"discipline" overkill

[Rose-Roget]

So the background is that ds is in 1st grade at a public "Montessori." The teacher started with one shameful, negative discipline system - the green/yellow/red apples on the wall that the worms (with names) were placed on according to the kid's behavior. Well, I mentioned that this seemed really shaming to the kids and that I though Montessori, in particular (as should any good discipline system, imo), focused more on self-reflection, environmental modifications, and maybe something positive (as opposed to shaming).

Fast forward 4 weeks. They now have: 1. The original green/yellow/red but she gives a zillion warnings before moving them and when they do move, they do a self-reflection worksheet, 2. A marble jar to earn something extra-special as a class when it fills up (like part of a movie or an extra recess), 3. Caramel apple Fridays if they have a good week, 4. A cube system to get a star if they have 3-5 cubes left at the end of the day, and then they get a special treat once they have 5 stars, and 5. The opportunity to do "Challenge" worksheets (mazes, word searches) once they finish their workplans.

It seems like there is something new every week! And - get this - it's NOT working! The principal had to yell at the room today when one kid was rolling over works and knocked over the marbles, and the rest of the class got too loud (while the teacher was out of the room). As ds put it to me, "By the way, the principal thinks it's a real Montessori because he said, 'This is not Montessori behavior'!"

[AllyRae]

Good grief! That's a lot of systems the kids have to remember!

None of those sound like Montessori "discipline". In DS's Montessori school, they don't do any of those things. Their behavior isn't really even a point of discussion. They work on self-discipline because Maria Montessori was really really against children working for adult-given rewards...they had to work for their own intrinsic rewards. They behave because they want to--not because they will be rewarded for it (and in fact, the more adult-given rewards, the LESS the children want to do something).

In DS's class, they have a peace table that they use if two children are having a conflict. If it's just one child misbehaving, they get a warning of the environment rules, and if they still can't follow the rules successfully, the teacher and child do a behavior contract where there child writes what the rules are and what the child can do in order to be successful at following the rules. Sometimes a natural consequence is in there (for example, one day, DS used a swear on the bus to the nearby college for PE. In his behavior contract, the teacher and DS decided that DS would sit next to a teacher on the bus for a few weeks so that he can be reminded to use appropriate words.)

But in general, if the environment is prepared well, there is absolutely no need for all of that outside reward fluff. It sounds like the directress is really really ineffective at keeping the environment prepared.

[carmel23]

have you scheduled an observation?

[MattBronsil]

So the principal said, "This is not Montessori behavior."
Um...isn't that YOUR point, Rose? :-)

[Rose-Roget]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

So the principal said, "This is not Montessori behavior."
Um...isn't that YOUR point, Rose? :-)

Frankly, it's not behavior for any classroom in my book, particularly a Montessori classroom. Unfortunately, if she goes to the district for behavior support, they're going to give her a list of behavior modification strategies, rather than helping her look at the classroom as a whole.

I don't know that I'm allowed to observe, frankly. When I asked for an observation before ds went there, I was given a tour. When I've worked in the public schools, observations are often discouraged or looked upon negatively. When I asked the teacher to volunteer in the classroom, she never responded. I don't think she wants me (or anyone) there. We have conferences next week - I think I'll ask about volunteering again then, and also say I'd like to observe. People get really touchy, though, when they think someone else is trying to tell them how to do their job.

Having all of these systems makes me sad. Ds was talking about how he really wanted to get to the "challenge sheets" so he was going to try to get his work done quickly. I tried to talk to him about having pride in his work, enjoying the process of learning new things, the good feeling of accomplishing something...no, he wants the worksheets.

[AllyRae]

DS's montessori school *encourages* observations. In fact, three times a year, each parent *has* to observe as part of the parent teacher conference...it starts off with a 3 hour observation, and then you meet with the teacher.

[carmel23]

I don't know, I think the observation might be helpful because maybe there are some extreme behavior challenges, or personality conflicts in the class that are especially hard for the teacher. It might give you a better picture as to WHY there are so many systems. Maybe some kids respond to some, and other kids get another system.

I have a hard time understanding something if I can't see it.

My kids have been in all different types of schools, Catholic, Public and Public Montessori. I was always able to observe by asking the teacher. If she huffs and haws, don't waste your time and go straight to the administrator/ principal. State that you are going to observe your child's class, because you are very concerned and are thinking of pulling you child based on some of the things he is telling you, and you need to see what is going on, to verify whether this is a good match for your child.

My kids are in a public charter that is very authentically Montessori. So I know it is a possibility.

Honestly, I don't know how kids can work in an environment where someone is rolling over their work. If this happens occasionally, then it might be okay. The level of discipline speaks to me that the teacher is really struggling. I would want to know where the challenge is coming from before assuming that she is creating it herself.

[Rose-Roget]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

DS's montessori school *encourages* observations. In fact, three times a year, each parent *has* to observe as part of the parent teacher conference...it starts off with a 3 hour observation, and then you meet with the teacher.

Wow - what a great policy! I think it's wonderful when schools feel so open! It would be great for that to be part of this p-t conference, but it's not. We'll have 15 minutes to get an "update" from the teacher - probably something like, "Ds has a hard time focusing and completing his work. He can be impulsive. His handwriting is slow and can be hard to read. Academically, he's doing as well as the other kids on his grade level and better in reading." (I know I have a good teacher when they say, "He is a really sharp kid! He can be a bit impulsive, but in the right environment and with the right level of materials, he really blossoms and gets engrossed in his works." Anyway, I digress.)

I might try to find a way of asking about all the "discipline" systems. Something like, "I wonder what it is about the environment that makes is so hard for the class to settle in and focus that you have to work so hard to implement 5 systems. Surely, there's something easier for you to modify than to have to juggle 5 systems!"

[Rose-Roget]

Carmel, I think we ended up posting at the same time earlier, so I hadn't read your post until just now.

I completely see your point about an observation helping me see the big picture. I am pretty singlularly-focussed - it's just been such a frustrating experience so far that I think my mind has closed since we started. I need to try to open it.

I went on a field trip with the class last week, and we had 2 of the students at ds's birthday party, so I have a little insight into the personalities. I can see some things that make it a trickier-than-average class. There are 14 boys and 10 girls. A large number of the boys in there are very active. Ds is actually on the "tamer" side of the group (blows my mind!), but he does have sensory difficulties so a noisy room exacerbates his difficulty focussing or his impulsivity. I noticed on the field trip, while the kids weren't out of control (and were actually pretty well-behaved, overall), the boys wrestled around in line a bit, and the teacher just didn't take natural measures to modify the environment - like standing right next to them or sitting with the group of boys who were clustered in the very middle of the row at the play (until I gently suggested that one of us sit with them and she agreed that would be smart).

I think a lot of people opt to put their kids in Montessori if they aren't succeeding in the traditional classrooms for a variety of reasons, so what happens is that the Montessori classrooms may become unfairly weighted with active kids. Honestly, I chose Montessori because I love the philosophy AND because (when done right) it naturally incorporates a lot of strategies to help ds with some of his specific needs. So I get that she has a challenging group. Impossible? No. Could some environmental modification help? Probably, but like you said, I should go look.

[Aeress]

It sounds like the teacher may not know how to handle "discipline" when outside the behavior modification program.

Is she a new teacher? (Can't remember if you mentioned this)

There are many positive ways to teach a child self discipline, which can be done in a short whole class presentation or in a small group.

We do "bubble" work, which is about keeping your body inside an imaginary bubble. In big spaces, you have a big bubble that allows you to move your body freely. When in small spaces, walking in line etc, your bubble is small and your movement is small. You can't bump into someone or your bubble would burst. Now, young kids, even up to 7 enjoy this activity. It can really help children understand how to move their body.
To start I use a hoolahoop, then move to something smaller and then finally a small piece of ribbon that just fits their body (or whatever material works).
The goal is to practice this often with real objects and then move to imaginary bubbles.
We also use a "quiet timer" to practice working silently and gradually increase the time.

Would your teacher be willing to try something like this?

[Rose-Roget]

No, she's not a new teacher. In fact, she used to teach traditional in a pretty rough area before moving to the suburbs where she taught traditional and has been in Montessori for at least 3 years.

I'm not sure what she'll try. She's at least tried to accommodate some of the things I've brought up about ds, but some of it may just be a facade to get me to back off. I don't know if my suggesting ways to teach behavior would be welcomed from me or probably any parent. I don't want to overstep my bounds, and if the situation appeared to be under control, I wouldn't consider it.

Maybe I'll ask at conferences, see if I can schedule an observation, and then talk to the assistant principal if things don't fall into place.