Struggling with circumcision

[alicia9178]

I am pregnant with a baby boy after having 3 little girls in a row. My son who is 8 was circumcised prior to my really "knowing" better. I still however am really struggling with the decision. I worry about infections, him getting made fun of as a kiddo/teen, and to be honest I just don't know how to care for an uncircumcised penis. HELP!!!!

[bandgeek]

Well you came to the right place!

I'll lay it out plain and simple:

1) Infections are not an issue. They are no more likely in a boy than in a girl. Probably less likely actually. Girls are much more likely to get yeast infections and UTI's than boys are, whether they are circ'ed or not. If one of your little girls got an infection, what would you do? Probably antibiotics or yeast cream, whichever was appropriate. And then it would be in the past. The idea that boys with foreskins are prone to chronic infections is probably from back when parents were advised to retract to clean. This CAUSES infection. So if you do it at every diaper change, of course they are going to have recurrent infections!

2) The circ rate is around 50/50. Maybe even less than 50% are circ'ed according to recent statistics. He will be in good company. Even if he DOES get teased from time to time, does that warrant cosmetic surgery? Kids tease about EVERYTHING! My kid has bright red hair, freckles, he's super skinny, has a disabled sister, rides in a harnessed car seat at almost 6 years old, wears hand-me-down clothes, he has a foreskin, prefers "girl" toys and colors, might need glasses soon, and sometimes ends up with a funky haircut from his grandma. Any one of these things a bully kid might decide to pick on him for. But I won't change these things because he MIGHT get teased. It's a part of life and all you can do is give them the tools they need to stick up for themselves (including having you intervene if it gets really bad).

3) Taking care of it is easy. Just don't mess with it. As I already stated earlier, you do NOT retract and wash, as it causes infections. You just wipe it off like a finger.

Lastly, and I know you didn't ask about this....just consider what HE would want. He's a baby. He can't tell you. And it's a fact that it can always be done later but once it's done, can't be undone. Wouldn't you rather give him the choice than try to explain to him why you took the choice away from him? I know you already have one son who is circ'ed and so it may be hard to look at it in that way, particularly if your first son doesn't seem to care either way. Some men NEVER care either way. But sadly, there are many men who are upset that the choice was taken from them or even had their sex lives affected because of it.

[Norasmomma]

My son who is 1 is intact and really it requires no special care. We've had zero problems.

My DH told me the locker room thing is a bunch of BS and he grew up in the days where few boys were left intact, he told me never, not once did he ever hear even the meanest boy say something to the boys who were intact. Plus these days the odds are the circ'd boys are the minority, not that I'm tooting that as a reason, but the truth is more boys are intact because of parents knowing that the foreskin is a functioning part of the male genitals.

I will say that my SIL was in your same position after her oldest son, then 2 daughters. She and her husband chose to leave their youngest son intact, she researched and was more educated. He's intact while her oldest son and DH are circ'd. My DH is circ'd, but as parents WE made the choice to leave our son as nature made him, I also was very fearful of circ due to my DH having pretty severe bleeding issues with his, out of 4 boys in my DH's family he was the only one that had these issues. DH and I both agreed that was just another reason, among the facts that is unnecessary.

There are many sites dedicated to leaving future sons intact, I'm sure there are mothers on here who were in the same position as you. Hopefully they can shed some more light on this subject.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

My DH told me the locker room thing is a bunch of BS and he grew up in the days where few boys were left intact, he told me never, not once did he ever hear even the meanest boy say something to the boys who were intact.

Even my pro-circ (and now apathetic ) DH says that the teasing thing isn't a reason. No guy will admit to looking at another guy's penis long enough to notice differences! I asked if he noticed if any of the guys in basic training were intact (huge shower room situation) and he looked at me like I was crazy and said, "First of all, I wasn't looking. Second of all, even if I did look there wasn't enough time to really check things out..." I imagine a locker-room would be similar. Get in, get your business done, and get out.

[Norasmomma]

Originally Posted by AFWife

Even my pro-circ (and now apathetic ) DH says that the teasing thing isn't a reason. No guy will admit to looking at another guy's penis long enough to notice differences! I asked if he noticed if any of the guys in basic training were intact (huge shower room situation) and he looked at me like I was crazy and said, "First of all, I wasn't looking. Second of all, even if I did look there wasn't enough time to really check things out..." I imagine a locker-room would be similar. Get in, get your business done, and get out.

Well that's my point, this always is brought up as a reason. Teasing, noticing differences.....it really isn't a reason. My BIL tried to tell me that his son was circ'd because he's a B-bal coach for a 7th grade team and didn't want his son getting made fun of when he's 13....yeah that probably isn't going to happen for him being intact or not. Kids get made fun of all.the.time. for things, usually it isn't about their genitals.

[MyBoysBlue]

There is a facebook group called "Keeping Future Sons Intact" I don't really understand the decision you are having to make as I grew up in Eastern Canada where it very rarely done. I knew nothing about circumcision other that the Bible mentioned it. I was shocked and surprised when we had our first son in the hospital and the doctor asked us if we were planning to circ. DH and I both replied "NO" in shock. It's funny how different areas of the continent and the world have such different views about circumcision.

[Smokering]

I live in NZ, which has a really low circ rate. I haven't heard about ANY boys I know having infections. I wouldn't worry about it, any more than I'd worry about a baby getting infected toenails or an infected cord stump - it can happen, sure, but it's by no means expected, generally an easy fix if it happens, and definitely not a reason to pre-emptively amputate anything.

My DH, on the other hand, was circed due to UTIs. You know what? All growed up, he'd rather have had the UTIs. I wouldn't say he's angry at his parents exactly - he realises they didn't know any better - but he's not thrilled about missing the most sensitive parts of his penis. Understandably. I've had a UTI too, and I'm rather pleased no-one suggested circumcision as a remedy for me!

[alicia9178]

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

[hakunangovi]

It is really simple - It is his penis - It should be his decision. And I can tell you that precious few intact boys/men would be willing to part with their foreskin !!

[AmaraMonillas]

Originally Posted by alicia9178

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

Your job does mean you see/hear about pretty much every horrible case that occurs in your local population (that are often a result of misinformed/unfortunate actions you don't have to worry about). But we have to remember, especially when we are in positions to have unusual exposure, that anecdotal evidence should not replace statistical evidence. If your RN friends were in a peds office and believed in keeping boys intact, you would probably hear about the horrible circs-gone-wrong.

I'm sorry you aren't feeling supported IRL

[Smokering]

and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful!

Well, as a mother... yeah, I WOULD rather do it when medically necessary than not. Not that UTIs make circ medically necessary anyway, but... that's like asking "Wouldn't you rather cut off your daughter's finger now while she won't remember, than wait until it gets an infected hangnail and is SO painful?". Well, no, because like a foreskin, a finger has a PURPOSE and your daughter should be allowed to keep it as long as possible. If it (genuinely) needs to go when she's twelve or fifty or ninety, so be it, but until then, it's her body part. And you'd be surprised how many men manage to enjoy their foreskins until they die.

Also, with babies? I'm pretty sure cutting bits off them voids the warranty.

[smeep]

I'm sure everyone has covered your concerns (too lazy to read) but I just wanted to say that my DS, who will be 5 in December, is intact and we have never had one problem and, frankly, I'm more worried about kids making fun of something else than his penis...kids will always find something to make fun of, usually something that's visible on a daily basis. I've never regretted my decision and will happily leave all future boys intact so they can decide for themselves what they want when they're old enough to make a fully educated decision.

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by alicia9178

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

To the bolded, I'd counter with the fact that a newborn getting circ'd usually gets inadequate anesthesia to none at all whereas an adult could be put under to have it done. I'd also counter that a newborn will have the open wound trapped in a diaper where he is peeing and pooping whereas a man will be able to keep the wound fully clean since he has no need for a diaper. On top of that, a man will get pain medication AFTER the procedure whereas a newborn just gets some tylenol. A man will also be better able to monitor what goes on post circ to make sure he isn't bleeding to much or something else whereas a newborn can't do a thing til mom or dad change his diaper and see whats going on.

I really don't think REMEMBERING has anything to do with it. I'd want to block it out too if I had to have an EQUAL procedure to a newborn. Adults however get it a LOT easier. I'd rather not risk any possible mental and emotional affects that haven't been studied and found yet because a newborn is too little. I will say though that there are studies finding that circ'd babies react worse to routine vaccines than uncirc'd and female babies at 6 months with the theory being that they remember the pain... if I am remembering correctly.

I think if one is truly concerned for circ hurting more as an adult, then they need to be equally as certain that the newborn gets the exact same treatment as an adult man would receive. A guarantee that the penis is numbed, a wound that isn't getting pee'd or pooped on, a wound that can be monitored completely to watch for possible problems during the healing time, and good pain management after the procedure to ensure that it doesn't become extremely painful at any point so healing is easier on the newborn. If a parent doesn't do everything they can to ensure that, I think its pretty silly to be concerned about the adult remembering it at all. They aren't actually ensuring that it is easier on the baby... just that they don't remember how agonizing it might have been.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by alicia9178

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

Are those actual UTIs, or suspected UTIs? Are there really tons of UTIs happening, or is it just that every time a baby boy,who still has his foreskin, comes in with an unexplained fever the Dr orders a cath to get a clean urine sample. Looking back on those cases, do you know how often they came back positive vs how many came back negative. I would expect in most cases the patient has left the ER long before the complete lab work comes back.

I bet you see many more women come in with vaginal infections than men come in with foreskin infections. I'm sure you know that in women these infections are usually caused by over cleaning with soap or are STDs. The same is true for men.

In younger boys, many of the problems and infections are caused by premature retraction. If it was common to break apart little girls hymens, then you would probably see the same problems in little girls.

In most of the world the vast majority of men are intact. In these places, the normal development of males is understood. Most of these boys and men never ever have any trouble at all with their foreskins.

I recommend you read this article:
http://www.mothering.com/health/prot...advice-parents

[Ann-Marita]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Also, with babies? I'm pretty sure cutting bits off them voids the warranty.

OH, that is a great line!

[TanyaS]

: mama. I have a nine yo ds that I circumcised because I didn't know any better. I have had two girls since then, and have vowed to never circ another son. I wouldn't let care of an intact penis scare you. Think of it this way: I saw in your siggy you had a VBAC. What if you had been too scared of the very, very small risk of uterine rupture to even try for a VBAC? You did have a VBAC, so I assume you learned all you could about VBAC before the baby was born. Caring for an intact penis is no different. You learn as much as you can and if you have any problems, come to MDC for information. You will most likely find that caring for an intact penis is not as hard as it seems.

[BugMacGee]

Originally Posted by alicia9178

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

Hi!

I'm a NICU nurse and most of our babies are intact. I've yet to see any baby have an issue BECAUSE he was left whole. I have, however, seen many babies who require intervention, sometimes surgical, because of circ complications.

I wanted to address the pain issue. Circumcision AT ANY AGE, is extremely painful. It affects breastfeeding just at the time you're trying to get it established. No to mention an open wound in a diaper full of poo.

Being made fun of is a non issue on so many levels. My DD was made fun of because of the type of bread I used to make her sandwich!!! Kids are weird what can I say.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

[Super~Single~Mama]

I wouldn't worry about teasing. My ds is intact, and is in a daycare with 4 babies, all boys. My ds is white, one is of african descent (not african american), one is chinese, and one is indian. Not a single one of them is circ'd. And yes, I have seen each and every one of them get their dipe's changed.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by alicia9178

I guess it is just extra confusing for me because as a ER RN I have seen some infections come in and when I have discussed my conflicting feelings with some of the ladies I work with all I hear is the "horror" stories of the hugely infected penis', all the UTI's, and then I get the whole line about wouldn't you as a mother want to do it now when he will forget rather then when he is older and has a problem and it will be SO painful! I guess I just feel as though I really do not have much support IRL. None of my friends or family members have ever not circ'd thier sons. Not that I am saying just because everyone else jumped off the bride I should too, I just really want to do what is best for Riley.

You can't let the worse case scenarios sway you. Really. I'm sure there are nurses that have seen horrible cases of mastitis come in to the ER...but that shouldn't stop you from BFing. I broke numerous toes growing up...but that's no reason to cut them off!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

The thing is that because here in the USA the circ rates have been so high that Dr's have totally forgotten how to care for the intact penis ie leave it alone and let nature do what it is meant to. So when they see any irritation even if it is simple diaper rash they want to circ or yeast infections which circed boys get by the way. They just treat it with nystaten but if an intact boy gets one they go on and on about how he needs circed etc.

The greatest threat your ds will face being intact is Dr's and healthcare workers who know only how to cut and not treat. Yes you must be vigilant to prevent retraction since that is one of the top causes for problems. Some boys do get infections without being retracted but they are usually yeast or bacterial and yeast happens regardless of gender or intact status and treatment is either anti fungal or anti bacterial both very easy to apply and they work.

The vast majority of time the "problem" is normal seperation issues that some boys go through. Just like girls have cramps or get sore breast buds boys can go through that kind of thing in the form of irritation when separation starts to happen. Here is a thread on that http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=764732 your ds may never have anything like that happen but if he does then you will know what is going on and be prepared to call BS on a Dr. when he starts in on circing when you know better.

In other countries like England where they do not circ the incidence of needing to be circed later in life is around 1-10% with some of those not needing circed at all but choosing to have it done for other reasons.