I suspect Pertussis...lots of questions...

[AprilM]

DS is 2, and has had a persistent cough and cold symptoms now for about 6 weeks. After asking some allergy and virus related questions here on the forum, I suspect what he might have is pertussis. (Whooping cough)

He hasn't had any whooping or bouts of coughing where he can't get his breath, but from what I am reading and learning about the illness, you don't necessarily have to experience the worst.

Here are my questions, and I thank you all in advance for your thoughts:

1) If we are on week 6, has the worst passed, or can I expect his cough to get worse?

2) If this is whooping cough, is he still contagious?

3) According to some other advice on this forum in regard to treating pertussis, it is recommended to give like 375 mg of Sodium Ascorbate per 1 kilo of weight, which for my 2 year old would equal 4091 mg of SA per day! Is that too much? It just seems scary to give that much of anything to a tyke that little. Can that much SA hurt my child?

Thanks ladies. I am really scared right now, and I was just kicked out my pedi office for not signing the 'vaccine refusal form' (we don't vax) so i don't know who to turn to for my little guy.

[ameliabedelia]

I believe, if it is whooping cough, it would get worse past 6 weeks.

I'm not sure about the contagious part.

As far as SAP goes..I've read to give to bowel tolerance (not necessary a set amount).

What *I* would do is give 500 mg every hour throughout the day, until my child has diarrhea or a runny stool. I would keep track of how much I give him and (so if he gets 6 doses, that would be 3000 mg). The next day I would give that same amt. (again, divided up)

Yes, it does seem scary to give a little child that much SAP. However, I've dosed my kids up on SAP without issue. I don't think I've ever gotten 4000 mg into my 2-yo, but that is simply because I can't get my 2-yo to take anything. My older kids (that are more amenable to taking vitamins and supplements) have had that much.

Good luck. Hope your little guy feels better soon!

[AprilM]

Thanks for your reply. I always get kind of scared to give him something on a daily basis.

You said if it is whooping cough, it could get worse past weeks? You mean the worst is yet to come? He seems like he is getting better.

How long should i do the SA on a daily basis?

[mum4boys]

My oldest has had whopping cough twice exactly one year apart. Weeks 10-12 was always the worst for him.

Just to be reassuring. I have a child who has an immune system is compromised...we go through periods where a common cold could kill him. No one else in our house has ever gotten the whopping cough.

[mamafish9]

We had whooping cough earlier this spring. Normally it hits its worst about 2 weeks after they start coughing. The cough can linger seemingly forever (3 months here) and it comes back any time they get a cold (but only for the normal cold duration).

You are no longer contagious 2-3 weeks after you start coughing, so your son is in the clear there.

I'd guess that you're pretty late in the process for any acute treatment to be particularly effective, and it doesn't sound like you have a particularly bad case. I'd focus on basic nutritional supports (being sick can wipe out minerals, B vitamins, antioxidants (C & E), and give lots of A & D.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by AprilM

Here are my questions, and I thank you all in advance for your thoughts:

1) If we are on week 6, has the worst passed, or can I expect his cough to get worse?

2) If this is whooping cough, is he still contagious?

3) According to some other advice on this forum in regard to treating pertussis, it is recommended to give like 375 mg of Sodium Ascorbate per 1 kilo of weight, which for my 2 year old would equal 4091 mg of SA per day! Is that too much? It just seems scary to give that much of anything to a tyke that little. Can that much SA hurt my child?

Thanks ladies. I am really scared right now, and I was just kicked out my pedi office for not signing the 'vaccine refusal form' (we don't vax) so i don't know who to turn to for my little guy.

on the doctor issue. Bad timing, but try to think of it as a long-term positive--they're clearly not a good fit for you. I figure anyone who treats patients like that would not be helpful with the type of questions I would ask.

#1--First, we had a prolonged coughing illness with vomiting (only DD, DS didn't vomit but he did cough) last fall--didn't test to make sure of what it was, but it had quite a few features that were unlike anything I've dealt with before and seem consistent with WC. So that's where my perspective is coming from.

For our illness, the first few weeks of coughing were the worst, and it took about 1.5 weeks of coughing with vomiting for me to twig to this not being a normal illness, then I stepped up the SA. My kids also ran low on zinc but they tend to be borderline low usually. A little supplementation, at least the amount in a good multi, wouldn't hurt.

#2--Concur with the PP, you should be long past the contagious part.

#3--I had to give a lot more SA than that to my kids. Short-term I don't know of negatives, long-term there are some potential negatives (problems processing oxalates, pretty rare but non-zero). I think the downside of _not_ giving the SA during illnesses is greater than the downside of giving SA. I'd use that dosage as a starting point and then be willing to go up.

And I'd up the nutrients mentioned by the PP. My DD also had a rough coughing illness a few months afterward--I think it was a fairly normal illness but she coughed a lot harder and longer, I actually took her to our DO for adjustment because I was getting concerned she wasn't dealing with that illness well. Lingering susceptibility to other coughing illnesses is not uncommon after WC, so keep that in mind for the winter/spring.

[AprilM]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

on the doctor issue. Bad timing, but try to think of it as a long-term positive--they're clearly not a good fit for you. I figure anyone who treats patients like that would not be helpful with the type of questions I would ask.

#1--First, we had a prolonged coughing illness with vomiting (only DD, DS didn't vomit but he did cough) last fall--didn't test to make sure of what it was, but it had quite a few features that were unlike anything I've dealt with before and seem consistent with WC. So that's where my perspective is coming from.

For our illness, the first few weeks of coughing were the worst, and it took about 1.5 weeks of coughing with vomiting for me to twig to this not being a normal illness, then I stepped up the SA. My kids also ran low on zinc but they tend to be borderline low usually. A little supplementation, at least the amount in a good multi, wouldn't hurt.

#2--Concur with the PP, you should be long past the contagious part.

#3--I had to give a lot more SA than that to my kids. Short-term I don't know of negatives, long-term there are some potential negatives (problems processing oxalates, pretty rare but non-zero). I think the downside of _not_ giving the SA during illnesses is greater than the downside of giving SA. I'd use that dosage as a starting point and then be willing to go up.

And I'd up the nutrients mentioned by the PP. My DD also had a rough coughing illness a few months afterward--I think it was a fairly normal illness but she coughed a lot harder and longer, I actually took her to our DO for adjustment because I was getting concerned she wasn't dealing with that illness well. Lingering susceptibility to other coughing illnesses is not uncommon after WC, so keep that in mind for the winter/spring.

Thanks Tanyalynn, I really appreciate your input. I too, like you, didn't realize at first what we were up against. Initially, I thought it was just a cold or a virus, then I thought it was allergies, but now I am almost 100% sure it was pertussis. I am kind of glad the revelation didn't come until after the critical part of the illness because I probably would have been freaking out. Especially since we have no pedi. (which is a whole nother discussion for a different board....grrrr)

He is doing alot better now. Only a few coughs throughout the day...usually in the morning upon waking, and still a bit of a runny nose. He is eating much better and also has more energy. I finally feel like we are getting our little guy back! Praise God!

How long would you recommend I give SA on a daily basis? And should I keep it at bowel tolerance?

Thank you again everyone for your support, I swear I learn WAY more about fighting sickness and staying healthy from the moms here on Mothering than I ever did with any of my doctors!

[tanyalynn]

If his cough has decreased that much--I hadn't realized it was _that_ much decrease--then you may not get a lot of benefit from the SA.

If you want to try it, maybe start at 500 mg 4x/day and go up from there, see if you see a change? I don't know if his vitC need will be elevated anymore though (in which case 500mg doses would be too high--not dangerous, just a bit of diarrhea for a couple hours), at some point at the end of WC the amount of vitC needed will start decreasing. My kids almost always have a very high bowel tolerance so I didn't see the decrease as clearly as I expect most would.

If it helps, keep it up for a few weeks? Best guess, unless you see a big drop in vitC need before then. It's called a 100-day cough, so you're about halfway through that now--if you see an improvement, you could definitely keep it up through that period. I don't see a downside except for convenience.

[lightheartedmom]

Originally Posted by AprilM

DS is 2, and has had a persistent cough and cold symptoms now for about 6 weeks. After asking some allergy and virus related questions here on the forum, I suspect what he might have is pertussis. (Whooping cough)

He hasn't had any whooping or bouts of coughing where he can't get his breath, but from what I am reading and learning about the illness, you don't necessarily have to experience the worst.

Here are my questions, and I thank you all in advance for your thoughts:

1) If we are on week 6, has the worst passed, or can I expect his cough to get worse?

2) If this is whooping cough, is he still contagious?

3) According to some other advice on this forum in regard to treating pertussis, it is recommended to give like 375 mg of Sodium Ascorbate per 1 kilo of weight, which for my 2 year old would equal 4091 mg of SA per day! Is that too much? It just seems scary to give that much of anything to a tyke that little. Can that much SA hurt my child?

Thanks ladies. I am really scared right now, and I was just kicked out my pedi office for not signing the 'vaccine refusal form' (we don't vax) so i don't know who to turn to for my little guy.

I don't know the answers to your questions (so helpful, right? ;-)) but I just wanted to say I'm sorry about the way your dr's office treated you. I'm realizing that refusing vax and then trying to get sympathetic treatment for your children when they're ill is on par with transferring to the hospital after an attempted homebirth. It seems like pretty much, HCP's will treat you (and your kid!!!) like "you deserve it" for refusing vaccines. Really really sucks...
Close to where I live, there's a big alternative pediatric group that does home visits and naturopathic consults and is VERY crunchy-friendly, but, in addition to not taking any insurance and charging an arm and a leg per visit (or phone consult), they also charge a membership fee of like $1000/year (!!!!!!). For us, that's just completely out of the question (I know a few moms who are part of the group and love it so much, but seriously, $1000/yr just for access?!).

On the vitC thing, I am not 100% sure on this, but my understanding is that if you take too much vitC, your body will just expunge it in the urine, so it's hard to do much damage, even with excessive doses. I could be totally wrong on that though. ;-) I'm with you - I have learned WAY more about health and healing through MDC than I ever did from our pediatrician.
Good luck, hope your LO feels better soon.

[AprilM]

Originally Posted by lightheartedmom

I don't know the answers to your questions (so helpful, right? ;-)) but I just wanted to say I'm sorry about the way your dr's office treated you. I'm realizing that refusing vax and then trying to get sympathetic treatment for your children when they're ill is on par with transferring to the hospital after an attempted homebirth. It seems like pretty much, HCP's will treat you (and your kid!!!) like "you deserve it" for refusing vaccines. Really really sucks...
Close to where I live, there's a big alternative pediatric group that does home visits and naturopathic consults and is VERY crunchy-friendly, but, in addition to not taking any insurance and charging an arm and a leg per visit (or phone consult), they also charge a membership fee of like $1000/year (!!!!!!). For us, that's just completely out of the question (I know a few moms who are part of the group and love it so much, but seriously, $1000/yr just for access?!).

On the vitC thing, I am not 100% sure on this, but my understanding is that if you take too much vitC, your body will just expunge it in the urine, so it's hard to do much damage, even with excessive doses. I could be totally wrong on that though. ;-) I'm with you - I have learned WAY more about health and healing through MDC than I ever did from our pediatrician.
Good luck, hope your LO feels better soon.

Yeah. it totally sucks that the pedi's don't really pave a way for parents to make informed decisions when it comes to the choice of vaccination. (i say 'choice' loosely)

i dunno what we are going to do for care now, or where we are going to go. It's a scary place to be.

WOW to the price of that holistic pedi in your area!!! $1000 a year is steep and non covered visits to boot. So now you have to be rich to get your child safe and practical care. This whole topic makes me feel so alone....and tired.

[AprilM]

I now have a TOTAL headache

So as you all know, I have suspected Pertussis with DS for a while, and all his symptoms, even the fact that he appears to be in the 'convalescance' phase (where the coughing is dying down) of WC seem to be lining up with my suspicions. Just to be sure and rule out what the doctors thought it was (either an allergy to our new kitten or the environment or back to back viruses), I took him to a local naturopath who does something called 'muscle testing'.

Some of you may have heard it referred as Applied Kinesiology. My friend who is a chiro speaks very highly of muscle testing as well as the naturopath who does it. My aunt, on the other hand, who works at the local health food store says this woman's clients come in all the time complaining they think this woman just wants to push her own products. Anyway, I decided to give it a shot because I read you could test for allergies that way. (muscle testing)
So, I called this ND up, explained my situation, and when I asked her if we could somehow test for cat allergy, she said 'um...yes, well, we can test for parasites.' Didn't really understand her response, but figured she knew what she was talking about.

I took DS into her office, DS was acting completely normal...happy and jolly. And then something weird happened, it was the strangest thing I have ever seen DS (who is 2) do....the ND walks into the waiting room to greet us, and DS instantly turned into this mean little aggressive hateful creature and started pointing to this woman saying 'no! go away! bad!' He has NEVER reacted to ANYONE like that, or thought ANYONE was bad. He then proceeded to try to kick this woman and call her a 'bad girl'! He wouldn't sit still the entire appt, and he kept trying to destroy her little decorative knick knacks around her office. It was a horrendous unexplainable experience. I kept apologizing over and over this woman saying he has NEVER acted like this before.

(sorry this is so long)

We go back into her office, and she has me put a squirming spewing DS on my lap, while she touches his trigger points using my arm as a surrogate. She said DS would transfer energy through me, and my arm would show if he had a strength or weakness in certain areas. She said he tested strong everything except lungs, sinuses, and PARASITES!!! I was blown away that she could conclude my LO had parasites by touching the back of his head for not even an entire second and pushing my arm down. And she said she was 100% sure DS has some kind of parasite, and the reason he has been coughing like he has is because parasites lay there eggs in the lungs!!

I am mortified by this point obviously. I asked her how DS could have possibly gotten them, and she said 'hold out your arm, and I will ask'....ask who, I don't know, but she asked, and I guess my arm told her that DS got them from the new kitty. She then asked if DS had them at all before the kitty, and my arm must have again gave her an answer that said 'yes, he is prone to getting them, and when the kitty came into the house, his susceptibility dropped and he was reinfested again.

Of course, she had the remedy right there in her office 'Hanna's Fish Flukes' it's called, and it's some kind of vibration electrical water, or something like that...

Are these people psychics or something? Could DS's behavior been a reaction to something spiritual? Should I entertain her diagnosis at all? I just dropped DS's stool sample off at the pedi (who is kicking us out....we have 30 days though ...thank you oh kind pedi) and they are sending it away to a lab tonight.

Am I crazy? I think I am getting there! I am now convinced my son is infested with worms and it is literally making me ill.

[daisymommy]

RUN don't walk away from this woman and never return!

I strongly believe that children have a keen sense of the heart of people in a way that has been lost on us adults as we grow older. They are in-tune with the spiritual world, and can often read people better than adults. It's like they have a 6th sense about things. I would listen to your child (and your own gut here--lots of red flags going off here for even you). So many times we disregard our own intuition, and people tell us to, and that is the end of the beginning of losing that sensitivity that our children have.

I am not an expert in health issues, so I'm sorry I'm not of much help there. I do know that many times traditional doctors don't think someone has pertussis, so they don't check for it or test for it. They are so used to what they read about it medical books, that everyone with WC is deathly ill, and of course everyone is vaccinated so no one in *their* office could possibly have it. So they don't recognize it when it looks them in the face. They often think it's bronchitis.

Anyway, if you think it is WC, I would treat for it using immune boosters, homeopathy, and comfort measures. it's not like antibiotics cure it or would make it better at this point anyway, so a doctor wouldn't be of much use to you in the matter (in my opinion).

Hope he's on the mend soon!

[Panserbjorne]

ummm, yikes. I actually do think that muscle testing can be helpful at times, but not ever under those circumstances.

[mamafish9]

I've seen muscle testing work wonders, but this sounds utterly bogus.

Most of us have parasites, it's just certain types or too many of them that can cause a problem. So even if your son did have parasites, it's not cause for distress. Just find someone else to help you with them!

[Panserbjorne]

here's the thing. when you are muscle tested you are an active participant. now, not everyone believes in it (and it's not 100%, but more of a supportive tool) but I find when people DO believe it's because they couldn't believe how their arms just go weak. There is a noticeable difference between a yes or no answer in most cases...it's not some crazy secret psychic thing. Either your arm locks and is strong or it doesn't. You can feel when that happens. AND it can't happen legitimately when you are struggling against a non-compliant toddler.