dropped off as early as 7:45 with school starting at 8am but on days when it is that cold they go directly indoors.

At my kids school once they get to school they go inside & drop all their stuff off. They can be dropped off at 8, but there is no supervision until 8:30 so they have to stay inside until 8:30(this is new before they could go outside). Most kids are there right aroudn 8:30. The bell rings at 8:50 & they all pile in. The 2nd bell is at 8:55, the kids are expected to be sitting in their desks by then & O' Canada is right after that.

At the school I work at it is more complicated. Kids who walk to the school or are dropped off leave their stuff outside & then go to the playground. At 8:45 the first bell rings. This is the Kindergarten & Bus bell. Kindergarten is not part of the school division, they rent the space from our school so they're on a different schedule. The kids who are bussed to school MUST stay on the busses until that first bell rings at 8:45 & then they're dismissed from the bus but have to stay outside with the rest of the kids. Supervision on the playground starts at 8:45. At 8:50 the 2nd bell rings, this is the signal that the kids can come inside. At 8:55 the 3rd bell rings. this is SUPPOSED to be the start of the day, but 75% of the kids are still in the halls. I have no idea why they can't make it to their desks in those 5 minute but they don't.

[Momily]

As a teacher, I see school as part of the process of moving from child to adult.

That isn't to say that I see the kids in our program as "adult", of course I don't (I work with 3 and 4 year olds), but while they are in school we expect them to do things that society doesn't expect kids their age to do in other settings -- they use the bathroom associated with their gender by themselves, and sign them selves in and out on the sign in board, and sweep the floor, and wipe the tables, and zip up their own coats. We create an environment in which they can take on these adult roles and put in place the supports (like tiny brooms, and bathrooms that enter off the classrooms so I can guarantee no "strangers" are in there) so that they can be successful.

So, although I would agree that a 3 year old in a dad's arms at a baseball shouldn't be required to remove his/her hat, a 3 year old at school should.

I also think this is a rule where "child" means "small child". I consider my 11 year old a child, but I'd never think of him as being exempt from this rule as he's past the age where it would present a special hardship for him (either fine motor wise, or because he's small and delicate to the cold, or because he might be asleep at a public event).

As for women, the US ettiquette, is that if you're wearing a dressy hat, such as one might wear to church, it's actually a sign of respect (that you're dressed up) and it can stay on. Religious head coverings of any faith and gender -- kippah, or hijab, or cappe stay on as well (and the dressy hat for church comes from that history). If you're wearing the same hat a man might -- toque, or cowboy hat or baseball cap, then it comes off.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Amatullah0

I would suppose that for men, it is an issue of respect, but for children these types of rules don't exist, similar to how we might consider it appropriate for our neighbor's toddlers to run around the backyard naked, but we would think it odd to see our adult neighbor out gardening in the nude.

I think this is a great example of how expect our kids to act more grown up at school. I wouldn't think twice if my neighbor's 3 year old was naked in the sprinkler, but if one of my 3 year olds at school stripped I'd communicate to them quite clearly that we keep our clothes on at school.

[momtoS]

My daughter's school plays Oh Canada every day....and they have different versions/singers to mix it up a bit. They must take off their hats, but they are all inside.