Is this CIO? - Page 2

[Plummeting]

I would second (third, fourth, fifth?) the idea of looking into a food sensitivity, if she's arching her back a lot and still waking up that many times a night. As mentioned, the first things to cut out would usually be dairy and soy. That may not be it, but it's certainly worth a try.

As to whether or not that's CIO...Regardless of what anyone calls it, if you have to leave your house for the weekend because you can't tolerate the way your DH handles your daughter, it's probably NOT OKAY. By all means, take an evening or two if you feel overwhelmed, but don't take an evening or two just because you can't stand to be witness to what your husband is doing (or not doing) to your daughter. Besides, what do you suspect the long term outcome of ONE weekend of this will be? Do you really, truly, honestly think that will solve your problem? I haven't done it, but I can almost certainly guarantee you that it won't. My DH's sister did CIO with all of her 3 kids, and they all regularly cried at night. My neighbor did it with all 3 of hers, and I wasn't present for the first 2, but I know her 3rd one regularly cried at night, too. It seems to me that the more honest description of what happens is that it sometimes work and it often doesn't, but when it doesn't, parents just learn to ignore their kids when they cry. That's what we saw DH's sister do. They'd wake up and cry in the night and we'd tell her, only to have her say, "It's okay. She'll go back to sleep," without ever even going in to check. And she spent WEEKS doing the CIO routine with them, not two nights.

I *can* feel your pain about having a baby who doesn't want to go to sleep. My DD2 is very, very, very, very, very, very difficult to get to sleep. I honestly find it really annoying when people constantly say how it must be because they're overtired. (Sorry, whoever said that - you've just not had a baby like this, probably.) No, it's not just because they're overtired for some of these kids. Some babies fight sleep. It's nice to believe that you're a super-pro at knowing JUST the right moment to get them down to prevent crying due to exhaustion, but some kids fight sleep, no matter whether they're a little tired, not at all tired, very tired, etc. That's just what they do. My DD2 cried for 45 minutes tonight before falling asleep. (She's 6 months old, for reference.) She regularly cries for an extended time before falling asleep.

It's not even that I agree with people saying that you're supposed to try to comfort them, even when it's not working, because sometimes babies don't want to be comforted, however much other people insist that they always do. It's just that I think if you feel so bad about whatever's going on with your own daughter that you refuse to witness it, you are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. I actually HAVE put my daughter down on the bed and let her fuss until she stopped fussing and fell asleep. I did stay right with her, lie next to her, rub her back, etc., but I definitely let her cry until she was ready to sleep. She didn't feel abandoned. She wasn't crying because I stopped pacing, rocking, bouncing, nursing, jiggling, and whatever else I could think of that might soothe her. She was crying because she was tired and stressed out. That's it. Once she got it out, she fell asleep. That was actually how she fell asleep every night for a few weeks. Then that stopped working too. lol Now DH usually carries her around and she screams her head off for a while, then falls asleep within 10 minutes of him giving her back to me. She just needs to cry. I don't know why.

So I guess I'm not really helpful on whether you should or shouldn't do it. I just think that YOU clearly feel it's not right, which means it's not right for your situation. My DD got calmer and calmer as she cried. It sounds like your DD doesn't, which means it's probably a bad idea. If you search my old posts in this forum you should actually find one in which I talked about this and linked to some blog post someone put up on it.

[Plummeting]

oops double post

[jennybear]

I don't understand this thread.

The OP says her husband will be with the baby, comforting him, the entire time. He is not being left alone to cry. He will know daddy is right there. That is NOT CIO.

Why not try something different if what you're doing isn't working? Maybe the answer is co-sleeping, but maybe it's not. DD (9 months) does MUCH better when put down in her crib while being soothed vs. being rocked or nursed to sleep (which tends to amp her up). She'll fuss for a minute or two in her crib (while one of us is rubbing her back) vs. an hour or more in arms. Not all babies are the same.

[mbhf]

Originally Posted by jennybear

I don't understand this thread.

The OP says her husband will be with the baby, comforting him, the entire time. He is not being left alone to cry. He will know daddy is right there. That is NOT CIO.

Sorry, sitting next to a crib patting a screaming baby doesn't count as comforting in my book.

[jennybear]

Originally Posted by mbhf

Sorry, sitting next to a crib patting a screaming baby doesn't count as comforting in my book.

But she's doing the hysterical, arching her back, throwing herself off her parents' laps crying when in arms. Why not try putting her down and rubbing her back/talking to her to see if that WORKS? Wouldn't that be gentler if she responds better to that approach? If it doesn't work, no biggie, he just picks her up.

I'd rather my kid go to sleep with less trauma even if being in a crib is "less AP" than being in arms.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by jennybear

I don't understand this thread.

The OP says her husband will be with the baby, comforting him, the entire time. He is not being left alone to cry. He will know daddy is right there. That is NOT CIO.

I'd re-read the OP. She says she knows "from experience" that her daughter gets MORE hysterical when she gets "too upset" and someone picks her up, then puts her back down. In your post you describe a child that sounds like my DD2, who can release steam and calm down by crying in her crib. The OP's kid does not sound like that kind of kid, given that she apparently gets "too upset" requiring someone to pick her up and put her back down, which makes her more upset.

The OP is essentially upset by the fact that her daughter cries at all, and believes they're going to stop this crying by making her do it in her crib for two nights instead of in their arms for two nights. Come on, now. You know that won't work. Some babies cry themselves to sleep. They just do. That's what they do. Maybe the babies of some aboriginal tribes still living the lives they've lived for 1000 years don't do it, but in the modern, industrialized world, some babies cry themselves to sleep, no matter what anyone does. I just think this idea that she can leave the house for 2 nights and come back to a baby who magically falls asleep without crying is ridiculous. Of course that won't happen.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by jennybear

But she's doing the hysterical, arching her back, throwing herself off her parents' laps crying when in arms. Why not try putting her down and rubbing her back/talking to her to see if that WORKS? Wouldn't that be gentler if she responds better to that approach? If it doesn't work, no biggie, he just picks her up.

I'd rather my kid go to sleep with less trauma even if being in a crib is "less AP" than being in arms.

I agree with the last part, but in the OP she indicates that they've already tried this, given her description of how she knows it has played out in the past. The fact that she has to leave the house to do it suggests she believes her DH isn't really going to pick up the baby at the point when she would pick up the baby. Her instinct about HER child is telling her that he might cross a line she is unwilling to cross, so rather than not allow that to happen, she is simply deciding to turn a blind eye to it.

I have let my daughter cry on the bed, while I laid right next to her, as I already said. I didn't have to leave the house to make my husband do it because I felt so bad about it. Surely if you have multiple children you can understand that what you would feel okay about for one, you wouldn't necessarily feel okay about for another. I NEVER would've put DD1 down on the bed and let her cry while I laid with her. It wouldn't have worked and would have been wrong FOR HER. If the OP feels that badly about doing it to HER daughter, maybe that means it's not the right choice for her.

[LadyCatherine185]

my DS did the SAME THING the first 9 months or so of his life. I had to rock him and hold him while he screamed until he went to sleep. It was horrible. He did have reflux and food allergy issues, but even with those sorted through, he was STILL a sleep fighter. He simply did NOT want to go to sleep. Then miraculously around 9 months old, he stopped fighting it. It partially coincided with when he started walking.. I "weaned" him from the rocking chair, first nighttime and then for naps. At night, I nursed him in bed, and then DH walked him around until he was asleep, and would lay him down in our bed. He didn't cry! Then I started nursing him down in the bed for naps, and he would actually go to sleep peacefully. We also dropped down to one nap a day around this time (10 months old) and I think that helped a lot.

A few things that really helped us--

*white noise
*blackout curtains/pitch black room (light/noise was always too stimulating)
*making sure DS got plenty of "exersize"
*OUTSIDE TIME
*getting out of the house each morning
*gently enforcing a "routine" to our day

I suggest reading the book Sleepless in America, it has a lot of great tips for structuring your day to help maximize sleep potential.


mama, it really will get better, I promise! For my DS, once he started walking and could really wear himself out, that made a huge difference. Plus, the more verbal he became and could understand that when mama/daddy says "it's time to sleep" that meant it was time to sleep, and he was able to calm down and fall asleep. He never would have been the type to be comforted in his crib with one of us standing by.. in fact, he still needs to be cuddled to sleep. BUT-- he sleeps ALL NIGHT LONG now, and doesn't scream before falling asleep.

[KellyandBean]

Whoa I'm surprised to see how many replies i have gotten to this. Thanks everyone. I should have remembered to say that we do actually co-sleep part time- i just don't co sleep during naps or when she first goes down at night because i can't fall asleep with her if she is already in the bed so i bring her to bed later in the night when i am already really groggy and basically sleep walking- weird i know. I used to be able to nurse her down side lying but it doesn't work anymore now that she is more mobile and rolls around and gets on all fours and just will not settle. I know she doesn't have food allergies because when she had colic i actually did elimination diets to rule it out and she was on reflux meds for some time as well but it did not help any so we stopped them. All stuff i thought of back in the insane intense colic days....she was checked out by docs like 100 times and always came out fine.

I think the girl that said that if my instincts are telling me to pick her up then i shouldn't ignore them by making myself leave the apartment to have her dad put her down is probably right. I've been under a lot of pressure to do some kind of sleep training from my husband (he means well) and her doctor at one point too. I guess i just feel like when she is arching her back and throwing herself out of my lap that she doesn't want to be held anymore so i try to set her down and that usually doesn't work either. I feel frustrated and don't understand what she wants me to do with her. I guess i just question myself to much :/

Shockingly though last night i set her down in her crib after nursing and rocking and she actually feel asleep in the crib with only a few seconds of fussing and not even really crying. I held her hand and patted her bum. I'm going to try it again tonight but if she even so much as starts to cry i will pick her up and rock her like usual. I can at least give it a shot right?

Thanks again (especially for those who stood up for me!) i wish i had time to respond to everyone's replies.

[KellyandBean]

Originally Posted by taffywelsh

wow, this sounds like my baby! She only screams for a couple of hours a night, but my partner has always taken care of her in just this way...although he does hold her and dance her etc also. It seems to help a lot and it allows me to get sleep; I can tell she isn't hungry when she is having a fit.
Mine is only 2 weeks old. I'm going to stop eating dairy and see if that helps. Maybe it is the climate...I live in Maine, too. I am not looking forward to winter this year.
It is hard to have a screaming baby. Tonight is my first night waiting on her while she screams; my partner has some work to do downtown. I am nervous, wish me luck...she hasn't started yet but it's in the air.
TW

Where i Maine are you located? In the Portland area? There are so many great support groups that helped me so much in this area. I feel so bad for you because my DDs weeks 4-12 were SO hard. I don't think you are doing anything wrong by having your husband help!!!! If you offered the breast and she wasn't interested you are doing NOTHING wrong. I couldn't have survived colic with my DH's help. My DD was the SAME way but eventually she grew to find BFIng more comforting. She is a binky baby for sure because i have small nipples (basically almost flat) and she wont nurse for comfort but just for food. It is just the way she is. It kinda ticks me off when people act like BFing is a cure all for crying. Some babies enjoy BFing for comfort and want to nurse 24/67 but some just don't. You are doing a great job.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by mbhf

Sorry, sitting next to a crib patting a screaming baby doesn't count as comforting in my book.

She didn't say he would sit by and pat her. Let's not get dishonest here. She said that he would talk to her, rub her back, hold her hands, etc. Basically every form of cormforting you can do without actually picking the baby up. BECAUSE the baby is crying and screaming just as badly when she's picked up. Does this still not make sense? And if those above actions I and the OP mentioned aren't acts of "comforting", what are they exactly?

[P.J.]

I agree with the PP that it doesn't really matter what you call it, if it doesn't feel right to you then don't do it. I'm sorry your husband is pushing for something you don't feel right doing. And, he must be at the end of his rope to be thinking to do it that way.
My personal take is that being present and having physical contact, whether it's in-arms or patting the back, is comforting, and that CIO is about abandoning a baby to cry alone. Big, huge difference IMO. And, I agree with a PP that some babies do need more space and perhaps your baby actually doesn't like being held so much and would cry less with just the hand on her back.
But again, if you feel intuitively wrong about it then it probably isn't the right way to go. You could always try it one night and see. I don't think it's going to traumatize her to try it once.
Also, a PP mentioned looking into in-arms crying. There is a book called The Aware Baby by Aletha Solter. It's all about why babies cry and how it can be good for some babies some times to be allowed to cry in the loving arms of a parent. This is a somewhat taboo topic on MDC because I know some consider any crying that is not stopped CIO, but since you are not able to stop it in any case, you may be interested to look into this approach. I think in that book she takes it too far (for example she is fully against any comfort nursing or any rocking), but there's lots of good research-based info in there and you may find some comfort and good tips for your situation, since none of those things have worked anyway. My personal experience was (my baby was colicky and screamed a LOT in the first few months) that it's often right to offer comfort and help my baby feel better and stop crying. And then there are those times he needs to let off steam or stress or fear or whatever and he just cries and nothing will stop it and it just has to come out so I sit there and lovingly hold him and talk softly to him and tell him how much I love him and how sorry I am he's feeling what he is but it's okay and I'm there for him. I think with colic and in cases like yours, where the baby is just going to cry no.matter.what., at some point it becomes necessary to accept it and just be present for your child with all of your love and support and know it will pass. Easier said than done, I know. Of course, this is only after you've tried everything else and ruled out medical issues, which it sounds like you have.
and good luck mama!

[wildnewmamma]

I agree that you have to find what works for your baby AND you. That being said, sometimes you have to try something different. For our DD she doesn't necessarily like being comforted by rubbing her back/head/bottom etc...I think it annoys her, sometimes she tolerates it, but not her standard to help her fall asleep. I have also found that dad can get away with things that I cannot...so I think it is a very valid thing to try something with dad...however you have to be comfortable with what he wants to do...but I don't think it sounds like full CIO- maybe I am wrong but to me that is leaving them, providing no support. I do think the type of crying you describe seems like something isn't right, maybe it's simply like others said, not wanting to sleep. It sounds like you have tried a lot of things. Good luck and I hope you find what works for you and your family.

[bella99]

I will say what we did with my daughter when we transitioned her from our bed to the co-sleeper. It was about setting up a routine for her and not "sleep training". We didn't care at the time how often she woke up, just that there was a routine because I was heading back to work shortly after that and needed to be in bed before midnight.

I nursed her in the rocking chair. While she was drowsy, my husband took her into the bedroom, and walked her around the room until she fell asleep. Then he put her down. If she really cried, we went to her immediately. If she fussed, we gave her 5 minutes or so and if she didn't settle, went up to her. We did not pick her up if she was only fussing, we laid in the bed next to her, touching her, talking to her, etc. The first night, she fussed on and off for quite awhile before falling asleep for a good chunk of time, before she woke up to nurse. It took several nights before she settled into the routine of going down at a certain time. During those first days, she woke up multiple times during the night to nurse or sometimes just fuss, even though previous to that, she had been up two three times to nurse and then went right back to sleep. By the time we'd been doing it for several weeks, she was back to getting up twice a night and at very predictable times. I'll also reiterate that if she *really* cried, we picked her up immediately, but if she was fussing, we waited 5 minutes to let her settle and if not, went to her and comforted her without picking her up. She always spent several hours in the morning in bed with me though.

It took quite a few more months before she would nap like that though.

She's a great sleeper now. We moved her to her own room at 6 months when it became clear that us being in the room was disruptive to her (I like to say it was her father's snoring). We went through a couple of nights once she was in her own where she woke up disoriented, and we went to her and rubbed her back and talked to her without picking her up, and she did great, and started only getting up once a night to nurse at that point.

She's barely a month shy of two now, and sleeps from 8-8. Goes down with zero fuss, although if she's not quite ready to sleep, she will often talk and play in her crib before falling asleep. It's pretty funny listening to her antics over the monitor. She's even woken up the last two nights in the wee hours of the morning for 10-20 minutes talking about her new favorite toy, and then goes back to sleep.

I would never be able to listen to my child cry and cry without me doing something, but I do not think that allowing a baby to fuss (and cry a bit) while also being comforted while the parent is right there is CIO.

[lookatreestar]

if my kids were full and didn't want to nurse they would let my dh pat their backs or scratch them to sleep. however when dh would wave the white flag, that they just weren't settling i would go in and try to nurse again. i do think leaving baby with dh crying is not okay in my book, unless there is really nothing more you can do. with my dn we tried swings, swaddling, 5's, bouncing (this worked okay), walking, food elim... she is 3 now so i forget, but we tried everything! and honestly she never cried by herself. someone was always holding her. now in that situation i think it is fine for mom to have a break. but for my kids letting dad take over before a year old would not have gone over well. they just wanted me and i was fine w/ that.

[waiting2bemommy]

I haven't read all your replies so sorry if this is repetitive, but my ds was high needs as a baby and I got pretty inventive when it came to getting him to sleep.

I had a nice maclaren stroller that reclined. I used to lay him down in that, buckle him in and all.put a blanket over the entire thing to make it compeltely dark (no it doesn't smother them, I promise!) and push it back and forth really fast on our bumpy tile floor. After about 20 minutes he would be asleep. If you have some music to do it to in a rhythm that's even better. I know that sounds crazy but it has never failed me to put a baby to sleep. he was a winter baby so I culdn't alwasy take him otuside.

Also, have you tryied laying that baby down, swaddled, on her belly, with loud white noise, and patting her butt? That is how our dd goes to down. She does fuss sometimes, usually for less than 5 minutes, and then she just whimpers and rubs her face around like she is getting comfortable. I kind of pat/rock her butt and she wiggles around for a while and fusses but finally she will drift off to sleep. Tpnight it took almost an hour because she woke up twice, but that's unusual.

Finally, are you putting her to sleep in a crib? Because my dd will have nothing to do with any baby holding device. We put her to sleep on our bed which has a much more comfortable mattress imo. crib mattresses tend to be cold and kind of hard. If you must put her on one, try laying a heating pad there and removing it right before you lay her down.

Please do not leav your LO to cry it out. If you have to, let the baby stay up with you until you're ready for bed. Soemtimes the stress of trying to get a baby to sleep at a certain time can become all consuming, and on a night like that you may be better off giving up the battle for that night, and just focusing on YOU getting a good night's sleep and trying again the next day. Almost any time I have laid down in resignation with either of my kids with an available boob, a dark room and a sleepy mama, I was surprised to discover that they fell asleep quite easily (and so did I). But if I was laying down to put them to sleep? Forget it.....up for hours.

Good luck!!!

[AislinCarys]

Some babies have trouble going to sleep, and frequently fight sleep. DD is one of them. Although now, when she's over 2 1/2 years old, it is much, much easier!

For her first 8 months the push chair was it, it was the ONLY way we could get her to sleep in the daytime. Otherwise she just screamed, for hours. At night I fed her to sleep, side-lying, until she came off, then I had to stay there, next to her, but not touching.

All through the wet, windy (stormy) and cold first winter I walked her around the neighbourhood. I had a good mountain buggy, dressed warmly, and wrapped DD up in wool jerseys, wool hats, wool baby legs and thick wool blankets over and under her, as well as a rain cover and wind cover over the push chair. It was often miserable, but it worked, and I found that she REALLY needed her sleep, it just got worse if she didn't sleep on time.

It always annoys me when people say that it sounds like she's overtired - I've got that a lot, still do. Look, if I could get her to sleep earlier I would! I work very hard to get her to sleep, always has. A sleep fighter just fights sleep, weather or not she's over tired.

At 8 1/2 months, DD stopped sleeping in the push chair, for some days she didn't sleep at all in the daytime. I was desperate, then a friend lent me her Ergo, and DD went straight to sleep! From then om she slept on my back, but she did usually scream for a while, 15 min or more, and then I had to keep dancing to music the whole 2 1/2 hours, twice a day... When she was about 11 months we got the hang of breastfeeding in the Ergo, and then she started going to sleep that way. What a relief! It made my life so much easier! At around 18-19 months I could feed her to sleep in my arms, and we watched tv a lot in the middle of the day, me lying with her on the sofa. When she got closer to 2 I fed her to sleep in arms by the computer. And then I was stuck with her there for a few hours, as she always woke if I tried to get up. When she was 2 and a couple of months, I could leave her once she was asleep on a blanket on the floor, with Back playing in the background. I have to be very quiet, and she usually wakes once during a sleep and has to be fed back to sleep. At night I can leave her once she is asleep now as well, and bedtime is much quicker and smoother than it used to be.

I hated it when DD cried in the push chair and later the Ergo. But I knew that despite the discomfort, she would get the sleep she desperately needed. I mean, I could have kept her in my arms, hoping she'd settle (which I did a few times, when I wasn't well), but I would just end up with a tired baby who would.not.sleep. and who would be screaming in my arms for hours. And putting her down made it worse. And in either of the two last scenarios, I would be crying too.

My general advice is, don't do anything (to try to change things) that is so hard on you (and/or her), that you would mind very much if she started teething next week, and all the new routine went out the window. Sleep patterns change, unfortunately, whatever we try to do.

I've known too many parents who've proudly announced their baby is sleep trained, but months later the baby is still screaming him/herself to sleep for hours, while the parents just smile, and say "Oh yes, she will do that for a while. Don't worry, she'll go to sleep eventually".

And it is hard, very very hard. What you need is a hug and remember, you are the very best mother for your very, very special little one, and she is teaching you what she needs (among all the other wonderful things she'll teach you in the next few years).