Refusal to apologise

[Melanie_7773]

I've frequently seen posts in this forum advising that a child who has done something "wrong" (hurt someone or damaged property, accidentally or otherwise) should be made to apologise to the wronged party. I think it's safe to say this would also be the mainstream opinion. There doesn't seem to be a lower age limit place on this expectation. Certainly most would apply it to a four or five year old.

This seems to be fine for most kids. Parent says "Johnny, you just did X, go say you're sorry", Johnny says "sorry", and it's no big deal. (I'm not sure if Johnny learns much from it most of the time, but that's another matter.) But for some kids (and here I'm thinking of my almost 5-year-old) it really IS a big deal. In my daughter's case I believe it's mostly because she really hates to be "wrong", and an apology amounts to an admission of guilt.

I hate to consider what would happen if my daughter ever did something that warranted an apology to an adult acquaintance or, worse, a stranger. She wouldn't voluntarily apologise, of that I am certain. Actually I'm not sure there's anything I could do to force her to apologise. And even if I could coerce or otherwise threaten her into it (and I don't think I would do that, but hypothetically speaking), I think it would probably be pretty scary and possibly a bit traumatic for her.

At her age I don't really think it's worth making it into a big deal. I generally suggest that I think an apology is called for, and if she refuses (the usual case) I will apologise on her behalf. But some comments in another recent thread make me wonder about this. Not so much about my own feelings on it, but about the opinions of others.

So... what do YOU think?

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Melanie_7773

I generally suggest that I think an apology is called for, and if she refuses (the usual case) I will apologise on her behalf.

That's what I do, except that ds1 tends to be happy to apologize once prompted. But I wouldn't push it even if he didn't. Like you, I don't think that would be teaching the right lesson at all.
Depending on what he did, and who it hurt, I *do* somewhat insist that he find a way to make it up to the person, which could be apologizing, or could be something else. I say "somewhat" because I don't think I'd force this either, but I've never been put in that position to know for sure how I'd react.

[Alison's Mom]

I also suggest an apology if one of my children has done something that hurt another person, or damaged something of theirs. Most of the time, they apologize, we talk about what we could do differently next time and it's done.

Other times, often when I don't intervene quickly enough, it escalates and the two will get into a pushing and shoving match, with DS being more 'rough' than DD. When I ask them to apologize to each other, they either refuse, or say sorry, but in a mean way. When this happens, I will talk to them about what happened, how someone (or someone's feelings) got hurt, and that we need to be careful to be kind and considerate of people's feelings, etc. We talk about our own feelings, about how it's OK to be angry, frustrated, etc, but that it's not OK to hit, etc. Usually once they have calmed down and are no longer angry, and then are OK saying sorry.

Saying sorry does not necessarily mean you are guilty. Perhaps you could let your DD know that if you accidentally bumped someone on a crowded bus, you would say sorry even though it's not really your fault and certainly not something you did on purpose, but you would still apologize.

[LemonPie]

Saying sorry does not necessarily mean you are guilty.

Exactly. I think I'm in the minority here, but I do require my kids to apologize when they hurt one another, whether it was accidental or intentional. I've had some stand-offs with my 5 yo over this issue, but I just required her to stay in her room until she was ready to apologize. She spent a couple of long sessions in her room before she figured out I meant business and now I don't usually have any problem with her. Once in a while she 'checks in' to see if the boundaries are still there, and we lather, rinse, repeat (she's one of those intense, tenacious types)

I try to model the behavior to my kids too--apologizing to them if I accidentally bump them, or lose my temper, or whatever.

[nextcommercial]

I have a daycare, so they aren't my own kids, and they have their own experiences and expectations at home.

But, here, I never ASK for an apology. I simply say "You need to help make her feel better". I do expect them to help with a hug, or a wet rag or whatever needs to be done.

They always automatically, "fix" it without me saying anything now. It's really cute.

I wouldn't expect a small child to take on the responsibility of fixing it with an adult unless they knew the adult really well. But, I would apologize for them. Not in a way that makes the child feel bad, just in a way that lets the adult know that I am paying attention.

I have one girl who would never apologize. I have no idea what I'd do if I even got into a power struggle with her like that. I'm pretty sure nobody would feel better after that.

[ssh]

We've taught manners by modeling. There have been times when I suggest that an apology would be a good idea, but never anything stronger than suggest. I have apologized for her, especially when she was younger. At almost 5 she usually does apologize but sometimes she takes awhile to do it. She does hear my DH and I apologize and express sympathy often so maybe that's why she doesn't think it's a big deal.

My DDs preschool does "check and see if the other person is ok" after conflict.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I generally don't even suggest an apology. I have a personal pet peeve about apologies in general so they are just not high on my list of great things to do. What I do do (like some PPs said) is help DC make amends and help her figure out a way to make sure whatever it is doesn't happen again. I would take these two things over a verbal apology ANY DAY - in fact, I go so far to feel that an apology without these things is down right annoying!! That said, DC tends to be a kid who *does* apologize.

ETA: I think the kind of casual apology or "excuse me" with things like a bump or spilled glass is a different story. In those cases I may remind DC that people like it when you say excuse me if you bump into them.

[griffin2004]

to the OP, how does your DD feel when she's been wronged and the "wrong-doer" doesn't acknowledge and apologize? there are at least 2 parties involved in these situations, and I think it's good learning to help kids grow into that realization by acknowledging that their actions had a negative impact on another person;

people get all wigged out about "forcing" thank you's, apologies, manners, etc., but a courteous and compassionate attitude doesn't spring fully formed from kids' heads; it needs to be practiced, modeled, explained, reinforced just like everything else we teach our children

[One_Girl]

I have seen many posts on this topic and I get the impression that there aren't a lot of forced apology advocates. I just modeled heartfelt apologies (as well as meaningful manners) and my dd took them in and incorporated them into her behavior.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by griffin2004

to the OP, how does your DD feel when she's been wronged and the "wrong-doer" doesn't acknowledge and apologize? there are at least 2 parties involved in these situations, and I think it's good learning to help kids grow into that realization by acknowledging that their actions had a negative impact on another person;

people get all wigged out about "forcing" thank you's, apologies, manners, etc., but a courteous and compassionate attitude doesn't spring fully formed from kids' heads; it needs to be practiced, modeled, explained, reinforced just like everything else we teach our children

[Llyra]

My approach is to talk the issue out to a point where the child is feeling more calm and centered-- not still upset or angry about the conflict. Then I suggest an apology. If the child is reluctant to apologize, I'll take the child by the hand and approach the person myself, and make the apology myself-- "Friend, I'm sorry that DD pushed you. I think she was angry, and she wasn't thinking about what was the right thing to do. I know she'll try hard not to push again," for example.

I do believe in apologies, and in teaching children to apologize, but I don't see that it's necessary to "force" the issue-- that's just starting a power struggle I can't win. Because I really can't "force" them to say a word. I think a gentle, compassionate attitude is best taught by modeling.

[shanniesue2]

Honestly, I see more people on here (MDC in general) advocate against forced apologies rather than for them... But it could just be that we've read different threads.

Anyway, I teach early childhood and I don't force apologies. I also don't force my 2.5 yo to apologize, although b/c he hears DH and I say sorry if we've done something not so great, he will frequently say "sorry" if he does something like bump one of us. Anyway, what I do when one of my kiddos at school has done something hurtful is I focus on the victim and say "look at so and so... that really hurt them" or "they really feel sad b/c of what you said/did." Then I will say that when we've hurt someone it's important to try and make things better. I will say "you can help someone to feel better by asking if they're okay or by saying you didn't mean to or that you won't do it again. if you feel badly about being hurtful you can say 'I'm sorry'" Usually at this point the child will jump in a use one of these suggestions. If they don't, I model it to the child they hurt..."That really hurt your feelings that so and so did xyz. I'm really sorry that happened. Is there anything we can do to help?"

[Melanie_7773]

Saying sorry does not necessarily mean you are guilty. Perhaps you could let your DD know that if you accidentally bumped someone on a crowded bus, you would say sorry even though it's not really your fault and certainly not something you did on purpose, but you would still apologize.

Oh, we've had that conversation many times. But she is just exceptionally sensitive to any kind of suggestion that she's done something "wrong", and part of that continuum is that apologising, to her, would be an admission of having done something wrong. Even if it was an accident. Or at least, I think that's what's going on. I do think that if there was a minor issue with one of her friends at school she probably would spontaneously apologise, but I'm not there so can't say for sure.

to the OP, how does your DD feel when she's been wronged and the "wrong-doer" doesn't acknowledge and apologize?

I'm not sure. Much of the time I don't think she really notices. But her father does sometimes behave in ways that I wish he wouldn't. And she has on occasion come to me saying "Daddy did X and he didn't even say he's sorry!". <sigh> They're a lot alike, those two.

Even having said that, I don't think it's really a modeling issue. I'm confident that she knows when and why it's appropriate to apologise. I DO model it, as do the other adults in her life, most of the time, and she goes to a Montessori school which is generally a pretty respectful environment. Certainly her little brother, at not yet two years old, often apologises without being prompted.

Honestly, I see more people on here (MDC in general) advocate against forced apologies rather than for them... But it could just be that we've read different threads.

I've seen it here and elsewhere. There was a recent thread in this forum where many posters suggested that they would insist on an apology from their child to an adult neighbour. And I'm not suggesting that's inappropriate, only that it wouldn't work with my oldest. Perhaps though for those people that's not a "forced" apology, because I think a lot of kids in that position would just apologise and it wouldn't be a big deal. I've seen it in other people's kids who will behave in ways my daughter wouldn't even dream of, but then apologise (upon being told to) without a second's hesitation.

Anyway, interesting conversation. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.

[mama2cal&darby]

I have never asked my kids (or anyone for that matter) to apologize to anyone. I absolutely don't believe an apology is something to be requested, demanded or certainly coerced! An apology, IMO, is worthless if not offered freely and sincerely. Once I start trying to force (in any way) my kids to give one I am teaching them to be disingenuous. I teach my kids what it means to be sorry for something we have done and talk about some of the ways we can try to make amends if we regret what we have done or what has happened.
It always bugs me when I see parents telling their kids to apologize without asking whether or not they actually FEEL sorry. To me it becomes all about apearances rather than anything genuine going on or empathy being learnt.

[Ligeia]

I agree that children shouldn't be forced into an apology that doesn't mean anything. I think that's teaching something entirely different which is not the intention. When dd does something inappropriate to someone I point out how the wronged party is really sad about xyz and I bet they would feel better if you apologized/asked them if they're ok/hugged them/offered your help with cleaning up/etc.
My xdh focuses on forced apology for dd and it seems that now she's learned that she can hurt someone, say she's sorry and everything's automatically ok even if it means nothing. She'll do the same thing again sometimes, voluntarily apologize and then walk away like it just erases what she just did. Its like an easy out where she doesn't have to face anything about her behavior. I'm with pp's who have said it means so much more if kids learn to offer some kind of genuine gesture through us modelling that behavior and suggesting helpful ideas when something happens.