Is this CIO?

[KellyandBean]

So I'm really needing advice and support from some other gentle minded mommies. My DD is 7 months old and has had problems with being VERY hard to soothe since birth. She was a colic baby and from what i understand is probably high needs. She has what i think is unusual behavior when falling asleep. She will always cries no matter what we do. Even while we try to rock her she will cry and cry and scream and just get hysterical and arch her back and try to throw herself off my lap. She will on a very rare occasion go to sleep in my arms on the rocker without a lot of fight but it is a rare thing. We have seriously tried everything from trying to co-sleep her down, walk her down, nurse her down, bounce her down, putting her down before she is overtired, singing her to sleep. EVERYTHING. The only thing that puts her to sleep without fail and no crying is the car seat/stroller (same thing). Winter is coming though and there are going to be days when i cannot take her for walks or car rides. We live in Maine after all.

I now myself frequently taking walks just because i don't want to have to deal with a tantrum for that nap. My husband says this is foolish and she just needs to learn how to go to sleep on her own. We literally have earplugs next to her rocker. My husband thinks we really need to do some kind of sleep training. I know he is probably right but I'm so worried that she will feel abandoned or scared and alone and confused. I am super sensitive to her crying. Also it should be noted that she is up at least 7 times all night long and will only nurse back down to sleep. She wakes between sleep cycles. This isn't my problem though- yeah it sucks but I'm mostly just concerned about all of this screaming. I just want her to go down without tears. I always hear AP parents saying there is nothing wrong with rocking and soothing your baby to sleep and that they will grow to no longer need it but what do you do if your baby screams just as hard in your arms as she does in her crib?

I feel like she is trying to tell me that she is afraid of sleeping because she has no control over it. Either that or she just hates the feeling of being sleepy? So what we think we are going to do is next weekend i am going to leave for a while so i don't cave in like i always do and rock her and my husband is going to put her down in her crib and sit next to her and hold her hand and pet her back while she screams. I am making him promise he will pick her up and calm her if she gets to upset but i know from trying this before that she will just get super hysterical every time he sets her back down. I mean is this CIO? She wouldn't be left alone. She should be old enough to know he is there with her and he wont leave her side for more then a minuet. Would you do this? Is this not attachment parenting? Should i just keep rocking her while is screams for another 2 years or however long it takes or should we just cave and let her scream in her crib?

Please advice me i am so conflicted and confused. I feel like i have the most difficult baby in the world some days. TIA

[jennybear]

Nope. He'll be right there and it sounds like you need to try something new.

[taffywelsh]

wow, this sounds like my baby! She only screams for a couple of hours a night, but my partner has always taken care of her in just this way...although he does hold her and dance her etc also. It seems to help a lot and it allows me to get sleep; I can tell she isn't hungry when she is having a fit.
Mine is only 2 weeks old. I'm going to stop eating dairy and see if that helps. Maybe it is the climate...I live in Maine, too. I am not looking forward to winter this year.
It is hard to have a screaming baby. Tonight is my first night waiting on her while she screams; my partner has some work to do downtown. I am nervous, wish me luck...she hasn't started yet but it's in the air.
TW

[KaliShanti]

I agree with your hubby. Some babies really do need to be on their own a bit. Sounds not ap but oh well. it's all about trying what work for your babe.

[blessedwithboys]

I think there are still many things for you to try before giving up. Have you worked on your diet for possible allergens?

You might want to do some research on in-arms crying. I will respectfully say that leaving a 7mo for a weekend so that her daddy can cry her out is a sad and terrible idea. What do you do if your baby cries just as hard in your arms as in the crib? You keep holding her so that she knows she isn't alone and take deep breaths until the phase passes.

I am happy for you that you have a partner who can help you with baby-care. My HN babies were only blessed with one parent, but that parent held them while they cried. And yes, it sounds like your dh is promising to stay close by rather than leaving the room, but I can't help but wonder if you feeling on the matter might change after learning more about the benefits of in-arms crying as opposed to in-crib crying. GL!

[tzs]

we're 12 months so i'm not sure if it's the same problem (i have a hunch mine is more of a tantrum thing....we're getting to that age) but i feel you....i have a sleep-fighter that somehow i've managed to turn into a pretty good sleeper (i have no idea how it happened though so maybe i shouldn;t take credit!)
we have occasional nighttime waking tantrums with the arching back, screaming...all of that. it's a mystery. she's crying in her crib, but then she's screaming and arching her back in my arms, i put her down so then she's screaming in the crib again, pick her up, doesn't want a bottle, screaming and arching...then at some seemingly random point i'll stick her back in the crib with the bottle and she'll be fine and fall back asleep.

do you always pick her up right away? there's this article on askmoxie that is posted alot here that really helped me understand my babe when she was younger.
http://www.askmoxie.org/2006/06/babies_and_cio.html

[jsh7809]

I don't know whether it would be considered CIO, and I think you really have to make the decision about what you're comfortable with together... Trust your mama instincts and don't do anything (in either direction) that feels wrong to you.
But I wanted to say that even if you just take one night away to get some rest, that is totally valid and probably very needed. Your husband might find that he starts understanding your dilemma more - I imagine he will struggle like you do with just trying to be there for her and not holding and rocking her to sleep when she can't calm down.
My heart goes out to you - I have a difficult sleeper, and although she doesn't scream as much, it's because I have been there to comfort her at every little peep (and because I"m lucky), and even that, with little screaming, is SO exhausting. She too seems to dislike the falling asleep process. I tried letting her fuss and cry a little in her swing (I was right there next to her, trying to vocally comfort her and get her to nap) and she got so ramped up so quickly that I took her out after 5 minutes tops and it took close to an hour to calm her down enough to go to sleep.
All that is to say, I think that since you don't want to CIO (as I don't), and your feeling is that she's afraid of sleep... probably the best thing you can do is to keep comforting her as much as you're able to as she goes to sleep. I think that at 7 months old, she is still really learning to self soothe (I hope it happens soon, my DD is 5 months and JUST now starting to show signs of being able to a little bit). Veteran mamas can speak to this but I bet she'll be able to trust the sleeping process more in the coming months, and will probably do so easier if you're able to support and comfort her as she learns to.
But I know how exhausting it is, it's so hard to be patient with any of this. So get some rest and then see how you feel about it! Good luck

PS I can only type even this barely-coherently because my DH got up with the baby last night - it's been months of sleep deprivation and that is no joke! So I hope your weekend away helps you strategize or regain your patience.

[mbhf]

OP- Yes. That is CIO. Leaving a baby to cry without trying to comfort him is CIO. Honestly, though, why does it matter if it is considered CIO or not? And CIO isn't an instant (or long term) fix for sleep problems. I seriously doubt that you will leave for a night and come back to a baby that goes right to sleep when put in her crib.

It sounds to me like your baby is over tired. How much sleep does she get? Sleep begets sleep, when we're talking about babies. A baby who doesn't sleep enough is much harder to get to sleep.

Originally Posted by taffywelsh

wow, this sounds like my baby! She only screams for a couple of hours a night, but my partner has always taken care of her in just this way...although he does hold her and dance her etc also. It seems to help a lot and it allows me to get sleep; I can tell she isn't hungry when she is having a fit.
Mine is only 2 weeks old. I'm going to stop eating dairy and see if that helps. Maybe it is the climate...I live in Maine, too. I am not looking forward to winter this year.
It is hard to have a screaming baby. Tonight is my first night waiting on her while she screams; my partner has some work to do downtown. I am nervous, wish me luck...she hasn't started yet but it's in the air.
TW

A 2 week old really needs to be held and nursed nearly constantly. Babies don't just nurse for food, really food is a very small part of nursing. Leaving her with your dh for several hours while she screams is not good for her or your milk supply. And crying is a very, very late sign that she needs to nurse. She really should be nursing most of the time that she's awake and a part of the time she is sleeping. Remember that crying is the only way your baby has to communicate with you. She is completely helpless and she needs to feel safe. She absolutely does not feel safe laying by herself crying whether you/your dh are there or not. Hold her, wear her. She should be sleeping almost all of the time, and the less she sleeps the harder it will be for her to fall asleep.

[karika]

thank goodness for mbhf's post. This thread was scary before that voice of reason. Honestly, without being in your home and seeing the baby's behavior firsthand it is hard to say... but you mention the word crib a few times in your post. Baby knows you are going to put her by herself to sleep, so she resists going to sleep. No one wants to sleep alone, especially not someone that has been inside a warm comfortable womb up until recently... It is also perfectly normal for a baby to nurse much of the night, and very healthy for them. Much easier to do while co sleeping..... I suggest getting rid of the crib, stop 'trying to put the baby to sleep' and just all of you go into bedroom at a certain time and eventually drift off happily to sleep, with baby on boobie as nature intended... also if you drink caffeine, cut it out, same goes for dairy (all forms, even hidden) and soy. that is usually what makes the babies scream IMO. If you leave your baby, knowing she will be crying- it is a form of giving up... if you are burnt enough to absolutely need to do that, I would say just try to get some sleep in another room while hubby cares for her- in arms, not in a crib. that way he can bring her in and latch her on while you sleep.... but it doesn't sound like you are exhausted, just frustrated. eating certain foods really does affect so much it would amaze you... cut out dairy and soy completely, start sleeping with your baby (for naps too) and stay in bed with her the whole time to rebuild the trust... and I bet the screaming will stop.... it will also help you get enough sleep

[LessTraveledBy]

Very bad idea, IMO. Even my 5 yo would not just want someone holding her hand if she was crying.

BUT since the stroller/car seat thing works, why not try to go from there. You CAN use a stroller even in the cold... I am in Northern Europe where moms take their babies for walks and leave them out to sleep even in extreme cold weather. You do need a stroller with big enough wheels to handle the snow, though. Another thought would be to use the stroller inside, maybe just trying tro rock it back and forth or something. Or how about something else, similar enough, like a swing or hanging cradle of some sort?

BTW... There is something going on and I realize that it can be impossible or at least very hard to figure out why the baby cries so much. However, it is not a tantrum when you are talking about a baby... It might be beneficial for you both to find proper terms, especially is the daddy is at all the type that believes in punishment or thinks that babies try to manipulate their parents.

[taffywelsh]

"A 2 week old really needs to be held and nursed nearly constantly. Babies don't just nurse for food, really food is a very small part of nursing. Leaving her with your dh for several hours while she screams is not good for her or your milk supply. And crying is a very, very late sign that she needs to nurse. She really should be nursing most of the time that she's awake and a part of the time she is sleeping. Remember that crying is the only way your baby has to communicate with you. She is completely helpless and she needs to feel safe. She absolutely does not feel safe laying by herself crying whether you/your dh are there or not. Hold her, wear her. She should be sleeping almost all of the time, and the less she sleeps the harder it will be for her to fall asleep."

you know what, I try to nurse her and sometimes she refuses it. I always nurse her as much as she wants, all day and all night. We make her feel safe and I offer nursing at every possible interval. We do not leave her lying there all alone to cry, ever.
Sometimes babies cry, believe it or not.
Sorry to reply to this comment in your section OP but people are so sanctimonious here sometimes! Frustrating when people tell you that you are not doing a good job...when they have no idea what they are even referring to. I'm sure you can relate.

[PatioGardener]

Not sure if you have access to facebook, but if you do, here is a great page by a pediatrician on "The Normal Newborn and Why Breastmilk is Not Food". Not quite applicable to the OP with her 7 month old, but maybe of interest to taffywelsh and others with new LOs who read this thread.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Frankl...d=162106522337

[mbhf]

Originally Posted by taffywelsh

"A 2 week old really needs to be held and nursed nearly constantly. Babies don't just nurse for food, really food is a very small part of nursing. Leaving her with your dh for several hours while she screams is not good for her or your milk supply. And crying is a very, very late sign that she needs to nurse. She really should be nursing most of the time that she's awake and a part of the time she is sleeping. Remember that crying is the only way your baby has to communicate with you. She is completely helpless and she needs to feel safe. She absolutely does not feel safe laying by herself crying whether you/your dh are there or not. Hold her, wear her. She should be sleeping almost all of the time, and the less she sleeps the harder it will be for her to fall asleep."

you know what, I try to nurse her and sometimes she refuses it. I always nurse her as much as she wants, all day and all night. We make her feel safe and I offer nursing at every possible interval. We do not leave her lying there all alone to cry, ever.
Sometimes babies cry, believe it or not.
Sorry to reply to this comment in your section OP but people are so sanctimonious here sometimes! Frustrating when people tell you that you are not doing a good job...when they have no idea what they are even referring to. I'm sure you can relate.

? You said- "She only screams for a couple of hours a night, but my partner has always taken care of her in just this way" and I assume that "this way" is what the OP mentioned. And how are you nursing her whenever she wants if you leave her with your dh while you sleep? I was genuinely trying to be helpful, and I apologize if I upset you. But I was just going off of what your post said. Yes, sometimes babies cry, but that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong or that you should just put your baby down and watch instead of trying to help her. There is always a reason, even if you can't figure out what it is. I have five children, including a 3 week old, and I remember being a first time mom and I try to tell people what I wish someone had told me.

[ShanaV]

OP, my thought is to try a swing. I just got the super popular rainforest fisher price one from craigslist, and I don't know why it took me so long to get it! The babies looove it! Well, I hadn't bought a swing earlier, actually, bc I thought it wasn't AP, but then I tried one out in babies r us, and the babies freaking loved it, so I was like, I'm getting' me one - or two - of these! So the lady I bought from on CL actually had two and I bought em both for $100. Sweet deal IMO. So, enough about me. (sorry!) I'd try out a swing before the, let's call it modified CIO.

[mom2happy]

Wait a sec...
Is the baby 2 weeks old or 7 months old?

[Bubblette]

Yes I would consider it CIO. It just about rips me apart when DS cries hard, and it's supposed to! Crying like that (hard and long) in a baby ( and I still consider 7 mo a baby) means something is very very wrong.

I just learned first hand how food can really affect my DS mood. We're working out some food intolerances and we just tried re-challenging corn. DS was cranky all day, fought sleep, slept poorly, cried more, was super clingy (also developed red bumps on his face and torso). It was really clear to us corn makes him uncomfortable, cranky, and interrupts his sleep a lot.

In your shoes I would try bring the baby to bed! no way would I be doing ok getting out of bed 7 times, and the reconnecting all night would help my patience with my LO when the next challenge came. I would look into food allergies, and look hard! come over the the allergy forum they're great there I would try to swaddling and I would try changing up my bed time routine. Probably for us I would plop the bed on the floor go in with the baby an hour before normal bed time and calmly interact and nurse on the bed and see if she fall asleep without you trying.....

[Bubblette]

Originally Posted by taffywelsh

wow, this sounds like my baby! She only screams for a couple of hours a night, but my partner has always taken care of her in just this way...although he does hold her and dance her etc also. It seems to help a lot and it allows me to get sleep; I can tell she isn't hungry when she is having a fit.
Mine is only 2 weeks old. I'm going to stop eating dairy and see if that helps. Maybe it is the climate...I live in Maine, too. I am not looking forward to winter this year.
It is hard to have a screaming baby. Tonight is my first night waiting on her while she screams; my partner has some work to do downtown. I am nervous, wish me luck...she hasn't started yet but it's in the air.
TW

I know this isn't your thread sorry to be off topic! but I really think you should look at food allergies. You may be able to stop the colic with something as simple as cutting out dairy, or it might be something totally different.

[ErinYay]

Originally Posted by Bubblette

I know this isn't your thread sorry to be off topic! but I really think you should look at food allergies. You may be able to stop the colic with something as simple as cutting out dairy, or it might be something totally different.

Ditto, though I would be hesitant to label "hours of screaming and refusal to nurse" at 2 weeks "colic." Oversupply, overactive letdown, reflux- there are a lot of fixable things that could cause this; people hear "colic" and they think they have to just wait it out.

I would be very, very concerned about a 2-week-old who is screaming for hours and not nursing.

(Sorry, OP.)

[_betsy_]

OP - sounds JUST like my DD1, who is now 4, sleeps through the night all by herself in her own bed (well, crib in the earlier months) and has since about 18-19 months. She just NEEDED to let off steam. And she HATES to sleep. She's terrified of missing out on something, and she just doesn't LIKE to sleep. She was 17.5 months old the first time she slept for 6+ hours straight, and she was 15 months before I ditched the swaddle.

My suggestions, if you haven't tried these things already -

Room darkening shades
White noise machine
Swaddling
Nursing down - even if sometimes it means you are forced to sit with her for her entire nap because she will wake if you even THINK about putting her down.
Singing and rocking/bouncing at the same time
A pacifier if she'll take it (mine ditched hers all of her own accord at a year, we never had any problem with latch and it was a stellar option for us)

The arching her back thing does indicate some food intolerance/sensitivities, though, I think. And things she can "deal with" while upright may really be quite uncomfortable if not downright painful while laying down.

HTH!

And to the mom of the 2 MO considering CIO - PLEASE do not do this! Look into possible medical issues as a cause for all the crying.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by mbhf

OP- Yes. That is CIO. Leaving a baby to cry without trying to comfort him is CIO.

In fairness, the OP did say that daddy would be there the whole time baby screamed comforting her. Sitting beside her, holding her little hands, rubbing her back, etc. That's called "comforting" in my book.