When is "energy efficient" not worth it?

[HappyMommy2]

My aunt has energy efficient toilets, and in order to use them successfully, you have to flush them three times. Argh. Great idea, bad implementation.

And shower heads that have no water are just frustrating.

We have to buy a new dishwasher ... and are planning on buying energy-star everything as it breaks in our house. But I got to thinking that maybe this is one of those items that would be better if it wasn't "efficient".

I don't want to pay a bunch of money for something where I have to hand-wash the dishes first, or run the dishwasher twice each load. The type of water we have here requires jet-dry or the dishes come out nasty. I am trying vinegar now and having moderate success, though.

1. What appliances would you purposely NOT buy "energy-efficient"?

2. Do you love/hate your energy-efficient dishwasher?

Thanks mamas!!

[EFmom]

To some degree, I don't think you have much of a choice on things. To improve energy efficiency, (and also to keep down costs) many major appliances are now made differently and often with plastic parts and they just do not last. So, you are going to get a crappier product regardless of whether or not it's energy efficient.

For example, washing machines used to last many, many years. My MIL has one that is 23 years old and still working fine. We had to replace ours after 8 years, and the appliance repair guy said they seldom last that long these days.

We recently replaced a dishwasher with a more energy efficient model (Bosch). Actually, I like the new one better. It gets the dishes very clean and it's unbelievably quiet. The only thing I don't like about it is that the rack arrangement holds fewer dishes than my old one.

[SubliminalDarkness]

My parents got a Bosch dishwasher a couple of years ago, too(actually, I think it's Kenmore, but it's made by Bosch), and they love it, too. And yes! It is sooo quiet.

For us, sometimes we can't buy energy efficient because the start-up cost is just prohibitive to us.

And other things, you're right, they just don't work. Not that this is an appliance, but we don't use "eco-friendly" dishwasher detergent because I have never found one that works well.

[lifeguard]

I'm actually not so sure I would replace my front loader with another one. There just seems to be so many times when I would like to be able to dump something in the top or wash with more water or soak items all of which I can't do with the front loader.

[ChetMC]

Originally Posted by lifeguard

I'm actually not so sure I would replace my front loader with another one. There just seems to be so many times when I would like to be able to dump something in the top or wash with more water or soak items all of which I can't do with the front loader.

I think that with a lot of energy efficient appliances you need to spend big bucks to get the quality. You often need top notch engineering, higher end materials, etc to make something truly work with less water or electricity.

I have no complaints about our front loader. It's super efficient and does a good job, but it's a $2000 washing machine. The same with our old dishwasher. It was quiet, did an amazing job getting stuff clean, used way less water than it takes to fill a kitchen sink, and it cost DH $2800.

[ParisApril]

We had 2 front loading washers in 10 years and when the second one broke we bought a top loader. The appliance man said that they just don't make models that last anymore because people aren't willing to pay a lot for a washer. My MIL bought her top loader washer for approx. $800 dollars 25 years ago. She still has it and it still works great. I can buy a top loader cheaper than that today but the salesman assures me it will only last me 5 years. I almost bought an used old washer just like my MIL's because her's has lasted so long.

The HE front loaders cost us $899 each and the top loader cost $329. You can buy a lot of water for $570. The funny thing is our water bill only went up $3-5 dollars a month after the switch.

[mamadelbosque]

Yeah, I want a top-loading washing machine. Our front-loader is on its way out (it *sounds* horrible!!), and I'd really like to be able to just soak stuff... and not have to touch diapers as I put them in

We had a low-flow shower head for years and it was just fine.... when we had our bathroom replaced the guy put on a regular one an its just fine too

[sunnysandiegan]

Ecover is the best dishwasher detergent for us (of ALL brands) and it is an "eco-friendly" brand.

Our energy efficient dishwasher is a 9+ year old Kenmore and it is going strong.

We have an energy efficient top-loading washing machine. I had heard too many friends complaining about their front-loaders to want one despite the more efficient claims.

Our fridge is energy-efficient.

We generally buy energy-efficient appliances.

However, we did not get an energy-efficient hot water heater. The main issue is space available. We live in a townhome and the gas water heater goes in the center of the house in a closet. Believe me, I researched for several years on all sorts of options talking to all types of people. We were either going to have to drop from a 40 gallon down to a 30 gallon HE model or we'd be up against a LOT of modifications for any other system that may or may not have been approved by our HOA (mods involved extensive work outside our official ownership) and would cost a small fortune. The energy savings were minimal in our case due to the location of the unit and our climate.

Something similar may arise when we go to replace our furnace, also.

[newtomotherhood]

We are in the process of moving and I am so going to miss the front loader we have here, I have a feeling it is going to take me twice as long to do laundry in the top loader we will have, cause I don't think I will be able to fit nearly as much into it! I can put alot of clothes in the front loader and sometimes have to wait to do laundry cause I don't have a full load! and I agree that water saving showerheads suck!

[Delicateflower]

I buy the most water and energy efficient top-loading washer, but I will never buy a front loader. It was $5 or 600, I think, but it has a super fast spin, so drying time is reduced (either hang or dryer), and it still immerses clothes in water to really wash them well.

[Geist]

Seriously, this is why when I have my own house and have to buy a washer, I'm getting a Miele. Not to sound like an ad, but my host family in Germany has them and they're super energy efficient (both water and electricity), really get clothes clean, and are built to last. Though they're also more expensive than other front loader brands in the US, but I figure it makes sense to pay mroe if I don't have to replace it every 10 years.

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by EFmom

... To improve energy efficiency, (and also to keep down costs) many major appliances are now made differently and often with plastic parts and they just do not last. So, you are going to get a crappier product regardless of whether or not it's energy efficient....

I worked for an equipment manufacturer for a number of years. The appliance manufacturers are doing cost reduction engineering, which means replacing metal parts with plastic ones. This has nothing to do with energy efficiency, and everything to do with reducing manufacturing costs by $20 or $50 per unit. When you sell 100,000 washing machines or lawn mowers per year, the switch to plastic gears can make a lot of money. Yes, you get a crappier product then the good old days... and often one harder to repair.

These days, I work as an energy auditor (though I am home with baby right now)

Energy Star is essential for a fridge or freezer. After that, it is a good idea for other household appliances like washer, dishwasher, etc.

I have a 3-part process for new appliances. 1) Check Consumer Reports online listings (small fee if you are not a member) 2) look at energy usage 3) decide based on features. A big part of Consumer Reports is identifying brands with poor reliability (Jenn-air stoves, Sub-Zero fridges, and I believe Maytag fridges.) We started checking Consumer Reports after after a plastic-geared MTD lawnmower turn into scrap metal - days after the warranty was over.

I also strongly suggest paying more for energy efficiency with furnaces. A highly efficient condensing natural gas furnace has an outside air supply, unlike the (less expensive) 80% efficiency gas furnaces. The condensing furnace is much safer for the occupants of the home and much less likely to put carbon monoxide into the home in the case of malfunction.

[ChetMC]

Do It!

Originally Posted by Geist

Seriously, this is why when I have my own house and have to buy a washer, I'm getting a Miele. Not to sound like an ad, but my host family in Germany has them and they're super energy efficient (both water and electricity), really get clothes clean, and are built to last. Though they're also more expensive than other front loader brands in the US, but I figure it makes sense to pay mroe if I don't have to replace it every 10 years.

We have a Miele washer and dryer. They are amazing machines. I often take stuff from other people that has been washed and dried, and is supposed stained, and it comes clean in our Miele no problem. As well, our front loader Miele is the regular size (not the large capacity) and it still accommodates loads twice as big as any top loader I've used. Stuff comes out perfectly clean no matter how full you pack it.

And yes, another big reason it makes sense to invest in Miele appliances is that they are built to last so much longer than most North American models. Their washing machines are intended to last twenty five years. I'd always been told that North American manufacturers build for a ten year life span, and somebody posted here recently that some models are actually five years. A new washer every FIVE YEARS! That's a waste!

When we sold our townhouse people did not understand that we'd excluded the washer and dryer from the sale. It would seem that people expect that the washer and dryer to be included. They just didn't get that this wasn't any washer and dryer. The people we bought our new house from also could not wrap their head around the fact that we did not want the crappy washing machine that had.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by ChetMC

We have a Miele washer and dryer. They are amazing machines. I often take stuff from other people that has been washed and dried, and is supposed stained, and it comes clean in our Miele no problem. As well, our front loader Miele is the regular size (not the large capacity) and it still accommodates loads twice as big as any top loader I've used. Stuff comes out perfectly clean no matter how full you pack it.

I know! Sadly, another reason I love visiting my host family is how clean all of our clothes get while we're there. The washers in our apartment complex (we dry on a rack...not paying $1.75 for the dirt to get locked in, thanks) don't remove all the dirt from anything. Socks are gray, my son's shirts have dirt shadows on them....then after once in their washer, totally clean! I love it!

When we sold our townhouse people did not understand that we'd excluded the washer and dryer from the sale. It would seem that people expect that the washer and dryer to be included. They just didn't get that this wasn't any washer and dryer. The people we bought our new house from also could not wrap their head around the fact that we did not want the crappy washing machine that had.

We're house hunting and have the same issue. "Could you not include your washer and dryer in the sale? Cause, seriously, we don't want. We'd just have to sell it and that'd be too much of an issue."

My sister just bought a new front loader washer and dryer and I kept telling her to get a Miele, but since consumer reports showed that they were so much more expensive she went with Electrux or something like that. I hope it lasts her more than 5 years...she'll be pissed if they don't. Then again, I'll just say "should have gotten a Miele"

[velochic]

Originally Posted by EFmom

For example, washing machines used to last many, many years. My MIL has one that is 23 years old and still working fine. We had to replace ours after 8 years, and the appliance repair guy said they seldom last that long these days.

I had my washing machine for 23 (?ish) years (bought it from my dad). It was still in great shape when we gave it to an acquaintance. When dh and I got married, he had brand new w/d that we put in storage (among other things). After a period of time, we realized that it was ridiculous to have a storage unit and decided to get rid of my old w/d (it was 26 years old, after all!!!) and put in his new one from storage. This new one SUCKS! I mean, it doesn't clean well AT ALL. I wish I had kept my old one. It's still running well and cleaning well for my friend. SO, SO, SO much better made!! Never had to repair it.

OP - this is an interesting question. I think everything these days are energy efficient. At this point, to get good quality that doesn't require, for example, extra rinsing, etc. then you have to pay a lot more. The problem these days, I think, is not with energy efficiency, but finding a GOOD (often expensive) product. Energy efficient + low cost = crappy product.

[Magelet]

not specifically about energy effiecient machines (ha, nothing is energy efficient here at my dad's house. it's pre-energy star, and broken in ways that require 3x the energy they normally would.), but I hate the whole handwash dishes then put them in the machine.

We actually don't use the dish washer or the dryer for anything but the really heavy stuff (like jeans) that won't otherwise dry. It's cheaper and more efficient to do the dishes once, by hand.

[Ornery]

Just had to chime in about washing machines. My mother gave me hers when I moved out in 1995. She bought them new in 1992. She has since gone through probably 4 new energy efficient ones that break, stink, don't work well, whatever. My top loaders are old and not pretty but they really do the job. Especially seeing as she has only been washing for 2 people this whole time while we have a 5 person family.

I know she is going to be in the market for new w/d soon so I'll have to let her know about Miele.

[CookAMH]

Energy efficient appliciances to me, are a mistake waiting to happen. I would love to reduce my water bill but I want clean dishes the first time, without practially cleaning them before putting them in, and I want clean cloth diapers and clothes. I intentionally did not choose an energy efficient or water saving washer, and when it comes time to get a new dishwasher, unless our state laws change, I will not get a water saving dishwasher. I want clean stuff with the benefit that comes with technology and the expense I put into getting those machines.

[Manonash]

This is not appliances, but I will not buy compact fluorescent bulbs. The mercury in them seems like too big a hazard for me. (My MIL has broken one (in her kitchen) and my grandmother has broken one.) And, I have a strong suspicion that the ones turned into the stores here don't get recycled, but end up in the dump, or creating a hazard where they are collecting them for recycle). I'm going to look into LED bulbs I think; the last time we looked, the technology just wasn't there yet.

[tightwaderin]

I will also not buy compact flourescents again. We have had more burn out in the last 6 months than I care to replace. They sure aren't lasting at my house as they have been said to. I almost feel lied-to about compact flourescents.

We put LED strips under our cabinets and love them! Bought them much cheaper directly from the Taiwan manufacturer than the US distributor. When the prices come down on the compact ones they'll be all over my house.