throwing fits whenever I say no

[seren]

My dd 2.5 has started throwing a fit every time we tell her no. It doesn't matter what it is. She cries, falls on the floor, stomps her feet. I am a recovering spanker (was raised by a spanker) and I do NOT want to spank her. She doesn't listen when I try to talk to her. She is turning into a brat, and I am being serious. I recently saw a mom and son at church. He was hitting his mom in the head with his toy truck and she was telling him to be nice to her. And he just kept saying he didn't want to be nice to her and kept hitting her. And it was HARD. I absolutely do not want my child to be like this. Please help me!

[myrrhmaid]

I feel for ya momma!
Congrats on doing what I feel is the right thing-not spanking.
Maybe try being clear on what behavior you want from her. Saying no is not effective when it comes to redirecting behavior in my experience.
Try saying
get down
don't climb up there
put that down
stop
don't touch
don't hit
gentle
hands off
later
get down
I think you probably get the idea...
I save no for dangerous circumstances that mean stop immediately and say it very emphatically, with the intent of getting attention and stopping behavior.
Please realize her fit behavior is an immature reaction to displeasure that she will grow out of.
Encourage her to use her words.
Hang in there momma!
HTH
Love, Laura

[dotcommama]

What do you do when she throws a tantrum?

My suggestion would be if you need to say no - say it, explain in as clear a manner as possible why it's a no (ex: no you may not pull the cats tail, that hurts the cat.)

Then if your child throws a fit, so be it. Walk away and/or ignore it. If she realizes that she's not getting what she wants by throwing a tantrum and she's not getting your attention with it, she'll give up on them.

I also want to say that you can discipline your children without spanking and still have children who behave well. Gentle discipline does not mean no discipline. Read the boards here for lots of great ideas on gentle discipline. You may also want to read How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk I think it is written by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish.

[gardeningmom]

My only advice is after you say no just stick to it. Never give in or she will think the fit will benefit her. Hang in there and she will eventually see that having a fit is getting her nowhere.

[seren]

I will definitaly rephrase myself. When she throws a fit she usually gets put on time out. My mom always says only put htem on time out until they are done crying. As soon as they quit they can get down. I no realize how bad that advice is. Now she says immediately, "I'm done crying now." Even if she hasn't cried. Dh will tell her she didn't cry, so she will fake cry and then say it again. I will start just walking away if she does throw a fit. I have been trying to use the positive/negative reinforcement Positive/negative punishment system. It seems to work very well, as long as I keep at it. I'm trying.

[Piglet68]

I feel as if I'm going against the tone of many of the posters here but....here goes:

I think it's pretty unfair when we call it a "fit" and assume it's some manipulative means of "getting their way". I don't think walking away from an upset child does anything except send the clear message that YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER.

If you were crying over something that upset you, how would you feel if somebody stood there telling you that you had no right to be upset and basically got angry at you for feeling that way?

When I have to say no to my daughter, I am very sympathetic. Her feelings are hurt, or she's angry, or sad and these are difficult emotions for little people to handle. They can't control themselves as readily as we do. When my daughter starts to cry, or throws herself on the floor, I am loving and comforting and sympathetic. I tell her I understand she is angry/sad whatever. I tell her I'm sorry that she is upset. I rub her back, or hold her if she wants me to. Obviously, I don't change my mind about whatever I said "no" to. But I fail to see why you can't be 100% consistent with your "no" and yet be sympathetic and loving towards your child when they are understandably upset.

[mamaduck]

I agree with Piglet. You can comfort, comisserate, and validate feelings without "giving in" to whatever the initial trigger was. It teaches a child that it is good to express their feelings, and it helps them learn to do it in more constructive ways.

I think it is easy to dismiss the feelings of a baby/toddler because the things they get emotional about seem insignificant to an adult. But to a little kid, feelings of dissapoint, anger, and frustration over seemingly small things can feel HUGE to them. Its hard to be a little kid, and its hard to have other people dictate what you can have or not. Its necessary, and its important that parents continue to set boundries, but we can do that and be sympathetic to their strong feelings at the same time.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by Piglet68
...I think it's pretty unfair when we call it a "fit" and assume it's some manipulative means of "getting their way". I don't think walking away from an upset child does anything except send the clear message that YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER.

If you were crying over something that upset you, how would you feel if somebody stood there telling you that you had no right to be upset and basically got angry at you for feeling that way?...

Who said that parents should tell their children that they have no right to be upset and to get angry at their kids for feeling that way? Who said that you should walk away from a child who is "crying"? We're talking about teaching kids appropriate and effective ways to express themselves. We're talking about "throwing a fit", not "crying". Personally, I would walk away from an adult throwing a tantrum just as surely as I would walk away from a child doing it. No one has the right to subject me to that, just like I don't subject other people to that kind of behavior.

The OP said her daughter is "throwing fits" everytime she says "no". I don't think there is anything wrong with walking away when a fit starts. That's not saying "YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER", it's saying "you need to express this differently".

My son threw maybe five tantrums in his entire toddlerhood. Each time I calmly said, "I'm sorry, I can't help you when you behave like this. I'm going to go sit on the couch, when you are ready, you can come talk to me." (how that gets translated into "YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER", I'm not sure) and left him screaming on the floor while I went into the next room. When he was ready, he'd come find me and we'd talk it out.

I believe in Gentle Discipline. I have never spanked/hit my child. I go months without yelling at him and I'm working on not yelling at all. But I had also always expected that the same level of respect from him as I show to him (at age appropriate levels, of course)

[Piglet68]

Originally posted by pugmadmama
We're talking about "throwing a fit", not "crying".

I thought I was clear that I see no distinction. What you call "throwing a fit" has very negative connotations re: motive. I consider all such expressions of emotions to be real, honest, and every bit as deserving of comfort and validation as any emotion I myself might be experiencing. Just because I, as an adult, can control how I express that doesn't mean children automatically know how to.

Personally, I would walk away from an adult throwing a tantrum just as surely as I would walk away from a child doing it. No one has the right to subject me to that, just like I don't subject other people to that kind of behavior.

So you are assuming that children have the same level of understanding and control over their emotions as adults do? If an adult threw a tantrum I would be unimpressed. But to expect a 2.5 year old to know the difference, and/or have the emotional capacity to deliberately distinguish "controlled" from "uncontrolled" release of emotions is, IMO, unrealistic.

The OP said her daughter is "throwing fits" everytime she says "no". I don't think there is anything wrong with walking away when a fit starts. That's not saying "YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER", it's saying "you need to express this differently".

How is walking away from them giving them that message? Can you honestly say that if your DH came home and found you bawling on the floor, that an appropriate response would be to walk away from you and tell you to come see him when you're done??

What is wrong with being sympathetic? What is wrong with gently explaining that you know they are hurt/angry/sad and then help them to find ways to express themselves in a more appropriate manner?

edited b/c I should know better

[monkey's mom]

I'm with you, Piglet. Though to me, a tantrum is a *bigger* cry for help then "just crying." And therefore deserves a more sympathetic response.

I can't agree with the "just walk away" sentiment. This, to me, is not meeting the needs of my child. Hell, it's not even acknowledging them! I wouldn't walk away for any other emotional response, why would this time of *greater* need be an appropriate place to start?

Of course no one *wants* to hear a tantrum, or be around it, or whatever. But sometimes, as the mom, it ain't about me and what makes me comfortable.

[pugmadmama]

...

[mamaduck]

A child needs to be actively taught how to express feelings appropriately. We're talking here about a 2.5 year old -- at that age she is just barely beginning to learn how to do this. By comisserating and comforting a child, you are giving the child the "appropriate" language for expressing her feelings. Then when she is 3-4 years old, you can begin to direct her to use those words herself instead of throwing a "fit." But a "fit" is all that a younger child knows how to do when they have strong feelings. Even if a 2-3 year old seems verbal, it is still difficult to access "words" when they are very very upset. Sitting with, holding, and describing their feelings helps them to reherse and practise for when they are older.

If you just walk away -- they will stop crying because no one is listening. But the "tantrum" is not being replaced by constructive expressions. The feelings are just being internalized, and the child is left to feel that no one cares. Walking away from an angry/frustrated/sad child is the equivalent of CIO, IMO. Unless of course, the child expresses in no uncertain terms that they need some space and want to be alone.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by monkey's mom
...I can't agree with the "just walk away" sentiment. This, to me, is not meeting the needs of my child. Hell, it's not even acknowledging them! I wouldn't walk away for any other emotional response, why would this time of *greater* need be an appropriate place to start?...

Because during a tantrum, some children are not hearing you and you are not helping by staying there. I tried talking my son through tantrums...all that happend was a five minute tantrum turned into a 20 minute meltdown.

Some children need the company and some children need the solitude. My son is 11 now and it's not unusual when he is upset for him to go to his room for some "alone time." and sometimes that includes crying. It's hard to hear him crying in there! But I know from experience, when I force myself on him, he gets more upset.

Here's the thing...I'm the exact same way! Most of the time, I'd much rather have a good, five minute cry by myself than try to explain to my DH what is bothering me. It just drags it out and makes it worse.

Children are different, parenting is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. What works great for one kid (ie sitting next to them through their tantrums), doesn't work at all for another kid. Respecting a child's personality and temperment does not mean that you are telling them their feelings don't matter or that you are doing what is easier for you. Sitting on the couch for those five minutes, waiting for my son to come to me, was hard! But staying with him during his tantrums had not worked and walking away did work.

[mamaduck]

[Piglet68]

You were right, pugmadmama. My last two comments were rude. I have edited them out.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by mamaduck
... But the "tantrum" is not being replaced by constructive expressions. The feelings are just being internalized, and the child is left to feel that no one cares. Walking away from an angry/frustrated/sad child is the equivalent of CIO, IMO. Unless of course, the child expresses in no uncertain terms that they need some space and want to be alone.

I completely disagree. My son was only 18 months old when we went through the tantrum phase. As I said, I tried helping him through them, which was a disaster. When I walked away, I told him where I'd be and to come to me once he was done with his tantrum. Each time he'd come to me and we'd talk about what was bothering him in the first place. And, once I started handling them that way, he stopped having tantrums and began to turn to me much sooner in his "I'm getting upset" thought process...at 18 months old he learned that! How is that leaving a child to "internalize" and being left to feel that no one cares???

I've seen parents "talk" kids through tantrums where it worked and I've seen it go the way it went with my son (it just keeps getting worse and worse). Is it so hard to imagine that some kids, just like some adults, need a few minutes alone to collect themselves and that any stimulation, no matter how well intentioned, is only going to set them off further?

[monkey's mom]

Originally posted by pugmadmama
We're talking about teaching kids appropriate and effective ways to express themselves.

No one has the right to subject me to that, just like I don't subject other people to that kind of behavior.

it's saying "you need to express this differently".

"I'm sorry, I can't help you when you behave like this."

Pugmadmama, these are the things that led me to believe that your leaving a tantruming child was more about punishment and less about helping them by giving them some space.

I don't doubt that some children do not want or need ppl near them. And, as others have said, in those cases I absolutely think that the child's wishes should be respected.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by monkey's mom
Pugmadmama, these are the things that led me to believe that your leaving a tantruming child was more about punishment and less about helping them by giving them some space...

I never said it was punishment. It wasn't. How can you even punish a kid having a tantrum? They are already miserable.

I said it was about teaching kids "appropriate and effective ways to express themselves" (which tantrums are not). I also said that no one has the right to subject me to that (by which I meant screaming, floor pounding, etc.) I said also said that I said, "I'm sorry, I can't help you when you behave like this." (I would also say that to my son when he would whine, hit or throw things)

I'm getting the feeling that maybe some people here think tantrums are natural. I don't. I think most tantrums are the result of being over-tired or over-stimulated or mis-understood. Tantrums can also be something kids "try out" to see if it will get them what they want. I don't think tantrums are natural, I don't think a child having tantrums often or regularly over a long period of time is good for the child. I think tantrums are behavior that needs to be modified ASAP. Not by force, cruelity or punishment but with seriousness and swiftness.

[Korwynne]

My daugher is 2.5 and fortunately very verbal. There are days when she's overtired, cranky, not feeling well or whatever, and on those days we have tantrums at times.

When she starts one, I generally tell her that I'm sorry she's upset and ask if she'd like to cuddle, or if she needs to be alone. If she wants me, she'll come to me and quiets down fairly quickly (with the help fo my hair and her finger : ) or else she'll run into their playhouse and shut the door.

Personally, I feel like if I've told her I've noticed how she's feeling and that I'm sorry she's having a rough time and then given her an option to either be with me or not, then i've met her needs adequately. If she wants cuddling to help her calm down, that's great, but if she doesn't - then at least she knows that I'm around if she needs me.

That being said, I know that won't work with all 2.5 year olds, but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth too..

BTW, if my daughter pulled something like that little boy did with the truck, I would confiscate it and tell her that the truck had to go to time out for awhile because it was choosing to not be nice to Mommy. It makes her mad for a minute, but it seems ot work for us...

[gardeningmom]

I have to agree with pugmadmamma on everything she said. I don't believe that tantrums are a form of communication, but a form of manipulation. My 14 month old will point at something she may want, if it is something appropriate I may give it to her , but if it something she shouldn't have I don't. Generally she'll whine or stomp her little feet if she doesn't get it. If she does the whining or stomping she definitely isn't going to get what she is pointing at because she would see those actions as a way of getting what she wants. I don't want to encourage that behaviour. Does that make sense to anyone?